Discussion Random Discussion

[StFly]

Taxing billionaires and big corporations would just be good governance to me. Billionaires are actually an abomination. It is crazy how much a billion dollars actually is. I know mega rich people in Oz and that's like $20 million in assets. That will see you live a high enough standard of living that you couldn't wish for anything more. They should be taxed at a stupid rate on all new profit. At the moment they pay nothing and most are getting there through exploiting natural resources or extremely beneficial assets usually handed to them through shit government decision making.

TBF everything is skewed to selfishness that there would be no objective way to actually redistribute wealth as it's already well versed in buggery that without a proper conscious decision by societies to self regulate you'd end up with no lasting change and if we were immortal we'd be having the same discussion centuries in the future.

Giuven that we still haven't evolved from "I don't like your tone/skin colour/existence/other reason here, you die now" there is literally no chance that we as a species are mature enough to actually redistribute it where everyone benefits and no one gets screwed by someone else.

Unpopular opinion, but scorched earthing economies would be a brilliant thing as the foundation is based on swindling and is rotten to the core.

 

[Crusty Undies]

See the guy is a self declared genius.

He clearly has no lack of knowledge

No I was implying that johhny was incapable of understanding a concept that the vast majority of people understand, not that I'm a genius.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

You think that's bad, I'm so arrogant I don't even bother telling you all about my superior intellect.... it's beneath me to brag to the simple.

But you're different Gringo , you're actually right about everything.

 

[Drake Huggins]

I’m not buying the message and don’t see anything wrong with criticism of the message.

What I don’t see any point in is a personal takedown of Greta Thunberg, what’s the point?. The people who idolise Greta are the same ones who believe the message she and those surrounding her are pushing. She has presumably already been diagnosed with high functioning autism and several comorbidities which fit neatly into what we’ve seen of Greta.

Personally I think her facial features are completely normal and common enough for the region she comes from, given her father and mothers appearance her looks are unremarkable. I have just looked through 100 plus pictures of typical FAS children and I’m sorry I just don’t see it.

Anyway it’s a pretty pointless exercise imo, let’s concentrate on the merits of the message and the motivation of those using Greta to promote it. I’m not a climate change denier either, I’m just not on board with the wealth redistribution scheme dressed up as a climate crisis and the more sensational claims being used to drive that agenda.

Indeed, YW. Wec are arguing about an irrelevant

I have my own ideas about clean energy research, research funding and access to intellectual property as it relates to climate change, hell the U.N. might even like some of them.

Seriously - are you saying you don't look at the source of material as long as it agrees with your thinking - wow - that's a solid path to enlightenment.

With that sort of attitude its no wonder we still have flat earthers.

The path to knowledge comes from questioning Johnnyray - not blind acceptance of that which you currently believe in!!!

Always question the source - its a simple maxim of critical thinking.

When the principals of CEI produce some peer reviewed research in a field where they have experience I will listen them but they are not climate scientists they are nothing more than (paid) bloggers.

One question - when you are sick do you go the Doctor or the mechanic?

I agree with most of that, so why do so many people go to Greta when looking for answers?

 

[Drake Huggins]

Taxing billionaires and big corporations would just be good governance to me. Billionaires are actually an abomination. It is crazy how much a billion dollars actually is. I know mega rich people in Oz and that's like $20 million in assets. That will see you live a high enough standard of living that you couldn't wish for anything more. They should be taxed at a stupid rate on all new profit. At the moment they pay nothing and most are getting there through exploiting natural resources or extremely beneficial assets usually handed to them through shit government decision making.

That would be a good start, Gringo. Imagine filling the coffers with the taxes Apple, Microsoft, and, gulp, the Catholic Church, should be paying? Tens of billions, being conservative. This is at the core of the problem. We pay and they have a phalanx of crooked lawyers, accountants, politicians and senior bureaucrats who maintain the status quo and continue to build their advantage.

It was one of the reasons I left policing. It finally dawned on me I was only policing to maintain the status quo, which is exactly what the elite want and need. The little guy gets smashed every time. The last straw was kids from Melbourne Grammar were caught dealing various illegal powders from a 7-11 across the road from our St'Kilda Rd. complex. Reasonably serious. Letters from the school, along with threats the matters would be "vigorously defended"
(has anyone ever half-heartedly defended the charges?) were issued. Meetings were held. No charges laid.

Can you imagine if the same thing happened at Sunshine Tech. or Dandenong High? The headlines would scream, "Cops bust massive drug operations in schools!" I walked not long after, fortunate to have another career to go to (a bit like your missus, Gringo).

It's why little Greta is manna from heaven for the elites from both sides (in fact they're all on the same side). Distract, divide and conquer. While we argue over her merits, the climate summit in Spain failed. That is a serious setback for the earth. What was in the media? Which seat little Greta was sitting in on her journey home from the conference. See my point? You and I, who are actually in furious agreement about the basic issues, are turned against each other in a petty argument about the extent of her disabilities. Get it?

The world has plenty of resources. Our masters create artificial shortages to frighten and control us. Remember the oil crisis, the vanishing ozone layer, climate change (the artist formerly known as global warming) the global financial crisis, et al? All man-made myths. When religion no longer scared us into submission, they just made up new shit. It's been the same ever since we lived in the caves.

 

[Drake Huggins]

You think that's bad, I'm so arrogant I don't even bother telling you all about my superior intellect.... it's beneath me to brag to the simple.

At least you're willing to have a crack. I genuinely admire that. Most just give in. On both sides. Keep punching, brother. Conflict, if it doesn't destroy us, makes us grow and learn. If we didn't have conflicting opinions, we'd still be living in caves arguing over the colour of the curtains.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Simply highlighting that self interest groups and climate catastrophe nutters are full of shit...just like Greta, a 15 year old kid that lives in a first world country and has been brainwashed and used by the same.

Plus scientists can be wrong, probably like the current situation where they think they are the scientific pinnacle of Earth's history like those scientists in the articles.

X Files? I love that show. Too bad the last season wasn't that good. But I guess it's more realistic a plot than the stuff highlighted in the doomer climate articles over the last 100+ years.

I'm still waiting for the ice age, acid rain, famines, ice caps disappearing, etc. to actually happen...

"Simply highlighting that self interest groups and climate catastrophe nutters are full of shit"

And you are attempting to that by - drum roll please!!!! - posting a link from a self interest group which has no scientific credibility whatsoever (in your terms - full of s***).

I've got to hand it to you though - if in your mind that's all it takes to constitute "proof" of something, then in your own mind you'll "win" every argument.

Me - well I set a higher bar on the burden of proof. Here's a potted history of climate science - perhaps you could have a look at it to help you understand whats actually happening.

The History of Climate Science

Introduction The fact that carbon dioxide is a 'greenhouse gas' - a gas that prevents a certain amount of heat radiation escaping back to space and thus maintains a generally warm climate on Earth, goes back to an idea that was first conceived, though not specifically with respect to CO2, nearly...

skepticalscience.com

 

[SaintsSeptember]

That would be a good start, Gringo. Imagine filling the coffers with the taxes Apple, Microsoft, and, gulp, the Catholic Church, should be paying? Tens of billions, being conservative. This is at the core of the problem. We pay and they have a phalanx of crooked lawyers, accountants, politicians and senior bureaucrats who maintain the status quo and continue to build their advantage.

It was one of the reasons I left policing. It finally dawned on me I was only policing to maintain the status quo, which is exactly what the elite want and need. The little guy gets smashed every time. The last straw was kids from Melbourne Grammar were caught dealing various illegal powders from a 7-11 across the road from our St'Kilda Rd. complex. Reasonably serious. Letters from the school, along with threats the matters would be "vigorously defended"
(has anyone ever half-heartedly defended the charges?) were issued. Meetings were held. No charges laid.

Can you imagine if the same thing happened at Sunshine Tech. or Dandenong High? The headlines would scream, "Cops bust massive drug operations in schools!" I walked not long after, fortunate to have another career to go to (a bit like your missus, Gringo).

It's why little Greta is manna from heaven for the elites from both sides (in fact they're all on the same side). Distract, divide and conquer. While we argue over her merits, the climate summit in Spain failed. That is a serious setback for the earth. What was in the media? Which seat little Greta was sitting in on her journey home from the conference. See my point? You and I, who are actually in furious agreement about the basic issues, are turned against each other in a petty argument about the extent of her disabilities. Get it?

The world has plenty of resources. Our masters create artificial shortages to frighten and control us. Remember the oil crisis, the vanishing ozone layer, climate change (the artist formerly known as global warming) the global financial crisis, et al? All man-made myths. When religion no longer scared us into submission, they just made up new shit. It's been the same ever since we lived in the caves.

They do love scaremongering. I remember buying a secondhand pc cheap, because people were getting rid of them because of the millennium bug. ( Most PC's the bug consisted of manually changing a setting from 19 to 20 ). Afterwards when nothing went wrong they said, good our warnings worked.

Resources are finite though, and we keep breaking records of how much we rip into it.
I keep thinking about it like i've just bought a litre of bourbon, its there , i have all i could possibly need but then after just <<redacted>> i suddenly notice that there is only a bit left. ( funny, i only remember drinking a few glasses ).

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I agree with most of that, so why do so many people go to Greta when looking for answers?

Because, with many of the religions looking like psychotic basket cases these days, people want to fill the void, whether its worshipping the gods of environmentalism, veganism or whatever.
Greta gives them a figurehead that delivers the words of god. I hope she doesn't end up crucified.

 

[Johnnyrayflamingo]

Because, with many of the religions looking like psychotic basket cases these days, people want to fill the void, whether its worshipping the gods of environmentalism, veganism or whatever.
Greta gives them a figurehead that delivers the words of god. I hope she doesn't end up crucified.

She'll end up a forgotten human mess unfortunately in 5-10 year's time once her used by date has expired but I bet those that have used and abused her will take no responsibility.

This whole global warming farce has become a worldwide cult.

 

[Johnnyrayflamingo]

Johnny I'm playing the man because if I were to play the ball it'd go so far over your head you'd ask if the point was a bird or a plane.
Lolololol!!!!

Ok. Coming from someone that thinks 16 year old kids would do better in government than experienced and educated adults....ok.

 

[jwikked]

I agree with most of that, so why do so many people go to Greta when looking for answers?

No one is going to her for answers. She ended up being the voice of her generation, their concerns are being channeled through her when she speaks to world leaders and others from the platform she’s been given.
She’s going to those in charge for answers.
It really says something when people would rather focus their attacks onto a 16 year old girl rather than the message itself. Sure, she may get some facts wrong but it doesn’t mean everything she’s spoken about should be disregarded.

If climate change can be proven to be a hoax, the scientific community will accept it as fact. Just prove it isn’t happening with the facts, not hard, right? Lay out your facts, have them peer reviewed and see if they actually stack up.

 

[gringo2011]

That would be a good start, Gringo. Imagine filling the coffers with the taxes Apple, Microsoft, and, gulp, the Catholic Church, should be paying? Tens of billions, being conservative. This is at the core of the problem. We pay and they have a phalanx of crooked lawyers, accountants, politicians and senior bureaucrats who maintain the status quo and continue to build their advantage.

It was one of the reasons I left policing. It finally dawned on me I was only policing to maintain the status quo, which is exactly what the elite want and need. The little guy gets smashed every time. The last straw was kids from Melbourne Grammar were caught dealing various illegal powders from a 7-11 across the road from our St'Kilda Rd. complex. Reasonably serious. Letters from the school, along with threats the matters would be "vigorously defended"
(has anyone ever half-heartedly defended the charges?) were issued. Meetings were held. No charges laid.

Can you imagine if the same thing happened at Sunshine Tech. or Dandenong High? The headlines would scream, "Cops bust massive drug operations in schools!" I walked not long after, fortunate to have another career to go to (a bit like your missus, Gringo).

It's why little Greta is manna from heaven for the elites from both sides (in fact they're all on the same side). Distract, divide and conquer. While we argue over her merits, the climate summit in Spain failed. That is a serious setback for the earth. What was in the media? Which seat little Greta was sitting in on her journey home from the conference. See my point? You and I, who are actually in furious agreement about the basic issues, are turned against each other in a petty argument about the extent of her disabilities. Get it?

The world has plenty of resources. Our masters create artificial shortages to frighten and control us. Remember the oil crisis, the vanishing ozone layer, climate change (the artist formerly known as global warming) the global financial crisis, et al? All man-made myths. When religion no longer scared us into submission, they just made up new shit. It's been the same ever since we lived in the caves.

Not to mention our federal government that has plebiscites, royal commissions and a trillion over priced consultancies to make the decisions they get elected and paid to do for us.

To me Greta is a nothing. I choose to have a passing interest. I certainly wouldn't ask her any answers. She's novel because in a generation that spends 15 hours a day self aggrandising on their phones she gives a shit about an issue. I respect that, doesn't mean I need her to be a messiah. The media love novel for 5 minutes, will build her up then ridicule her when she isn't Jesus second coming. That or some nutter will shoot her and she'll be a martyr.

Climate change is real, I know a scientist who works in weather patterns that is from Europe and lives in Melbourne he for a long time wouldn't commit to being convinced without seeing enough data to make a call. He's now seen enough to commit to saying it's man made and has increased significantly more than natural since industrialisation. He's an actual scientist with a specialisation that I'm willing to take the word of.

My cousin works fo the UN, he started in computer science and works in major projects. He says also that the data is irrefutable. The UN aren't some corporation that wants to make money. He works on things like Ebola containment and epidemiology especially containment in large scale refugee camps. He is n management and goes to the meeting to decide where their limited resources will be spent. Climate change is making it harder for them because on top of war and other common reasons for displacement they are also getting drier conditions that push people into camps.

I find it amazing that people don't believe in climate change myself, I'm pretty sceptical about most things but as you have said in detective work, follow the money trail. Climate scientists don't profit out of climate science. Under some governments funding might come easier but there is huge money for anyone who would be willing to deny it.

Corporations who profit from high carbon emissions do how ever have something to lose. To me it is much more likely that the deniers are the ones profiting from it and so probably on the wrong side of history. If you look at the Mineral Council links to the Libs at the moment it's a pretty uncomfortable conflict of interest.

Coal industry tightens embrace with Coalition as ex minister becomes MCA chair

The links between the Coalition and the coal lobby grow ever tighter, as new Minerals Council chair Helen Coonan seeks to fast-track new coal mine approvals.

reneweconomy.com.au

 

[gringo2011]

Ok. Coming from someone that thinks 16 year old kids would do better in government than experienced and educated adults....ok.

They probably would, the governments are not serving the bulk of people any more. At least the kids haven't have had time to become cynical mud suckers.

 

[Stewart66]

They probably would, the governments are not serving the bulk of people any more. At least the kids haven't have had time to become cynical mud suckers.

Or worse Lobbyists

 

[Yawkey way]

I agree with most of that, so why do so many people go to Greta when looking for answers?

It’s pretty clever when you analyse the situation and ask why Greta.

Let’s face it she would at best be sitting outside parliament protesting unless people in positions of power/influence saw something they could use. The use of a child might just get the attention of the dubious fence sitters even older people who had perhaps just tuned out might have been shocked enough to listen. How many parents with children may have paused and though of what the future holds for them and are they doing enough to make sure their future is a bright one.

Then of course she gives young people a voice and a seat at the table or at least the appearance of one anyway. I doubt too many people are going to Greta for answers but you can’t argue that her message has been heard across the generations.

So I’d have to say it’s been a pretty effective campaign, they didn’t get what they wanted in Madrid but my guess is they’ve made ground in the court of public opinion. We’ve seen recently several examples of how important that can be, ignore the masses and you loose elections. I wonder if voters were polled now where would they rate climate change as an election issue, I’m betting it’s jumped up a couple of places at least.

 

[Yawkey way]

They probably would, the governments are not serving the bulk of people any more. At least the kids haven't have had time to become cynical mud suckers.

The people who lost the election for British Labour hate the working class

The Labour Party should have pitched its tent with working people but it did not.

www.theage.com.au

I thought this was worth reading as it’s relevant to Australia and the U.S. as well.

 

[Johnnyrayflamingo]

The silent majority won the elections in the US, UK and Aus. They are just normal people mostly that don't want too much govenment and other people in their lives telling them what to do. The sort of people that just want to get on with it, work, pay their bills, raise a family, watch some footy , etc. They usually won't kick or scream or whinge or protest in public so that's why you never hear from them very much...aka the silent majority.

Its clear as mud!

 

[gringo2011]

The silent majority won the elections in the US, UK and Aus. They are just normal people mostly that don't want too much govenment and other people in their lives telling them what to do. The sort of people that just want to get on with it, work, pay their bills, raise a family, watch some footy , etc.

How are they more silent than anyone else? I think most people in Australia want that, some just want to plan longer term. Anyway politics is as bad on both sides as it has been in decades. It's a pretty sad state of affairs to me. Uninspiring career politicians who are more interested in cashing in than leading. Special interest groups with enormous political clout paying off politicians of all persuasions.

I have given up on expecting anything beyond stupidity from any of them. They are ****ing up the economy and like the rest of the world did they will say they can't afford to fund essential services and bring in austerity measures. All so the mega rich and corporations don't have to pay tax and funnel it into political "donations".

 

[Drake Huggins]

Check out Naomi Seibt on Youtube. She's been described as the "antidote to Greta". MSM ignores her. I wonder why?

So here we are discussing an ill little girl, while summits collapse and the world burns. See how clever our masters are at dividing us and distracting us from what really matters? How dare they!

 

[Dr Spaceman]

 

[Crusty Undies]

Ok. Coming from someone that thinks 16 year old kids would do better in government than experienced and educated adults....ok.

Experienced and educated adults like scomo who deny science at every conceivable turn? Yes. In fact, I believe a comatose, geriatric sea turtle would do better in government by simply doing nothing than actively hurting 98% of the population as our current one is.

 

[Drake Huggins]

No one is going to her for answers. She ended up being the voice of her generation, their concerns are being channeled through her when she speaks to world leaders and others from the platform she’s been given.
She’s going to those in charge for answers.
It really says something when people would rather focus their attacks onto a 16 year old girl rather than the message itself. Sure, she may get some facts wrong but it doesn’t mean everything she’s spoken about should be disregarded.

If climate change can be proven to be a hoax, the scientific community will accept it as fact. Just prove it isn’t happening with the facts, not hard, right? Lay out your facts, have them peer reviewed and see if they actually stack up.

Depends on whose research you choose to believe, jwikked. Thousands of credible scientists have published peer reviewed findings that throw great doubt on alarmist Climate Warming figures.

The IPCC uses only papers that involve human effects on the climate. It doesn't even look at non man made causes of climate change.

That means we get a very biased and narrow view in what is causing environmental changes. In fact, that spproach is downright reckless, unscientific and disingenuous.

Balance, please. All the facts please and stop trying to shout and shut down those who question the so called conventional wisdom. The question is far from settled.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

How are they more silent than anyone else? I think most people in Australia want that, some just want to plan longer term. Anyway politics is as bad on both sides as it has been in decades. It's a pretty sad state of affairs to me. Uninspiring career politicians who are more interested in cashing in than leading. Special interest groups with enormous political clout paying off politicians of all persuasions.

I have given up on expecting anything beyond stupidity from any of them. They are ******* up the economy and like the rest of the world did they will say they can't afford to fund essential services and bring in austerity measures. All so the mega rich and corporations don't have to pay tax and funnel it into political "donations".

I get automated polls before the election, i hang up on them wondering who the hell bothers to respond to that crap.
Is that silent enough?

 

[CursingFijian]

I agree with most of that, so why do so many people go to Greta when looking for answers?

Nobody here is going to Greta looking for the answers Drake, and I think you're mistaken when you suggest large segments of this forum, Australia or the world are looking to her for the answers. Greta Thunberg's activism began by her imploring her family to reduce their carbon footprint.

Greta's fame is purely derived from the fact she encapsulates an attitude that young people have globally, and she has changed the conversation about climate conversation forever. Greta has inspired millions of GenZ, iGen and Centennials to formally lend their voice to the global conversation about climate change. We all know that younger generations are measurably more concerned about the environment, in an existential way. But up until Greta there has been very limited civic engagement by these generations beyond social media fads like the #trashtag challenge.

Fair enough if you have no stomach for what she is propogating, or her tone, or that she's being 'handled' by adults around her. But your dissonance doesn't change the fact that Greta is only giving voice to a sentiment that exists globally, and she has tapped into the very real anger and frustration of young people across the world. You can shout at as many clouds as you want, but you won't be able to put that bunny back in the box. Dare I use the word 'juggernaut' in the St Kilda forum?

I also want to point out that rising sea levels are impacting island nations in the Pacific, Fiji included. Island communities are getting their feet wet because of rising sea levels. This isn't jargon or an analogy either, I mean that literally. The impact a little white 16 year old girl in Sweden has had on the climate conversation is being cheered by Pacific Islanders, because we have been trying to tell the world we feel the same way for decades now. The West, and particularly Australia's political credibility is in tatters amongst Pacific Island states due to it's inaction. In Fiji we speak of the climate as an actual threat and it's way more complex than a simplistic loss of land due to rising sea levels.

But let's be brutally honest here. Nobody here really cares about the Island States. We'll mourn them if/when they disappear. Heck, we might even help save a few of those poor souls. But it's still not affecting us, so lets not go overboard. Carry on. Business as usual. I'll be gone anyways so just don't wreck MY life.

NASA has an excellent resource for the evidence surrounding climate change. I recommend it to everybody.

Climate Change - NASA Science

NASA is a global leader in studying Earth’s changing climate.

climate.nasa.gov

To quote NASA "The current warming trend is of particular significance because most of it is extremely likely (greater than 95 percent probability) to be the result of human activity since the mid-20th century and proceeding at a rate that is unprecedented over decades to millennia."