Discussion Random Discussion

[George]

As someone else said, how can you be surprised he was investigated for foreign collusion when he literally asked Russia on international television to interfere in the election and had suspicious meetings with Russian officials both in Russia and in Trump tower? Let's remember that he was never cleared of Russian collusion, they simply said there wasn't enough evidence to find him guilty. It's still not a good look and it is infinitely more suspicious than "big pharma suppressing hydroxychloroquine" or 98% of the rest of Trump's deranged theories.

What is actually disingenuous is blaming one side for everything. This happens on both sides. If all you ever read is left leaning media then that's what you'll tend to believe, and if you only read right leaning media that's what you'll probably believe. There is no balanced discussion and especially not in this thread. Just a few railing against the other side.

 

[Crusty Undies]

Also let's not mince facts here. As bad as any misinformation from the corporate DNC has been, it all pales into comparison to Trump's complete and abject failure to take any meaningful action on covid letting hundreds of thousands of Americans die and convincing some of them that there was no risk at all even as they were in hospital. Again, it's very very disingenuous to pretend that it happens to the same degree on both sides. Say what you will about the media but everyone knows to take what the media says with a grain of salt and to find multiple sources but Trump says something and all of a sudden this necessity to validate information disappears because "well they do it to". It's a bad precedent to set imo.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

You'd hope so but who knows, He's stacked the pentagon with allies and the courts. You hope the dam wall holds but you have seen the result in other countries where it hasn't. There is a certain amount of the political system that runs on convention and good grace. Counties in the west rarely have anything like this hit them so don't legislate for it meaning it's done on gentlemanly conduct rather than law sometimes. Not knowing their system, a lot of cracks in the system are going to be tested.

If he can't uphold a legal challenge ,he has legally lost the elections. If he successfully challenges, i guess the election has to be re-done.
The Joint Chiefs and all they command will place legality above all else. Its not like they haven't needed to deal with wackjob Presidents before.

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

Also let's not mince facts here. As bad as any misinformation from the corporate DNC has been, it all pales into comparison to Trump's complete and abject failure to take any meaningful action on covid letting hundreds of thousands of Americans die and convincing some of them that there was no risk at all even as they were in hospital. Again, it's very very disingenuous to pretend that it happens to the same degree on both sides. Say what you will about the media but everyone knows to take what the media says with a grain of salt and to find multiple sources but Trump says something and all of a sudden this necessity to validate information disappears because "well they do it to". It's a bad precedent to set imo.

I reckon if Trump did a good job at Covid and did a good job with climate change he would have gone down as one of Americas best presidents.

He just had to listen to scientists for Covid, signed some bills for maks, other medical stuff and stimulus packages and play a **** load of golf while qualified people do the work.

 

[Crusty Undies]

What is actually disingenuous is blaming one side for everything. This happens on both sides. If all you ever read is left leaning media then that's what you'll tend to believe, and if you only read right leaning media that's what you'll probably believe. There is no balanced discussion and especially not in this thread. Just a few railing against the other side.

I'm not blaming one side for everything though you're missing my point. Of course it happens on both sides, that's politics unfortunately and it's especially in America. What I am saying is that this pretence that because misinformation is peddled on both sides that it must happen EQUALLY on both sides is blatantly wrong. Pro-DNC misinformation calls people fascists, Trump misinformation costs hundreds of thousands of lives among other things. It's not equal, from an outcomes perspective it's more costly from Trump than from anyone else, from a weight of numbers perspective we see it from Trump more than anyone else, from a severity perspective we see it worse from Trump than anyone else. Again, this isn't about Liberal or Conservative at this point, it's about what is factually true and what is not. And the fact that Trump is practically incapable of dealing with facts is all anyone should really need to know.

 

[Crusty Undies]

I reckon if Trump did a good job at Covid and did a good job with climate change he would have gone down as one of Americas best presidents.

He just had to listen to scientists for Covid, signed some bills for maks, other medical stuff and stimulus packages and play a fu** load of golf while qualified people do the work.

And why would that be? He's "created more jobs" sure, but at the cost of full time jobs and well paying jobs. He's "lowered taxes" but at the cost of public services. His trade tariffs have been a complete and abject failure running several American manufacturing companies into the ground as costs were passed on to American consumers. He has been categorically the most divisive president in living memory, possibly ever, leading to racial tensions unseen since segregation. There are many other failures I can list and all of them can be proven.

 

[George]

Also let's not mince facts here. As bad as any misinformation from the corporate DNC has been, it all pales into comparison to Trump's complete and abject failure to take any meaningful action on covid letting hundreds of thousands of Americans die and convincing some of them that there was no risk at all even as they were in hospital. Again, it's very very disingenuous to pretend that it happens to the same degree on both sides. Say what you will about the media but everyone knows to take what the media says with a grain of salt and to find multiple sources but Trump says something and all of a sudden this necessity to validate information disappears because "well they do it to". It's a bad precedent to set imo.

Biden in the presidential debates said his plan for COVID was exactly the same as Trump's just with "more testing". Yes I agree the border should've been closed sooner and in general they should've done a much better job but the alternative was Biden who didn't have any new ideas and then actually called Trump a racist for closing the border. So using that logic, would Biden have closed the border at all? We closed state borders, are our government racists? Whilst Nancy Pelosi was crying about COVID and then dancing in the streets and getting her hair done while businesses across her state had shut down.

Whether it's playing Despacito in front of Mexicans or telling black americans they aren't black enough if they don't vote a certain way. They do whatever they can for a vote and people get sucked in way too easily. We can complain about Trump's actions and the foundations of democracy - you'd think impeaching a president based on nothing is not a good precedent to set either.

 

[George]

I'm not blaming one side for everything though you're missing my point. Of course it happens on both sides, that's politics unfortunately and it's especially in America. What I am saying is that this pretence that because misinformation is peddled on both sides that it must happen EQUALLY on both sides is blatantly wrong. Pro-DNC misinformation calls people fascists, Trump misinformation costs hundreds of thousands of lives among other things. It's not equal, from an outcomes perspective it's more costly from Trump than from anyone else, from a weight of numbers perspective we see it from Trump more than anyone else, from a severity perspective we see it worse from Trump than anyone else. Again, this isn't about Liberal or Conservative at this point, it's about what is factually true and what is not. And the fact that Trump is practically incapable of dealing with facts is all anyone should really need to know.

Happening equally or not is subjective anyway. I believe the Democrats have done enough damage to warrant more criticism than they currently do.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

As far as Coup's go , this one took the cake.

2004 Equatorial Guinea coup attempt - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Simon Mann owner of Sandline, recognized that the crappy dictator in Equatorial Guinea was hanging on by a breath.

He figured that the army was its own entity and wouldn't give a shit, and that the only thing stopping a takeover was the dictator's personal guard.
Then hatched a plot to reinstate the deposed leader with a force of 70 mercenaries.
Now EG is not a big country, it probably had a population of a million at the time, but it had shit loads of oil.

It might have worked, but the South African government got wind of it, and tipped off Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe where they stopped to collect arms.
Busted.

Mark Thatcher helped finance the operation.
The television movie, ""The Coup " is well worth watching.

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

And why would that be? He's "created more jobs" sure, but at the cost of full time jobs and well paying jobs. He's "lowered taxes" but at the cost of public services. His trade tariffs have been a complete and abject failure running several American manufacturing companies into the ground as costs were passed on to American consumers. He has been categorically the most divisive president in living memory, possibly ever, leading to racial tensions unseen since segregation. There are many other failures I can list and all of them can be proven.

Trump was a **** up dont get me wrong and the only positive I can see that he did not **** up as bad as Dubya or pull a Reagan

Covid was such a big that if he did a good job he probably wins the election it was that big of an issus IMO

 

[Dard Ball Get]

Whether it's playing Despacito in front of Mexicans

If ya don't Despacito, y'aint Mexican. Fact.

 

[George]

If ya don't Despacito, y'aint Mexican. Fact.

He has some good moves for an old codger though I'll give him that

 

[StCicatriz]

far right lunatics

 

[Crusty Undies]

Biden in the presidential debates said his plan for COVID was exactly the same as Trump's just with "more testing". Yes I agree the border should've been closed sooner and in general they should've done a much better job but the alternative was Biden who didn't have any new ideas and then actually called Trump a racist for closing the border. So using that logic, would Biden have closed the border at all? We closed state borders, are our government racists? Whilst Nancy Pelosi was crying about COVID and then dancing in the streets and getting her hair done while businesses across her state had shut down.

Whether it's playing Despacito in front of Mexicans or telling black americans they aren't black enough if they don't vote a certain way. They do whatever they can for a vote and people get sucked in way too easily. We can complain about Trump's actions and the foundations of democracy - you'd think impeaching a president based on nothing is not a good precedent to set either.

I don't know where you heard that was Biden's plan but it is definitely not. Also don't get me wrong, I don't like Biden or Pelosi or any of the other mainstream DNC candidates, I wanted Bernie or Yang because they are the only 2 with good policy that don't take corporate money. The impeachment was an unmitigated disaster, it achieved nothing and lost them votes this election. At the end of the day I only dislike Biden less than I dislike Trump. I really, really wish the DNC were capable of listening to their voter base and put an actual candidate against Trump instead of a figurehead of the old guard who will see nothing changed. But at the end of the day no progress is better than regression.

Happening equally or not is subjective anyway. I believe the Democrats have done enough damage to warrant more criticism than they currently do.

Of course they deserve more criticism than they get but they're the shadow party. I disagree that it's subjective though, at least not from a numbers perspective.

 

[StCicatriz]

I don't know where you heard that was Biden's plan but it is definitely not. Also don't get me wrong, I don't like Biden or Pelosi or any of the other mainstream DNC candidates, I wanted Bernie or Yang because they are the only 2 with good policy that don't take corporate money. The impeachment was an unmitigated disaster, it achieved nothing and lost them votes this election. At the end of the day I only dislike Biden less than I dislike Trump. I really, really wish the DNC were capable of listening to their voter base and put an actual candidate against Trump instead of a figurehead of the old guard who will see nothing changed. But at the end of the day no progress is better than regression.


Of course they deserve more criticism than they get but they're the shadow party. I disagree that it's subjective though, at least not from a numbers perspective.

i think the big issue the US has is because those that actually vote are right of center and deeply conservative it's very hard to shift it further left

its like the whole defund the police argument. if they actually addressed issues like gun control, health care and living standards they would see less pressure on the police force there and things would improve.

but then you get idiots thinking its going to mean shutting down the police. then you get idiots thinking any kind of movement on health care means communism. any kind of movement of gun control means the end of civil liberties.

 

[George]

I don't know where you heard that was Biden's plan but it is definitely not. Also don't get me wrong, I don't like Biden or Pelosi or any of the other mainstream DNC candidates, I wanted Bernie or Yang because they are the only 2 with good policy that don't take corporate money. The impeachment was an unmitigated disaster, it achieved nothing and lost them votes this election. At the end of the day I only dislike Biden less than I dislike Trump. I really, really wish the DNC were capable of listening to their voter base and put an actual candidate against Trump instead of a figurehead of the old guard who will see nothing changed. But at the end of the day no progress is better than regression.


Of course they deserve more criticism than they get but they're the shadow party. I disagree that it's subjective though, at least not from a numbers perspective.

Can agree with your first point. Heard it from Biden himself. What do you mean by a numbers perspective? By the amount of press each have received? I'd say it's probably 80/20 bad press towards Trump but that happens when you have left media.

 

[flyingmagic]

They are going to come for your head mate...

I had a chuckle

 

[Crusty Undies]

Can agree with your first point. Heard it from Biden himself. What do you mean by a numbers perspective? By the amount of press each have received? I'd say it's probably 80/20 bad press towards Trump but that happens when you have left media.

From the number of claims made. It's pretty hard to deny that Trump makes more claims than anyone else in American politics.

 

[Crusty Undies]

i think the big issue the US has is because those that actually vote are right of center and deeply conservative it's very hard to shift it further left

its like the whole defund the police argument. if they actually addressed issues like gun control, health care and living standards they would see less pressure on the police force there and things would improve.

but then you get idiots thinking its going to mean shutting down the police. then you get idiots thinking any kind of movement on health care means communism. any kind of movement of gun control means the end of civil liberties.

Agreed, people complain about it here but compulsory voting is why we have a (marginally) more balanced political landscape.

 

[StCicatriz]

Agreed, people complain about it here but compulsory voting is why we have a (marginally) more balanced political landscape.

couldnt agree more

having lived there, so many people just don't vote, because they have to find time during the work day to do it or before/after work. then they feel completely powerless anyway, so give up.

we have a lot of faults here but we are light years ahead of them in terms of social issues.

for example, my partner was severely dehydrated and had to go to ED, the bill for a 24 hour stay and some IV for fluids. Over 10k.

my partner then had to take medicine for severe morning sickness, otherwise she ends up back in the ED with another 10k bill. cost of that. over 10k for the life of the pregnancy.

a colleague's partner had complications during their pregnancy, cost: near on a million.

that's not how a normal society should operate.

 

[George]

From the number of claims made. It's pretty hard to deny that Trump makes more claims than anyone else in American politics.

Oh I don't dispute that I just think the other side does it more than you do.

 

[George]

couldnt agree more

having lived there, so many people just don't vote, because they have to find time during the work day to do it or before/after work. then they feel completely powerless anyway, so give up.

we have a lot of faults here but we are light years ahead of them in terms of social issues.

for example, my partner was severely dehydrated and had to go to ED, the bill for a 24 hour stay and some IV for fluids. Over 10k.

my partner then had to take medicine for severe morning sickness, otherwise she ends up back in the ED with another 10k bill. cost of that. over 10k for the life of the pregnancy.

a colleague's partner had complications during their pregnancy, cost: near on a million.

that's not how a normal society should operate.

Do you reckon the mentality of most Americans had a part to play in the COVID situation?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

far right lunatics

Sure Succeed. What sort of superpower would Mississippi become? They going to start growing cotton again?
Oh i see they are a major supplier of Catfish.

 

[StCicatriz]

Do you reckon the mentality of most Americans had a part to play in the COVID situation?

definitely, which is why messaging from the top is EXTREMELY important. when you have Trump dismiss it so openly it's very dangerous.

they still have a strong link to the militia thinking. i worked with a lady who had conceal and carry. brought a gun to work. let everyone know "hey i have a gun" *wink wink dont push me *. on the weekends would take their automatic weapons and practice their drills and shit.

we had to let her go because she was useless at her job and we were in the middle of the GFC. we had been carrying her for a while, but she was cheap. on the way out she told me to watch myself and wait till i hear from her husband.

but going back to the covid situation its really just an accelerator, its exposing all the flaws in the states right now.

their health system is a massive concern. like re-read what i wrote. that's not a nice scenario. can you see how that's bad?

here's another thing to remember, we didn't hire anyone without a college degree, even for non-technical roles, like sales or account management. even the PA had a college degree. this was the same across all the companies we did business with.

i feel people don't have a very good understand on the states because they've never lived there. if they were born there, they would have had a totally different outcome to what we have had here.

 

[George]

definitely, which is why messaging from the top is EXTREMELY important. when you have Trump dismiss it so openly it's very dangerous.

they still have a strong link to the militia thinking. i worked with a lady who had conceal and carry. brought a gun to work. on the weekends would take their automatic weapons and practice their drills and sh*t.

we had to let her go because she was useless at her job and we were in the middle of the GFC. we had been carrying her for a while, but she was cheap. on the way out she told me to watch myself and wait till i hear from her husband.

but going back to the covid situation its really just an accelerator, its exposing all the flaws in the states right now.

their health system is a massive concern. like re-read what i wrote. that's not a nice scenario. can you see how that's bad?

Do you think they would've done their own thing anyway? They seem very anti-establishment. They are super defensive about their 2nd amendment for example. Part of me feels like they would've just done whatever they wanted regardless of messaging.