Discussion Random Discussion

[Mat Mann]

Three main reasons I decided to go vegetarian:
1, Animal welfare.
2, The environmental impact of meat farming and its contribution to climate change.
3, Health benefits in terms of lower cholesterol and fat, plus the link between meat and some cancers.

I don't want to be just an occasional meat eater, for the above reasons. Having taken the leap, I'd like to do it properly. So no more shrimp on the barbie for me.

you know that is a myth right......

 

[gringo2011]

Have to download it , but there's a good article in here on electric vehicles.
Essentially we need to sort out our Power Station issues before we rush out and buy Tesla's, because we are effectively running them on coal.
I wish they'd get a move on, because it doesn't take long to shut down a coal station, but it might take a decade to build a replacement.

GoAutoNews March 2024 | GoAuto

The motoring industry's leading newsletter, published weekly and distributed electronically around the world to car company executives, dealership personnel and executives in support industries.

www.goauto.com.au

-------------------------------
ELECTRIC vehicles that are
charged using power generated by
coal are not as green as cars running
on petrol or diesel, according to
ABMARC, a respected Australian
engineering research group.
Analysis showed EVs, particularly
on Australia’s eastern states, are
responsible for more carbon dioxide
emissions than petrol vehicles, and
that in Victoria “CO2 emissions from
electric vehicles are particularly
high, similar to the average diesel
vehicle CO2 emissions”.
The Melbourne engineering
consultancy’s principal engineer
Natalie Roberts told GoAutoNews
Premium that ABMARC prepared
the report in the lead-up to the
federal election in May and was a
briefing on the high emissions that
result from producing electricity to
power EVs.
The content of the report has just
come to light after it was leaked to
The Australian newspaper.
“Now that it’s in the public
arena, I can confirm that it includes
ABMARC’s findings that EVs used
on the east coast of Australia produce
more carbon dioxide emissions than
conventional petrol vehicles. This
is due to the fact that Australia
continues to rely heavily on coal for
its electricity,” Ms Roberts said.

My father in law is going to get one next and just had a house built, it's got the garage covered in solar panels just for the future car and a battery pack ready. If you can afford one you can afford to supply the solar to run it.

It's a bit like the Jevon's paradox where really with all new green technology you have to make a whole lot of new s**t that off sets the efficiencies gained. Owning and older car might take more fuel but be off-set. You have to transport ore, fabricate metal, paint, and everything else that might actually make your new green car more damaging than the guy down the road in his 20 year old Commodore that drinks fuel and smokes on take off.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

My father in law is going to get one next and just had a house built, it's got the garage covered in solar panels just for the future car and a battery pack ready. If you can afford one you can afford to supply the solar to run it.

It's a bit like the Jevon's paradox where really with all new green technology you have to make a whole lot of new s**t that off sets the efficiencies gained. Owning and older car might take more fuel but be off-set. You have to transport ore, fabricate metal, paint, and everything else that might actually make your new green car more damaging than the guy down the road in his 20 year old Commodore that drinks fuel and smokes on take off.

People forget about life cycle costs.
If you were still driving a T-Model ford you've used way less energy than someone who gets a new car every few years.
Planned obsolescence is a blight, and its totally off the Radar.
Washing machines in launderettes last forever and clean just as well as that new fangled thing covered in LED's that will need replacing every couple of years.
Hoover were pissed off that they didn't buy Dyson when they got the chance, to shut them down, they didn't want better cleaners , they were happy trundling out the same old crap and convincing people it was better. ( When i moved out of home i used my grandmothers old hoover upright, it worked ok, and when i replaced it , i was pissed, the new one wasn't any better ).
Apple have it down to a fine art, and your typical card carrying green thinks they are the phone of choice, because.... image and stuff.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

My father in law is going to get one next and just had a house built, it's got the garage covered in solar panels just for the future car and a battery pack ready. If you can afford one you can afford to supply the solar to run it.

It's a bit like the Jevon's paradox where really with all new green technology you have to make a whole lot of new s**t that off sets the efficiencies gained. Owning and older car might take more fuel but be off-set. You have to transport ore, fabricate metal, paint, and everything else that might actually make your new green car more damaging than the guy down the road in his 20 year old Commodore that drinks fuel and smokes on take off.

Good on your dad in law, but i think you'll find most people just buy the car.

They need to do something about our electricity grid though.

a) Politicians would love to build more coal, simply because its cheap and easy and works.
b) a lot of people don't want them to, so they put off any decisions on large base line electricity.
c) when they decide to build something , anything, it could take a decade to complete.
d) the operator of W Station could shut down with short notice, like Hazelwood did, and we will all be running to buy petrol generators if we want the lights on.

We seem to be just waiting for the s**t to hit the fan.

 

[VDS66]

An interesting aside...

Had lunch with an American friend. Huge intellectual.

Discussing mass shootings and gun problems back home.

Explained the misuse of the 2nd amendment to which I was ignorant.

Asked why no change in laws. Basically the NRA is one of the most powerful lobby groups in the USA.

Interesting point was that he named the coal industry as our equivalent in terms of power and influence over Goverment.

I immediately had flashbacks to scomo bringing a piece of coal into parliament...

 

[SaintsSeptember]

An interesting aside...

Had lunch with an American friend. Huge intellectual.

Discussing mass shootings and gun problems back home.

Explained the misuse of the 2nd amendment to which I was ignorant.

Asked why no change in laws. Basically the NRA is one of the most powerful lobby groups in the USA.

Interesting point was that he named the coal industry as our equivalent in terms of power and influence over Goverment.

I immediately had flashbacks to scomo bringing a piece of coal into parliament...

The gun lobby is pretty publicly known.

The "coal lobby" ?

Friends in high places: fossil fuel political donations - Market Forces

February 2019 Every year, Australian governments and their departments spend billions of dollars of your money to help more coal, gas and oil to be extracted and burned. Favourable decisions include: tax-based subsidies direct contributions concessional loans from public financial institutions...

www.marketforces.org.au

Its there, and its a thing.
But our government is a very different animal to that of the usa, ( which he would know if he's a huge intellectual ), no-where near as reliant on funding and open to corruption.

The NRA donates around 20 Million a year to political parties i think.
Our various big petro companies combine to around 1 million i think.

Pretty sure a government with an agenda would have no problem walking away from a million bucks.

 

[VDS66]

The gun lobby is pretty publicly known.

The "coal lobby" ?

Friends in high places: fossil fuel political donations - Market Forces

February 2019 Every year, Australian governments and their departments spend billions of dollars of your money to help more coal, gas and oil to be extracted and burned. Favourable decisions include: tax-based subsidies direct contributions concessional loans from public financial institutions...

www.marketforces.org.au

Its there, and its a thing.
But our government is a very different animal to that of the usa, ( which he would know if he's a huge intellectual ), no-where near as reliant on funding and open to corruption.

OK if you say so.

I'll let him know next time I see him. The guy has worked balls deep with governments in Australia, UAE, USA and China.

But obviously you know more because you have mastered the art of the internet.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

OK if you say so.

I'll let him know next time I see him. The guy has worked balls deep with governments in Australia, UAE, USA and China.

But obviously you know more because you have mastered the art of the internet.

Ok we have the secret underground coal lobby running our government.
You win the argument because you said your friend is really smart.
How can i argue with such things when i only have published facts to support me.

Coal lobby ads biggest third-party political expenditure in Australia

AEC disclosures for last year also confirm Malcolm Turnbull was nation’s biggest political donor, giving $1.75m to the Liberals

www.theguardian.com

Like i said, its real. But are they actually planning new coal stations?

Nothing like the gun lobby in the USA, and even without the gun lobby there, it would be an incredibly hard job to clean up all the guns. Try to do a buy back and you 'd be buying them back from the law abiding citizens , leaving huge arsenals in the hands of criminals. ( not sure the government could afford to buy them all back in the USA either ).

 

[VDS66]

Ok we have the secret underground coal lobby running our government.
You win the argument because you said your friend is really smart.
How can i argue with such things when i only have published facts to support me.

Coal lobby ads biggest third-party political expenditure in Australia

AEC disclosures for last year also confirm Malcolm Turnbull was nation’s biggest political donor, giving $1.75m to the Liberals

www.theguardian.com

Like i said, its real. But are they actually planning new coal stations?

Nothing like the gun lobby in the USA, and even without the gun lobby there, it would be an incredibly hard job to clean up all the guns. Try to do a buy back and you 'd be buying them back from the law abiding citizens , leaving huge arsenals in the hands of criminals. ( not sure the government could afford to buy them all back in the USA either ).

he said it was our equivalent in terms of influence. Not as big or as influential. Just put equivalent.

And if you think that the measure of influence comes down to donations alone then you ate very naive.

Perhaps take a closer look at relationships between Barnaby and Gina, and how many of our pollies go and work for resource companies after they leave parliament...

Then you have the minister who thanked the mining sector and said he was honoured to serve them.

FMD.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

he said it was our equivalent in terms of influence. Not as big or as influential. Just put equivalent.

And if you think that the measure of influence comes down to donations alone then you ate very naive.

Perhaps take a closer look at relationships between Barnaby and Gina, and how many of our pollies go and work for resource companies after they leave parliament...

Then you have the minister who thanked the mining sector and said he was honoured to serve them.

FMD.

Ok i'll accept that they are equivalent , but not "as" equivalent :/ ( or maybe he meant as bad as we have ).

 

[Saints43]

you know that is a myth right......

I thought it was true. Isn't it?

 

[Yawkey way]

Good on your dad in law, but i think you'll find most people just buy the car.

They need to do something about our electricity grid though.

a) Politicians would love to build more coal, simply because its cheap and easy and works.
b) a lot of people don't want them to, so they put off any decisions on large base line electricity.
c) when they decide to build something , anything, it could take a decade to complete.
d) the operator of W Station could shut down with short notice, like Hazelwood did, and we will all be running to buy petrol generators if we want the lights on.

We seem to be just waiting for the s**t to hit the fan.

Its not that easy to find details of what’s actually going offline and what’s actually being built or proposed.

 

[Yawkey way]

An interesting aside...

Had lunch with an American friend. Huge intellectual.

Discussing mass shootings and gun problems back home.

Explained the misuse of the 2nd amendment to which I was ignorant.

Asked why no change in laws. Basically the NRA is one of the most powerful lobby groups in the USA.

Interesting point was that he named the coal industry as our equivalent in terms of power and influence over Goverment.

I immediately had flashbacks to scomo bringing a piece of coal into parliament...

Very old civil rights organisation with something over 5 million members paying dues.

It’s hard to get accurate membership figures as gun owners when polled often identify as members when their not in fact paid up members. Exceptionally powerful lobby group as is the mining sector here, power generation and coal are incredibly sensitive issues for the government here and imo it’s a good comparison in terms of power and influence.

 

[VDS66]

Very old civil rights organisation with something over 5 million members paying dues.

It’s hard to get accurate membership figures as gun owners when polled often identify as members when their not in fact paid up members. Exceptionally powerful lobby group as is the mining sector here, power generation and coal are incredibly sensitive issues for the government here and imo it’s a good comparison in terms of power and influence.

I think Kevin Rudd would agree with you.

To simply say that it all comes down to donations is naive.

That's why i am an advocate for a Federal ICAC.

Weed them out regardless of political persuasion.

 

[Mat Mann]

I thought it was true. Isn't it?

there are many many articles and research papers on th subject, depends on whose publishing the article and what the agenda appears to be as the figures vary.

But agriculture is somewhere in the 11% pollution range and of that Beef is said to be around 40% of that.
transport and Industry by far dwarf that of the meat industry in terms of pollution.

Will going Vegan/Vegetarian have a noticeable influence on the worlds pollution levels, very minor at best.
I heard Lewis Hamilton mention this as his reason for going vegan a while ago so did a bit of research. If lower pollution levels were your goal, then re usable shopping bags and public transport would most likely have more of an impact then not eating meat/meat products.

 

[Mat Mann]

Ok we have the secret underground coal lobby running our government.
You win the argument because you said your friend is really smart.
How can i argue with such things when i only have published facts to support me.

Coal lobby ads biggest third-party political expenditure in Australia

AEC disclosures for last year also confirm Malcolm Turnbull was nation’s biggest political donor, giving $1.75m to the Liberals

www.theguardian.com

Like i said, its real. But are they actually planning new coal stations?

Nothing like the gun lobby in the USA, and even without the gun lobby there, it would be an incredibly hard job to clean up all the guns. Try to do a buy back and you 'd be buying them back from the law abiding citizens , leaving huge arsenals in the hands of criminals. ( not sure the government could afford to buy them all back in the USA either ).

that's the thing though, the 2017 stats say 40000 US citizens were killed by guns, and of that 40k, 20k were suicides, how many time is there a report of sibling/family/friends shooting each other after finding loaded weapon and playing with it.

the most astounding thing is they refuse to entertain any form of gun reform, any form of safety measures to prevent the accidental shootings and the means to keep weapons out of minors hands.

The simple fact the one can own a firearm and it not being registered nor means of keeping the weapon in a safe place is mind boggling.
the fact that many outlets are now doing these things on a voluntary basis is condemning of the American way.

 

[gringo2011]

Good on your dad in law, but i think you'll find most people just buy the car.

They need to do something about our electricity grid though.

a) Politicians would love to build more coal, simply because its cheap and easy and works.
b) a lot of people don't want them to, so they put off any decisions on large base line electricity.
c) when they decide to build something , anything, it could take a decade to complete.
d) the operator of W Station could shut down with short notice, like Hazelwood did, and we will all be running to buy petrol generators if we want the lights on.

We seem to be just waiting for the s**t to hit the fan.

Yep, it's a lack of policy direct that's running us towards a cliff with no way to brake. It's the worst of both worlds. It's cheaper to build wind and solar but coal is the current set up so easier to manage contracts and government legislation while getting decent kick backs as well. What they also don't mention though is that we have burnet a bulk of black coal that burns pretty clean and most of Gippsland is now burning brown coal which is less pure so more carbon. I think Queensland probably still has decent deposits of black but then transporting it makes it expensive as well as being controlled by overseas interests now who can set their own price lie our gas.

 

[Stewart66]

An interesting aside...

Had lunch with an American friend. Huge intellectual.

Discussing mass shootings and gun problems back home.

Explained the misuse of the 2nd amendment to which I was ignorant.

Asked why no change in laws. Basically the NRA is one of the most powerful lobby groups in the USA.

Interesting point was that he named the coal industry as our equivalent in terms of power and influence over Goverment.

I immediately had flashbacks to scomo bringing a piece of coal into parliament...

Watch doco .....The Family......... on Netflix if you want the most powerful lobby group .


Been operating since 1935

 

[gringo2011]

Watch doco .....The Family......... on Netflix if you want the most powerful lobby group .


Been operating since 1935

Yeah, churches hold enormous power. Even the private school lobby here can influence elections. You don't need huge numbers to have undue influence in politics. Developers, special interest groups in conservation, arms, petroleum etc all wield a lot of influence.

 

[Stewart66]

Yeah, churches hold enormous power. Even the private school lobby here can influence elections. You don't need huge numbers to have undue influence in politics. Developers, special interest groups in conservation, arms, petroleum etc all wield a lot of influence.

Nah the “Family” are involved in them all ...influence everything.

 

[VDS66]

Watch doco .....The Family......... on Netflix if you want the most powerful lobby group .


Been operating since 1935

Yeah great doco. That also came up in our discussion.

The libs have sought to increase memberships by recruiting religious conservatives with mixed results.

The Australian Christian lobby holds Roo much sway in social policy IMO.

Just last week, the best thing Scomo could muster up for drought relief was to pray for rain.

Fmd.

 

[VDS66]

On a lighter note, anyone else watching Knightfall?

What a great series.

 

[Stewart66]

I

Yeah great doco. That also came up in our discussion.

The libs have sought to increase memberships by recruiting religious conservatives with mixed results.

The Australian Christian lobby holds Roo much sway in social policy IMO.

Just last week, the best thing Scomo could muster up for drought relief was to pray for rain.

Fmd.

The Great Hack ....on Netflix ...another one good one with popcorn & beer

Corruption on steroids

 

[VDS66]

I



The Great Hack ....on Netflix ...another one good one with popcorn & beer

Corruption on steroids

Stuff like that just gets me angry these days.

I don't even watch TV news.

Got it earmarked to download and watch it during school hols with my son.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Yep, it's a lack of policy direct that's running us towards a cliff with no way to brake. It's the worst of both worlds. It's cheaper to build wind and solar but coal is the current set up so easier to manage contracts and government legislation while getting decent kick backs as well. What they also don't mention though is that we have burnet a bulk of black coal that burns pretty clean and most of Gippsland is now burning brown coal which is less pure so more carbon. I think Queensland probably still has decent deposits of black but then transporting it makes it expensive as well as being controlled by overseas interests now who can set their own price lie our gas.

The Lignite ( brown coal ) in Gippsland holds a lot of water, and due to its nature, dodgy hydrocarbons, that need to be evaporated off during a drying process prior to burning. The whole efficiency factor was based around being able to have the Power stations close to the coal mine, within easily transmissible distance to Melbourne.
You only need to see some of the big electric dredgers feeding Loy Yang ,directly via conveyor belts to imagine the logistics of trucking in Black Coal from NSW or Queensland. Its also problematic to transmit electricity from that distance.

Another thing which completely goes under the radar is International Shipping.

Environmental effects of shipping - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It would seem likely that Australia, with manufacturing shutting down, and our constant flow of iron ore to China, are amongst the major contributors to this source of CO2 emission.
I urge all devout Vegans to also forgo imported goods.