Discussion Random Discussion

[Dopey BJ]

But who says we wanted all that crap?

Our people were very happy to be left alone no matter how worse of we were, gotta remember there was no sickness, no cancer when it was just us, everything was natural.

I always hear about this "closing of the gap" crap, what is being done about it by our high & mighty government? Nothing..

So I would say we would have been better of if they stayed in England.

Agree to disagree, that's enough on the subject IMO.

I'm estimated to live until I'm 65 because I'm Aboriginal, do you know how much that ******* sucks?

I suppose a bright side might be you wouldn't of had the Saints

 

[35Saints35]

But who says we wanted all that crap?

Our people were very happy to be left alone no matter how worse of we were, gotta remember there was no sickness, no cancer when it was just us, everything was natural.

I always hear about this "closing of the gap" crap, what is being done about it by our high & mighty government? Nothing..

So I would say we would have been better of if they stayed in England.

Agree to disagree, that's enough on the subject IMO.

I'm estimated to live until I'm 65 because I'm Aboriginal, do you know how much that ******* sucks?

Fair point . I do agree that had the poms not come the aboriginal way would be better and freer than today by far . But had the poms not come someone else probably would have .

 

[Flandersss]

I suppose a bright side might be you wouldn't of had the Saints

very, very true Dopey!

I think what we seek is acknowledgment that we didn't want to give up this land, that it was taken, that's what I believe "Invasion Day" is all about

 

[35Saints35]

Well I suggest you go ask the government for a nice big block of land somewhere and say that your great great uncle used to eat turtles there and in sure they'll give it to you .

 

[Kildonan]

Well I suggest you go ask the government for a nice big block of land somewhere and say that your great great uncle used to eat turtles there and in sure they'll give it to you .

Is that really necessary 35saints? How does that advance the discussion? It seems confrontational to me

 

[Flandersss]

There always has been cancer
I agree with your point of view, just want to point out that you that while a lot of diseases were brought in by Europeans, in general cancers (except cancer of cervix due to HPV) are just unavoidable occurrences within a population.

Good to know Kildonan

I was just stating that things were more "natural" when it was just us..

 

[Flandersss]

Well I suggest you go ask the government for a nice big block of land somewhere and say that your great great uncle used to eat turtles there and in sure they'll give it to you .

not as simple as that mate, unfortunately.

 

[Joffaboy]

I think we can still celebrate Australia Day but why do it when it offends the indegenious population.

Would love to have an Australia where all of us are included.

Nobody is arguing that some people are better or worse. We are all different and we can all celebrate the country we share.

Just some compassion for our first people.

 

[Flandersss]

I think we can still celebrate Australia Day but why do it when it offends the indegenious population.

Would love to have an Australia where all of us are included.

Nobody is arguing that some people are better or worse. We are all different and we can all celebrate the country we share.

Just some compassion for our first people.

agree 100% Joffa

I want to celebrate how good Australia is with my fellow aussie's not "us against them" crap

 

[SaintsSeptember]

What do I expect?
I expect people not be ignorant ******s and say things like 'go back to the bush' & 'it could've been worse'. I honestly cannot fathom that people actually have this attitude towards the situation. It's ******* embarrassing.

I'm not one to own an Australian Flag and have a big party every Australia day, but I think it's embarrassing that we as a nation choose to shit on anything that we think is cause for celebration and to cringe at our culture.

EVERY culture has aspects in their history that can be or should be considered embarrassing ( Including that of indigenous Australians ). Its ridiculous to suggest that there should not be a national celebration without dragging out the crap.

 

[Rors]

This is one of the most powerful speeches i've ever seen. We should all watch it

 

[35Saints35]

Ok . I bow out ..

 

[Joffaboy]

I'm not one to own an Australian Flag and have a big party every Australia day, but I think it's embarrassing that we as a nation choose to shit on anything that we think is cause for celebration and to cringe at our culture.

EVERY culture has aspects in their history that can be or should be considered embarrassing ( Including that of indigenous Australians ). Its ridiculous to suggest that there should not be a national celebration without dragging out the crap.

Why? And why is it crap?

Where our first people not dispossed? We're they not shot, we're their wells not posioned? We're their children not stolen?

It all stemmed from January 26th 1788. This when an imperial European power invaded a land that they then claim through superior technology, by way of military firepower.

Why should this not be spoken of? Because it makes some feel uncomfortable?

Well I feel uncomfortable too SincMagic probably feels uncomfortable too. But it has to be recognised.

20 years ago Nicky Winmar was just a whinging abo according to some. Nowdays his actions are rightly lauded.

We acknowledge and recognise and include and we as a nation grows.

We become even better than we are now

 

[Joffaboy]

This is one of the most powerful speeches i've ever seen. We should all watch it

Too bad his partner is such a pill.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Why? And why is it crap?

Where our first people not dispossed? We're they not shot, we're their wells not posioned? We're their children not stolen?

It all stemmed from January 26th 1788. This when an imperial European power invaded a land that they then claim through superior technology, by way of military firepower.

Why should this not be spoken of? Because it makes some feel uncomfortable?

Well I feel uncomfortable too SincMagic probably feels uncomfortable too. But it has to be recognised.

20 years ago Nicky Winmar was just a whinging abo according to some. Nowdays his actions are rightly lauded.



We become even better than we are now

Because its a stupid time to talk about it.
Do you want to change it to national guilt day?
Do you think the Germans discuss Nazi atrocities during Oktoberfest?

National Culture cringe day. Great idea, we will all celebrate how guilty we feel because of something some of our forefathers might have done if they were here at the time. ( mine came out for the gold rush, i guess i should feel guilty about poisoning the environment ).
No other country on the planet is as obsessed with their own guilt as we are.

Lets become a race of miserable guilt ridden pricks.

The above speech was made last October. It was a good speech and credit to him.
Why mention it now?
Ohhhhhh someone isn't wallowing in their guilt on Australia Day.

 

[joop]

I'm not one to own an Australian Flag and have a big party every Australia day, but I think it's embarrassing that we as a nation choose to shit on anything that we think is cause for celebration and to cringe at our culture.

EVERY culture has aspects in their history that can be or should be considered embarrassing ( Including that of indigenous Australians ). Its ridiculous to suggest that there should not be a national celebration without dragging out the crap.

Why though?
This is the mentality of 'yeh it happened but let's not think about'. After all we didn't do anything wrong did we....???

 

[gringo2011]

When they say invasion , it's not like they took over anything that was of note . Was there buildings, industry, trade or commerce . No there was nothing and over time a nation was created . They were here first but walking around getting nothing done is not progress.
Thanks for coming England I like what you've done with the place

It probably doesn't matter because it sounds like you have a pretty solid opinion so I doubt it will change but there is a lot of misinformation deliberately spread to make us feel like we just walked into an unoccupied country and set up camp but the original Australians had stone houses and even had houses along the beach in Melbourne right down to St Kilda. Most of the early paintings of St kilda to Port Melbourne have Aboriginal camps in them.

It probably isn't the right thing to celebrate on a day that marked the start of a wipe out of their culture. It would be cool to have the whole country unified on one day. I know they should just chuck on some boardies and thongs, wrap them selves in an chinese made Aussie flag and get smashed on the beach just like the great pioneers of white Australia did but while they feel pissed off they can't enjoy it.

 

[RoundCubic]

There always has been cancer
I agree with your point of view, just want to point out that you that while a lot of diseases were brought in by Europeans, in general cancers (except cancer of cervix due to HPV) are just unavoidable occurrences within a population.

Though the hole in the ozone layer, introduction of tabacco, alcohol and western diets all increased risk of cancer. Also use of asbestos in remote area buildings, radiation from the british nuclear testing and probably a dozen other things like toxic dust from mining operations which increase risks of cancer and also the generations of rape which passed on genetic weaknesses that europeans carry.
Personally i would give Gina Rineharts australian holdings to local aboriginal groups and watch them sort out their own problems 17 billion and i think they would be fine but we could always include BHP Biliton if need be

 

[gringo2011]

Because its a stupid time to talk about it.
Do you want to change it to national guilt day?
Do you think the Germans discuss Nazi atrocities during Oktoberfest?

National Culture cringe day. Great idea, we will all celebrate how guilty we feel because of something some of our forefathers might have done if they were here at the time. ( mine came out for the gold rush, i guess i should feel guilty about poisoning the environment ).
No other country on the planet is as obsessed with their own guilt as we are.

Lets become a race of miserable guilt ridden pricks.

The above speech was made last October. It was a good speech and credit to him.
Why mention it now?
Ohhhhhh someone isn't wallowing in their guilt on Australia Day.

Except Octoberfest is a beer festival. If they had a "cleansing day" or something that celebrated the start of the first prison camp the world would look down on them.

Why does it have to be a guilt day? Why not a unity day where the whole lot can celebrate. Make it the day of federation or something. **** off Queen Liz and put it on the day we got rid of the Limeys.

If the Chinese invaded tomorrow and every year you were expected to wave flags to your benevolent overlords hopefully you would be pissed off too.

 

[Joffaboy]

Because its a stupid time to talk about it. .

It is an appropriate day

Do you want to change it to national guilt day?.

No. I don't think I ever canvassed that

Do you think the Germans discuss Nazi atrocities during Oktoberfest?

I don't know. However as I was in Berlin on the 70th anniversary of VE Day, I do know that the Zgermans embrace their past, they own it, they embrace it, and they don't shy away from it

National Culture cringe day..

I don't understand what you are driving at. You sound very defensive about this.

Great idea, we will all celebrate how guilty we feel because of something some of our forefathers might have done if they were here at the time. ( mine came out for the gold rush, i guess i should feel guilty about poisoning the environment ). ..

Funny how I don't feel guilt. Like the current day Germans, I had no part in the dispossession and invasion of aboriginal lands, but like the grown up adult Germans, I acknowledge our history, and don't try to sweep it under the carpet because it is "uncomfortable"

No other country on the planet is as obsessed with their own guilt as we are..

I don't know how you quantify that statement. I have recently been in a country as I just stated that has a national guilt, but embraces it like an adult nation.

Lets become a race of miserable guilt ridden pricks.

We are a number of races and I don't know about you but I enjoyed yesterday. I saw a mate play in his band (who are a Melbourne institution) and they acknowledged the aboriginals and Invasion Day. Didn't stop us from still celebrating the good in Australia as well. It is not just one extreme or another.

The above speech was made last October. It was a good speech and credit to him.
Why mention it now?
Ohhhhhh someone isn't wallowing in their guilt on Australia Day.

Sounds like you may have a fair degree of guilt. You are the only one to have mentioned guilt. I an certainly not guilty or feel guilt. I do feel for my fellow Australians, and the hurt that the 26th of January causes them. I have compassion for them.

If you feel guilt or want to rail against compassion feel, free, but don't try and rope the rest of us into your heartless misery.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Why though?
This is the mentality of 'yeh it happened but let's not think about'. After all we didn't do anything wrong did we....???

No its not , its the mentality of "don't be happy about anything... you should be miserable and somber about everything.

People come to Australia from other countries still.
They come from Europe , they come from Afghanistan, they come from India, and Africa.
Lots of them like it here and like the way it is.

But god help you if you are born here and try to celebrate the fact that you like the way it is. Because someone is going to tell you that you why you shouldn't. Why you are offensive no matter what you do.

 

[RoundCubic]

Except Octoberfest is a beer festival. If they had a "cleansing day" or something that celebrated the start of the first prison camp the world would look down on them.

Why does it have to be a guilt day? Why not a unity day where the whole lot can celebrate. Make it the day of federation or something. **** off Queen Liz and put it on the day we got rid of the Limeys.

If the Chinese invaded tomorrow and every year you were expected to wave flags to your benevolent overlords hopefully you would be pissed off too.

We need a republic to solve this federation day would jan 1st because the different states voted at different times so thats no good.
The rum rebellion was a result of people getting drunk celebrating Australia day.
The Eureka stockade is a great story but a bit of a downer and is tainted like the southern cross flag by its association with the push to stop the flow of Chinese migrants to victoria.
A republic day is the only real solution especially as by then we should have a formal recognition of the role of aboriginal people as the first australians and their suffering in the constitution

 

[Joffaboy]

If the Chinese invaded tomorrow and every year you were expected to wave flags to your benevolent overlords hopefully you would be pissed off too.

The Japanese don't acknowledge their past and don't accept responsibility for their atrocities during WWII.

I suppose we should tell the survivors of the Burma Rail and Changi Prison to stop being sooks and don't worry that the Japanese tortured and murdered their mates.

Don't want the Japanese feeling guilty do we?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

It is an appropriate day

I disagree.

No. I don't think I ever canvassed that



I don't know. However as I was in Berlin on the 70th anniversary of VE Day, I do know that the Zgermans embrace their past, they own it, they embrace it, and they don't shy away from it

Yes I know, i know plenty of Germans. But VE Day is specifically a war memorial day, specifically to do with the downfall of Hitler and the Nazi's. Kind of my point when i mentioned it in association with Octoberfest.

I don't understand what you are driving at. You sound very defensive about this.
Not at all. Culture cringe is an underlying denial that anything Australian is no good. For example your Holden cannot possibly be as good as a Hyundai, or that Bitburger is far better than VB. ( both cheap mass produced beers ). I don't believe i suffer from it.


Funny how I don't feel guilt. Like the current day Germans, I had no part in the dispossession and invasion of aboriginal lands, but like the grown up adult Germans, I acknowledge our history, and don't try to sweep it under the carpet because it is "uncomfortable"
It seems it needs to become the main topic of discussion each Australia Day. It is certainly not the only history Australia has.
Invasion Day? Who was invaded?
Which trimbes were invaded on invasion day?
are you saying they all were? They were all some big confederation of different people who were all simultaneously impacted on that particular day. Sorry that is not History as i view it. That is people now taking it as a token day of symbolism, which just happens to clash with Australia day.


I don't know how you quantify that statement. I have recently been in a country as I just stated that has a national guilt, but embraces it like an adult nation.
As i discussed above i think you are confused here.
Perhaps an official "Invasion Day" should be held.

We are a number of races and I don't know about you but I enjoyed yesterday. I saw a mate play in his band (who are a Melbourne institution) and they acknowledged the aboriginals and Invasion Day. Didn't stop us from still celebrating the good in Australia as well. It is not just one extreme or another.



Sounds like you may have a fair degree of guilt. You are the only one to have mentioned guilt. I an certainly not guilty or feel guilt. I do feel for my fellow Australians, and the hurt that the 26th of January causes them. I have compassion for them.

If you feel guilt or want to rail against compassion feel, free, but don't try and rope the rest of us into your heartless misery.

What is the aim of the renaming of Australia Day, as invasion Day if not to instill guilt.

It is ludicrous to suggest that all Indigenous people were invaded on a particular day.

 

[Persevering Saint]

What about taking up Wattle Day again as an alternative (September 1):

http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliam...brary/Publications_Archive/CIB/cib9596/96cib1

http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2013/08/26/3834077.htm