Discussion Random Discussion

[Rors]

In the 1997 grand final, there's an instance in the 2nd or 3rd quarter where the ball goes out of bounds & the camera cuts to a crowd shot & zooms in on some young yahoo with his hair sprayed RW&B sitting on the fence saying 'Go Saints'....

That's me!

 

[StFly]

The 2010 hurts the most for me. I went to both GF1 and 2, sat in the Saints cheer squad for GF1 and hugged and celebrated with people I didn't even know when BJ took that mark/kicked the goal.

GF2 I was up on the 3rd level just above the Saints end and just coming into the G on that day I felt it would be a miracle if we were to get up. Just the way the day had panned out, sitting in the back of the G, having known that GF1 was our best chance etc.

I remember after the siren went in GF1 the fans didn't know what was going on. I initially thought there would be extra time to determine the winner and if that rule had been in place I think we would've run over the top of them, but when the PA came over the ground and the players headed into the rooms I felt sick in the guts knowing what we'd need to muster the following week.

All in all though at least we got to experience what GF day was like. Imagine the Doggies supporters...

'09 was best chance. We were the best team in the comp, there was no comparable team in that season... except the cats. We bested them through individual moments by people who wanted to best them and going into that final against them, we had it, it was ours, we had them and nothing could stop us.

Then a ball right angles off a post and gets called a goal.
Then a few blokes have fresh air swings 45-50m from goal.
Then the ball bounces a different way.
It was a slow car crash, you had no idea you were on that collision but there were moments where the footy gods conspired against us, we were the better team because despite this, we were still in the lead or never more than a goal behind, but to me, that was football telling us that no, we can't have it though we tried and got so close. To add insult, the AFL, custodians of the game, then immediately outlawed the process to get Chappy up for the game which is a bit of a screw you to us.

2010 we were not the best team in the comp, us, the Dogs, the Pies and the Cats were there and thereabouts, the Pies were expected to choke because it's what they did, the Dogs were expected to fail because they haven't broken past a prelim, as soon as it was us against the Pies... I was worried. We should have been put away, it was something like 15 shots to 6 at half time and we were lucky it was like 7.8 to 4.2 or 5.1 and we took our chances, we would then come home and maintain that ratio whilst the Pies would continually fluff chances and whilst we did our best to pinch it and would have probably overran them in extra time to win it, the Pies did their best to lose it and throw it away.

The replay, the replay I gave us 5% because this was the Pies, they would find some way to come back and be 100% whilst we lost Gardy in that match, we were done after the first 10 mins. And to be insulting, that was the one that if it ended in a draw, it was going to be extra time.

It is bloody hard to win a flag, but harder still when shit just doesn't align with you when you try.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

'09 was best chance. We were the best team in the comp, there was no comparable team in that season... except the cats. We bested them through individual moments by people who wanted to best them and going into that final against them, we had it, it was ours, we had them and nothing could stop us.

Then a ball right angles off a post and gets called a goal.
Then a few blokes have fresh air swings 45-50m from goal.
Then the ball bounces a different way.
It was a slow car crash, you had no idea you were on that collision but there were moments where the footy gods conspired against us, we were the better team because despite this, we were still in the lead or never more than a goal behind, but to me, that was football telling us that no, we can't have it though we tried and got so close. To add insult, the AFL, custodians of the game, then immediately outlawed the process to get Chappy up for the game which is a bit of a screw you to us.

2010 we were not the best team in the comp, us, the Dogs, the Pies and the Cats were there and thereabouts, the Pies were expected to choke because it's what they did, the Dogs were expected to fail because they haven't broken past a prelim, as soon as it was us against the Pies... I was worried. We should have been put away, it was something like 15 shots to 6 at half time and we were lucky it was like 7.8 to 4.2 or 5.1 and we took our chances, we would then come home and maintain that ratio whilst the Pies would continually fluff chances and whilst we did our best to pinch it and would have probably overran them in extra time to win it, the Pies did their best to lose it and throw it away.

The replay, the replay I gave us 5% because this was the Pies, they would find some way to come back and be 100% whilst we lost Gardy in that match, we were done after the first 10 mins. And to be insulting, that was the one that if it ended in a draw, it was going to be extra time.

It is bloody hard to win a flag, but harder still when shit just doesn't align with you when you try.

22-11-63 You shouldn't be here.
Let's change the future instead.

 

[George]

'09 was best chance. We were the best team in the comp, there was no comparable team in that season... except the cats. We bested them through individual moments by people who wanted to best them and going into that final against them, we had it, it was ours, we had them and nothing could stop us.

Then a ball right angles off a post and gets called a goal.
Then a few blokes have fresh air swings 45-50m from goal.
Then the ball bounces a different way.
It was a slow car crash, you had no idea you were on that collision but there were moments where the footy gods conspired against us, we were the better team because despite this, we were still in the lead or never more than a goal behind, but to me, that was football telling us that no, we can't have it though we tried and got so close. To add insult, the AFL, custodians of the game, then immediately outlawed the process to get Chappy up for the game which is a bit of a screw you to us.

2010 we were not the best team in the comp, us, the Dogs, the Pies and the Cats were there and thereabouts, the Pies were expected to choke because it's what they did, the Dogs were expected to fail because they haven't broken past a prelim, as soon as it was us against the Pies... I was worried. We should have been put away, it was something like 15 shots to 6 at half time and we were lucky it was like 7.8 to 4.2 or 5.1 and we took our chances, we would then come home and maintain that ratio whilst the Pies would continually fluff chances and whilst we did our best to pinch it and would have probably overran them in extra time to win it, the Pies did their best to lose it and throw it away.

The replay, the replay I gave us 5% because this was the Pies, they would find some way to come back and be 100% whilst we lost Gardy in that match, we were done after the first 10 mins. And to be insulting, that was the one that if it ended in a draw, it was going to be extra time.

It is bloody hard to win a flag, but harder still when shit just doesn't align with you when you try.

We were down by 24 points at halftime against the Pies in 2010 GF1 and were about to complete the 2nd biggest half time comeback in GF history so it was going to be a miracle for us to get over the line in either GF imo. I thought Collingwood were the best side all year and had too much firepower for a side like ours who was ultra defensive.

Ah well...they were good times, I'm glad I got to experience St.Kilda in a grand final more than once in my life, win or lose...and just feel for the supporters whos teams haven't yet made it/haven't made it for a very long time.

 

[StFly]

22-11-63 You shouldn't be here.
Let's change the future instead.

I wasn't here, we had to wait 22 years for my lovely self to grace this planet.

That and my sisters sold our VCR player, so I am still very upset them and my parents for also offloading our vinyl & record player.

 

[gringo2011]

'09 was best chance. We were the best team in the comp, there was no comparable team in that season... except the cats. We bested them through individual moments by people who wanted to best them and going into that final against them, we had it, it was ours, we had them and nothing could stop us.

Then a ball right angles off a post and gets called a goal.
Then a few blokes have fresh air swings 45-50m from goal.
Then the ball bounces a different way.
It was a slow car crash, you had no idea you were on that collision but there were moments where the footy gods conspired against us, we were the better team because despite this, we were still in the lead or never more than a goal behind, but to me, that was football telling us that no, we can't have it though we tried and got so close. To add insult, the AFL, custodians of the game, then immediately outlawed the process to get Chappy up for the game which is a bit of a screw you to us.

2010 we were not the best team in the comp, us, the Dogs, the Pies and the Cats were there and thereabouts, the Pies were expected to choke because it's what they did, the Dogs were expected to fail because they haven't broken past a prelim, as soon as it was us against the Pies... I was worried. We should have been put away, it was something like 15 shots to 6 at half time and we were lucky it was like 7.8 to 4.2 or 5.1 and we took our chances, we would then come home and maintain that ratio whilst the Pies would continually fluff chances and whilst we did our best to pinch it and would have probably overran them in extra time to win it, the Pies did their best to lose it and throw it away.

The replay, the replay I gave us 5% because this was the Pies, they would find some way to come back and be 100% whilst we lost Gardy in that match, we were done after the first 10 mins. And to be insulting, that was the one that if it ended in a draw, it was going to be extra time.

It is bloody hard to win a flag, but harder still when shit just doesn't align with you when you try.

Gram was screwed after the drawn game too. He was hardly able to walk. He must have had so much pain killer just to get back out on the field he wouldn't have felt his legs. I reckon even getting there in 2010 was a magnificent effort. After Rooey ripped his hammy I had the year as a write off. That we got that close was testament to Ross Lyons coaching and our teams guts. When Goddard marked that ball I had a minute where I believed I was going to see us win one. I went numb and nearly blacked out I was so stressed by it.

2009 non free to Schnieder was the moment it went down hill. had his head ripped off then the ball went back the other way and Geelong goaled from memory.

 

[dct66]

BJ's grab should have been Barry Breen's point, Leo Barry's mark or Matthew Scarlet's toe-poke ... the single play that defined a premiership ... alas it was not to be.

 

[Rors]

BJ's grab should have been Barry Breen's point, Leo Barry's mark or Matthew Scarlet's toe-poke ... the single play that defined a premiership ... alas it was not to be.

Still shits me to no end that Leon Davis, who had done sweet **** all all ****ing day, managed to crumb & turn on a dime just inside 50 & slot that goal in the 9th minute of the last quarter

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Does anyone else listen to those Arnol Schwarzenegger sound board prank calls on YouTube? I find them to be absolutely hilarious.

 

[bird_man]

Hey guys, I just went to book general admission or level 3 tickets with my membership for round 2 (bulldogs) and it says there is none available. Could these tickets be sold out already?

I also wanted to get a couple of tickets for my parents but there are only a couple of small sections available?

 

[Luke_sainters]

I have been talking to a lot of mates about AFL equalisation and I think it needs more measures to make the comp more even and competitive.
STK, Melbourne, Dogs for a period Lions etc referring to the teams down the bottom between 2011-2014 was a tough time and reason for that is the two expansion teams received the best players. Clearly for Saints this period was the wrong time to be down the bottom being severely disadvantaged and clearly would've delayed the rebuild further.

Nevertheless, my proposal.

Number 1. Like NFL, Top 4 teams cannot gain a FA unless they lose one, or 3 players retire

Number 2 - The draft this might be a bit unpopular but the main idea is getting the comp even and giving everyone a chance and to vary the top 8.
Reverse order draft but one small change.
18th Picks 1+6
17th Picks 2+7
16th Picks 3+8
15th Picks 4+9
14th Picks 5+10
13th 11
14th 12 etc.

Say if Essendon finish bottom they have pick 1+6 right. And if Hooker leaves on a lucrative offer, they would receive End of First round compensation.
Now say if 13th lost a FA on a big offer they would receive a pick directly after so 13th would effectively have pick 11+12.

Yes, this could encourage tanking for sure but the main point is to make the weaker sides competitive faster.

I'm still contemplating a salary cap solution...

Let the debate begin

 

[Defacto]

I have been talking to a lot of mates about AFL equalisation and I think it needs more measures to make the comp more even and competitive.
STK, Melbourne, Dogs for a period Lions etc referring to the teams down the bottom between 2011-2014 was a tough time and reason for that is the two expansion teams received the best players. Clearly for Saints this period was the wrong time to be down the bottom being severely disadvantaged and clearly would've delayed the rebuild further.

Nevertheless, my proposal.

Number 1. Like NFL, Top 4 teams cannot gain a FA unless they lose one, or 3 players retire

Number 2 - The draft this might be a bit unpopular but the main idea is getting the comp even and giving everyone a chance and to vary the top 8.
Reverse order draft but one small change.
18th Picks 1+6
17th Picks 2+7
16th Picks 3+8
15th Picks 4+9
14th Picks 5+10
13th 11
14th 12 etc.

Say if Essendon finish bottom they have pick 1+6 right. And if Hooker leaves on a lucrative offer, they would receive End of First round compensation.
Now say if 13th lost a FA on a big offer they would receive a pick directly after so 13th would effectively have pick 11+12.

Yes, this could encourage tanking for sure but the main point is to make the weaker sides competitive faster.

I'm still contemplating a salary cap solution...

Let the debate begin

I like it

 

[plugger66]

I have been talking to a lot of mates about AFL equalisation and I think it needs more measures to make the comp more even and competitive.
STK, Melbourne, Dogs for a period Lions etc referring to the teams down the bottom between 2011-2014 was a tough time and reason for that is the two expansion teams received the best players. Clearly for Saints this period was the wrong time to be down the bottom being severely disadvantaged and clearly would've delayed the rebuild further.

Nevertheless, my proposal.

Number 1. Like NFL, Top 4 teams cannot gain a FA unless they lose one, or 3 players retire

Number 2 - The draft this might be a bit unpopular but the main idea is getting the comp even and giving everyone a chance and to vary the top 8.
Reverse order draft but one small change.
18th Picks 1+6
17th Picks 2+7
16th Picks 3+8
15th Picks 4+9
14th Picks 5+10
13th 11
14th 12 etc.

Say if Essendon finish bottom they have pick 1+6 right. And if Hooker leaves on a lucrative offer, they would receive End of First round compensation.
Now say if 13th lost a FA on a big offer they would receive a pick directly after so 13th would effectively have pick 11+12.

Yes, this could encourage tanking for sure but the main point is to make the weaker sides competitive faster.

I'm still contemplating a salary cap solution...

Let the debate begin

Madness. Back to tanking again and it isn't FA if a player cant go to the club he wants to go to. Why is there such a rush for sides to get up the ladder quickly. It can happen if you are smart enough without getting the tanking going again. WB are a perfect example. We wouldn't even be having this debate if it was 2009.

 

[Luke_sainters]

Madness. Back to tanking again and it isn't FA if a player cant go to the club he wants to go to. Why is there such a rush for sides to get up the ladder quickly. It can happen if you are smart enough without getting the tanking going again. WB are a perfect example. We wouldn't even be having this debate if it was 2009.

Okay so then lets wait 10 years, for melbourne stk lions to be competitive.
The FA rules also stop people going to win flags like Lake did, Frawley etc.
And besides I want to see the bottom sides "More competitive" and a better chance of making the 8
Anyway if you're happy with an uneven competition thats fine, I'd like to see more equality.
Imagine if we got to a point where there were 15 teams in contention to the top 8 how exciting would that be?

 

[plugger66]

Okay so then lets wait 10 years, for melbourne stk lions to be competitive.
The FA rules also stop people going to win flags like Lake did, Frawley etc.
And besides I want to see the bottom sides "More competitive" and a better chance of making the 8
Anyway if you're happy with an uneven competition thats fine, I'd like to see more equality.
Imagine if we got to a point where there were 15 teams in contention to the top 8 how exciting would that be?

Why does it have to be 10 years? Is that a rule? Seems the WB broke it then. Young people these days just want a quick fix on everything with minimal pain. The competition has been uneven since time began. All comps are. There has to be top and bottom so that is why we have a draft and a SC to help bottom sides. We don't have to help them even more by encouraging tanking again. Now that is what really wrecks a competition. And I think 13 sides are in contention for the 8 this year. Nothing wrong with that. As I said if it was 2009 no Saints supporter would give a stuff.

 

[L_W_P]

Hate the idea of extra picks for bottom teams. The extra picks didn't help Carlton or Melbourne did they? Sure you get to bring in more top talent but if you don't have the development setup in place you end up with a team full of guys like Gibbs, Walker, Watts and Sylvia.

We are never going to have a fair and equal competition. Until we get everyone playing everyone twice, all with the same amount of travel, same number of days break between matches, avoiding playing a team that got to stay at home while you traveled the week before, with both sides at full fitness and with equal FTA exposure and shared gate revenue then the comp will be unequal and unfair. That's not even mentioning a hard salary cap on both player wages AND off field spending as well as all teams being able to train in a central location so as not to cause a player's body undue stress with travel.

We had 3 years at the top from 2008-2010. In 2009 we were the greatest defensive team in the history of this sport.

Our current position has nothing to do with the equality in the way the game is run. It has everything to do with the people who ran our club at the time making some genuinely poor decisions. How much would we love the Tasmania deal right now? Imagine what we could do with those extra funds. Or if we had spent more money, time and effort into building our developmental program under Ross Lyon to fast track guys like Armo and Steven. Or if we had spent more money, time and effort on medical/fitness staff under Grant Thomas to keep Hammers, X, Ball and Kosi on the field in September?

Now it appears that we have those base levels covered and it's just a matter of keeping things rolling on the field and so far so good on that front.

Im certainly not going to defend the AFL and say that things are fine as they are (they're not) but there's a part of me that can't help but feel all this 'equalization' talk is drummed up by the 24/7 news cycle that we now live in. Need to fill up air time? Talk about a 'radical plan' to change the draft or update the fixture and you can drag that out to fill lulls in the actual news for days or weeks at a time.

The more the people in charge keep tampering with the system the more they will have to continue to tamper with it to balance things out again. Hell we even have people talking about how the points system for the draft gives teams too much of a leg up and so that is now under review ONE season after being introduced. We have no way of being able to tell the impact it's going to have on the competition as a whole for at least 8-10 years when these players are through their primes and we can see how it's all balanced out. But again, that doesn't take into account the coaches, development staff, team performance etc that could impact a player.

In the future we might all talk about how unfair it was for the Giants to get Hopper and Kennedy but if Richmond took Gresham over Rioli they might have won a flag. How can we possibly say the points system is flawed already when none of these players has even taken the field in a serious game yet?

tl;dr - We need to stop trying to artificially balance things in an unbalanced competition. Either balance EVERYTHING (draft, fixture, travel, rest, salary caps) or accept the the game is never going to have 18 clubs on equal terms and just hope that your team can perform with whatever restrictions you see them having.

 

[Luke_sainters]

Why does it have to be 10 years? Is that a rule? Seems the WB broke it then. Young people these days just want a quick fix on everything with minimal pain. The competition has been uneven since time began. All comps are. There has to be top and bottom so that is why we have a draft and a SC to help bottom sides. We don't have to help them even more by encouraging tanking again. Now that is what really wrecks a competition. And I think 13 sides are in contention for the 8 this year. Nothing wrong with that. As I said if it was 2009 no Saints supporter would give a stuff.

Never said it would apply to every team.
But Hawks have won 3 in a row and will probably get 4.
Realistically, there is probably 3 teams that can win the flag
I don't want to turn this comp into the EPL which is where its headed.
09' different 16 teams not AS competitive.

L_W_P
You say make everything equal? impossible no system in any game is flawless right? But you can try, make it more even more widespread.
And I didn't come here today expecting everyone would agree, but thats my view on how the comp should or could move forward and thats not going to change.
However, if nothing like this happens I would love to come back to this convo in 3 years time so we can measure the progress...

 

[gringo2011]

Why does it have to be 10 years? Is that a rule? Seems the WB broke it then. Young people these days just want a quick fix on everything with minimal pain. The competition has been uneven since time began. All comps are. There has to be top and bottom so that is why we have a draft and a SC to help bottom sides. We don't have to help them even more by encouraging tanking again. Now that is what really wrecks a competition. And I think 13 sides are in contention for the 8 this year. Nothing wrong with that. As I said if it was 2009 no Saints supporter would give a stuff.

Teams are still tanking so I don't see it will make a difference. Teams will lose to get pick one if they can't make it and book all their surgeries early anyway. The AFL like to show they did something to discourage it but nothing actually stops it.

 

[plugger66]

Teams are still tanking so I don't see it will make a difference. Teams will lose to get pick one if they can't make it and book all their surgeries early anyway. The AFL like to show they did something to discourage it but nothing actually stops it.

What team has tanked since they got rid of the priority picks. I reckon most sides finish where their list and form suggests. Booking surgeries isn't tanking, its common sense if you cant make the finals. Happy for you to tell me all the sides that have tanked in the last 4 years.

Luke Sainters there are 4 sides that can win the flag just about every year. Those are the 4 that finish top 4. We could have won 2 years in a row but for bad luck. I suppose you thought WCE could have won the flag last year? The Hawks picked the right time to become good. When the draft was all arse about because of 2 new sides. They also managed their SC unbelievably we.. Something we hopefully learn from. Encouraging more tanking wrecks the sport. And as pointed out it matters little how many picks you get if you cant manage the players properly. Need to stop looking for short term fixes.

 

[StFly]

I have been talking to a lot of mates about AFL equalisation and I think it needs more measures to make the comp more even and competitive.
STK, Melbourne, Dogs for a period Lions etc referring to the teams down the bottom between 2011-2014 was a tough time and reason for that is the two expansion teams received the best players. Clearly for Saints this period was the wrong time to be down the bottom being severely disadvantaged and clearly would've delayed the rebuild further.

Nevertheless, my proposal.

Number 1. Like NFL, Top 4 teams cannot gain a FA unless they lose one, or 3 players retire

Number 2 - The draft this might be a bit unpopular but the main idea is getting the comp even and giving everyone a chance and to vary the top 8.
Reverse order draft but one small change.
18th Picks 1+6
17th Picks 2+7
16th Picks 3+8
15th Picks 4+9
14th Picks 5+10
13th 11
14th 12 etc.

Say if Essendon finish bottom they have pick 1+6 right. And if Hooker leaves on a lucrative offer, they would receive End of First round compensation.
Now say if 13th lost a FA on a big offer they would receive a pick directly after so 13th would effectively have pick 11+12.

Yes, this could encourage tanking for sure but the main point is to make the weaker sides competitive faster.

I'm still contemplating a salary cap solution...

Let the debate begin

Drafting between GCS and GWS is an aberration as it is only when the VFA joined in to the VFL to create the VFL that would then become the AFL did we have such an influx of clubs into the system. This isn't the norm, it isn't expected that we have such situations in the future, it's an outlier in the normal procedures that you expect from AFL drafting.

Equalisation amounts due to the disparity in club based income outside of the game, where clubA might bring in 1mil and clubB might bring in 14mil, club be then pumps that 14mil into the club, as you do, in order to then improve Y, Y being the football department and your personnel to then bring success to the club and further income due to the success. It's a cycle.

The TPP caps player payments, it does not cap what any club can do to their premises and things around those players, you do not need to alter the TPP, you need to allow everyone the same opportunity to build as opposed to giving more to say the Pies, Eagles and Hawthorn who are the primary money makers in the game, so that they can grow larger at the expense of everyone else.

Equalisation would be each club being solvent and viable, which will not happen whilst the majority are based within 50km of each other.

 

[Luke_sainters]

What team has tanked since they got rid of the priority picks. I reckon most sides finish where their list and form suggests. Booking surgeries isn't tanking, its common sense if you cant make the finals. Happy for you to tell me all the sides that have tanked in the last 4 years.

Luke Sainters there are 4 sides that can win the flag just about every year. Those are the 4 that finish top 4. We could have won 2 years in a row but for bad luck. I suppose you thought WCE could have won the flag last year? The Hawks picked the right time to become good. When the draft was all arse about because of 2 new sides. They also managed their SC unbelievably we.. Something we hopefully learn from. Encouraging more tanking wrecks the sport. And as pointed out it matters little how many picks you get if you cant manage the players properly. Need to stop looking for short term fixes.

Disagree, that 4 teams can win it.
Not this year, not last year.
Not the year before either.

 

[plugger66]

Disagree, that 4 teams can win it.
Not this year, not last year.
Not the year before either.

Ok. did you think WCE could win it last year? And even if you think only 3 can win it this year that doesn't mean it will be the same 3 next season.

 

[Luke_sainters]

Ok. did you think WCE could win it last year? And even if you think only 3 can win it this year that doesn't mean it will be the same 3 next season.

Yeah I did. Not at the start of the season though, but when it progressed they looked likely.
Not necessarily, I never said it was the same teams. But I what I said was the last few years only 3 teams have really been in it.
There is a gap after that.

 

[plugger66]

Yeah I did. Not at the start of the season though, but when it progressed they looked likely.
Not necessarily, I never said it was the same teams. But I what I said was the last few years only 3 teams have really been in it.
There is a gap after that.

Well you have made the statement of 3 teams wrong by your first comment that you didn't think at the start of the year WCE could make it. And there will be gaps every year even if the AFL adopted what you suggested. As long as the same 4 or 5 sides cant win it every year then everything is going ok. I think we need to have a few uncompromised drafts before we panic about the draft.

 

[SaintRick88]

Tough break...