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We need Immanuel Kant, Heidegger, Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, David Hume, Wittgenstein, Schlegel and Nietzsche.
John Stuart Mill, Plato, Aristotle, Hobbes.
And Rene Descartes.
But leave Socrates right out of it.
Sounds like a sprinkling of Saints Disco stalwarts right there?
 
Sep 17, 2010
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Some might argue that any notion of the Left and the Right are in themselves constructs that have arisen from identity politics.

Yeah, it gets confusing nowadays, especially when each opposing side uses it as an insult as well so the terms become loaded. But I think most people still see it as left being liberal/progressive (with the extreme being marxism/communism) vs. right being conservative (with the extreme being fascism and with eugenics thrown into the mix).
 
Yeah, it gets confusing nowadays, especially when each opposing side uses it as an insult as well so the terms become loaded. But I think most people still see it as left being liberal/progressive (with the extreme being marxism/communism) vs. right being conservative (with the extreme being fascism and with eugenics thrown into the mix).


That was what was interesting about one of the Neo fascist groups in Italy. I watched an ABC news piece about this group and they had bits of all sorts of political philosophy. They were isolationists and believed in tariffs, wanted free heath care and education for Italians but not immigrants, wanted to ban immigration and worshipped Mussolini and used the fascist propaganda style flags and banners/ symbols etc but also used posters in the communist style. It was like another mixed bag of ideas all chucked together.

Basically I think people are feeling left out of the mainstream systems with globalisation and realise that corporations are going to benefit but not the poorer people in the west who have grown accustomed to a lifestyle subsidised through exploitation of the people of poorer parts of the world, many of which are starting to demand some of that lifestyle for themselves.

The economic system has been recently heavily weighted towards the extremely wealthy on top of that and the outlook for a lot of people especially in the US and parts of the EU are bleak.
 
This is unlikely to be popular because it seems like we have quite a few fans of Peterson on here, but I think she summed up my feelings on him but I'm probably not quite as extremely emoted by him as she seems to be though. He's an alternative viewpoint and that shouldn't be dismissed even if I don't agree with it. Stifling peoples ideologies hardly ever works out well.

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/19/jordan-peterson-and-fascist-mysticism/
 

Ekomaira

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watching the footy show and they did a bit where Nathan Brown jumped out of a plane and gave us his tip for the flag... well he said Essendon, but I dunno... the colours look... I dunno. you judge for yourself

OrE5CFE.jpg
 

Gangnam Saint

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Just came back to HK from Oz with the family for a couple of weeks and loved being back.
Gotta say though I found the whole fine, tax & regulate environment ridiculously stifling - I mean, it is OUT OF CONTROL.
Felt like every move, you have to watch yourself from leaving your car in a parking bay for a minute too long or being a couple over the speed limit to even the crazy cost of electricity and water.

Sounds strange coz I am under a hardcore authoritarian regime here in China but I feel more free - The govt messes with me less, stays out of my life, utilities are cheaper and doesn't try to nickel and dime its citizens for every minor infraction.

When will Australians say "enough is enough"?
 
Just came back to HK from Oz with the family for a couple of weeks and loved being back.
Gotta say though I found the whole fine, tax & regulate environment ridiculously stifling - I mean, it is OUT OF CONTROL.
Felt like every move, you have to watch yourself from leaving your car in a parking bay for a minute too long or being a couple over the speed limit to even the crazy cost of electricity and water.

Sounds strange coz I am under a hardcore authoritarian regime here in China but I feel more free - The govt messes with me less, stays out of my life, utilities are cheaper and doesn't try to nickel and dime its citizens for every minor infraction.

When will Australians say "enough is enough"?


They are all privatised now so we need to guarantee them income. Our roads, our parking services, our jails etc are all money making exercises. The government buys it all then sells it for nothing to companies that need to increase profits every year. It's the one good thing about a semi communist system, the books don't need to balance in a four year term and selling off publicly owned utilities isn't as easy.
 

Gangnam Saint

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They are all privatised now so we need to guarantee them income. Our roads, our parking services, our jails etc are all money making exercises. The government buys it all then sells it for nothing to companies that need to increase profits every year. It's the one good thing about a semi communist system, the books don't need to balance in a four year term and selling off publicly owned utilities isn't as easy.
Reckon we've lost our way. Where does it end?
 
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This is unlikely to be popular because it seems like we have quite a few fans of Peterson on here, but I think she summed up my feelings on him but I'm probably not quite as extremely emoted by him as she seems to be though. He's an alternative viewpoint and that shouldn't be dismissed even if I don't agree with it. Stifling peoples ideologies hardly ever works out well.

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/19/jordan-peterson-and-fascist-mysticism/

It’s an interesting perspective. I’ve been reading a lot of the Peterson critiques (and boy have there been a lot since the Newman interview!!) with interest and seeing the different way people come at him.

This perspective, where she says what he’s saying isn’t new and, in fact, has been said many times throughout history (linking him the right and far-right) and using examples doesn’t surprise me because it’s a damn effective ploy and she’s not wrong per se…. But likening Peterson to figures and arguments in the past with right-wing views doesn’t mean Peterson himself is the same, no matter how much his critics want to believe it (I believe him when he says he is a liberal with an interest/loathing of authoritarian regimes) and I honestly believe that linking him to “the right” is a tactic used to alienate many more liberal people attracted to his ideas. I don’t blame them, as a lifelong left voter like myself, this tactic works well on me, and would probably work better if I didn’t have a psychology background and share the many misgivings Peterson has about Social Sciences and their far-reaching and, I would argue, destructive influence on a functioning, free society.

It’s just that I’d argue we are in a very unique time in human history now with the internet and that history isn’t a great guide for why Peterson is popular right now. I believe strongly there is a growing sense of unease out there with where we are heading as a human race and how technology, the internet/algorithms and how they are manipulated combined monitoring could fundamentally change us in ways we can’t imagine (one of the founders of Facebook said as much, that should set alarm bells off). I think so many people have that fear and yet can’t put it into words. Their leaders don’t mean what they say and can’t be trusted, they have a feeling social media uses info against them, the media they read contains more and more “everything is relative” post-modern viewpoints (and if an article doesn’t, just read the comments below to confuse the hell out of you).

A guy comes along that is smart enough to navigate the “everything is relative” maze and avoid the traps they set for everyone, talk about universal values such as “truth”, reference applied science over social sciences and is tech savvy enough to get his videos out on a popular platform. Peterson is all of the above and I am not at all surprised that he is as popular as he is because he has tapped into something that a lot of people feel they need right now.

He’s not perfect and I don’t think he’s a messiah at all but I’m very skeptical of trying to lump him constantly in with the “right-wingers” as is so often the case, regardless of the people he sometimes appears on interviews for etc. The political shapes of the world are changing fast and new alliances are being formed all of the time that simply don’t fit into the old left/right paradigm and narrative. It is all really complex and fast-moving.

What I will say is that I have a strong suspicion we are living through a very turbulent time in human history right now in the world of politics and culture that will be much easier to understand and dissect accurately when looking back on it rather than what we are trying to do while living in it. At least one can’t say politics and culture are boring anymore in the face of all this uncertainty, not sure if that is a good thing or not.
 
It’s an interesting perspective. I’ve been reading a lot of the Peterson critiques (and boy have there been a lot since the Newman interview!!) with interest and seeing the different way people come at him.

This perspective, where she says what he’s saying isn’t new and, in fact, has been said many times throughout history (linking him the right and far-right) and using examples doesn’t surprise me because it’s a damn effective ploy and she’s not wrong per se…. But likening Peterson to figures and arguments in the past with right-wing views doesn’t mean Peterson himself is the same, no matter how much his critics want to believe it (I believe him when he says he is a liberal with an interest/loathing of authoritarian regimes) and I honestly believe that linking him to “the right” is a tactic used to alienate many more liberal people attracted to his ideas. I don’t blame them, as a lifelong left voter like myself, this tactic works well on me, and would probably work better if I didn’t have a psychology background and share the many misgivings Peterson has about Social Sciences and their far-reaching and, I would argue, destructive influence on a functioning, free society.

It’s just that I’d argue we are in a very unique time in human history now with the internet and that history isn’t a great guide for why Peterson is popular right now. I believe strongly there is a growing sense of unease out there with where we are heading as a human race and how technology, the internet/algorithms and how they are manipulated combined monitoring could fundamentally change us in ways we can’t imagine (one of the founders of Facebook said as much, that should set alarm bells off). I think so many people have that fear and yet can’t put it into words. Their leaders don’t mean what they say and can’t be trusted, they have a feeling social media uses info against them, the media they read contains more and more “everything is relative” post-modern viewpoints (and if an article doesn’t, just read the comments below to confuse the hell out of you).

A guy comes along that is smart enough to navigate the “everything is relative” maze and avoid the traps they set for everyone, talk about universal values such as “truth”, reference applied science over social sciences and is tech savvy enough to get his videos out on a popular platform. Peterson is all of the above and I am not at all surprised that he is as popular as he is because he has tapped into something that a lot of people feel they need right now.

He’s not perfect and I don’t think he’s a messiah at all but I’m very skeptical of trying to lump him constantly in with the “right-wingers” as is so often the case, regardless of the people he sometimes appears on interviews for etc. The political shapes of the world are changing fast and new alliances are being formed all of the time that simply don’t fit into the old left/right paradigm and narrative. It is all really complex and fast-moving.

What I will say is that I have a strong suspicion we are living through a very turbulent time in human history right now in the world of politics and culture that will be much easier to understand and dissect accurately when looking back on it rather than what we are trying to do while living in it. At least one can’t say politics and culture are boring anymore in the face of all this uncertainty, not sure if that is a good thing or not.


Yeah that's probably fair, he's got some points that make sense. It's definitely a confusing time in history and the way so many people have become almost parasitic drains on the finances of the worlds economies and are celebrated for it makes people distrustful. Politicians are seen as corporate enablers on both sides it seems. Companies are using globalisation as a way of avoiding paying high wages to workers while most are taking every opportunity to avoid paying taxes. The system has always had parasites but now any large company expects to have their turn on the tit and that leaves little for services.

I think a lot of people on both sides think the system is starting to show stress fractures and the future looks uncertain but both sides blame different things. The whole pro masculinity thing is a symptom of the general feeling of hopelessness and lack of control.
 

Gangnam Saint

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Yeah that's probably fair, he's got some points that make sense. It's definitely a confusing time in history and the way so many people have become almost parasitic drains on the finances of the worlds economies and are celebrated for it makes people distrustful. Politicians are seen as corporate enablers on both sides it seems. Companies are using globalisation as a way of avoiding paying high wages to workers while most are taking every opportunity to avoid paying taxes. The system has always had parasites but now any large company expects to have their turn on the tit and that leaves little for services.

I think a lot of people on both sides think the system is starting to show stress fractures and the future looks uncertain but both sides blame different things. The whole pro masculinity thing is a symptom of the general feeling of hopelessness and lack of control.

We have the separation of church and state but we probably need to add a couple more pillars to that - a separation of church, state, corporations and unions.
Only then can we start to untangle the rampant corruption and conflicts of interest.

Reckon you're right the pro-masculinity movement is a reaction but probably due more to the attack on the sacred masculine. The whole "stand down", don't defend yourself, 3rd wave feminist misandry, men are all idiots, rapists and responsible for all the ills in the world nonsense. IMHO the pro-masculine snap back is a progressive, positive re-assertion of modern men who treat women with respect, take care of their responsibilities and will defend themselves and their families if required. At least, that's what I have seen thus far.
 
We have the separation of church and state but we probably need to add a couple more pillars to that - a separation of church, state, corporations and unions.
Only then can we start to untangle the rampant corruption and conflicts of interest.

Reckon you're right the pro-masculinity movement is a reaction but probably due more to the attack on the sacred masculine. The whole "stand down", don't defend yourself, 3rd wave feminist misandry, men are all idiots, rapists and responsible for all the ills in the world nonsense. IMHO the pro-masculine snap back is a progressive, positive re-assertion of modern men who treat women with respect, take care of their responsibilities and will defend themselves and their families if required. At least, that's what I have seen thus far.


The pro-masculinity thing manifests in different ways. There is that kind of dumb bro code kind of thing out there with a really negative kind of feel to it which is quite misogynistic. There are really stupid aggressive feminists too by the way but it's a sort of way to legitimise the movement. Not all of them are bad but all have bad elements. I think there is a strange backlash thing that happens when ever people feel things go too far one way. The way women are depicted in pornography is getting more extreme and more aggressive and degrading all the time as it proliferates and someone is always trying to do something that will stand out. It runs contrary to the oppressive feminazi thought police that people claim runs through society.

It's more the culture war thing of the educated tend to be more left leaning these days and there is almost an expectation that you follow a well worn rhetoric of paternalistic helpfulness where you feel superior at the same time as needing the fringe dwellers who don't want help to feel good about yourself. I can see the failings but don't think anyone really has any positive answers. Most messiahs turn out to be shams at the end of the day. Society needs to fall apart to be put back together again I think.

Definitely see the separation of power needing a shake up. In Australia we now spend $4 out of every $10 at Coles and Woolworths and their subsidiaries. If others want to come in they need to undercut which is all based on predatory pricing and aggressively pushing suppliers to take less, even sometimes below cost. It's insanity and will get worse as the duopoly keeps strengthening it's self with no regulation holding them back.
 
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Lol, there are many forms of slavery my friend.

Our freedom only extends to to how far the machine wants you to be.

Slave to laws. Slave to debt. Slave to big pharma... The list goes on.
Well, I don’t necessarily agree or disagree. I will say the above examples are all a choice though. Not sure too many actual slaves have that right.
 

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When people stop bitching and realise how ******* lucky we are to live in this country.
i would like to strive to be constantly improving the way of life for everyone in this country ... that mentality is accepting the below average life because its better than the poor life of other places ...
there are lots of things to be grateful for in this country but damn theres still a lot that can be done to make it better for more than just the upper class
 
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