Discussion Random Discussion

[CALL ME SNAKE]

Sadly the creator of 'Pac Man' passed away today.
I wonder if he made this noise when he died
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...CBswAA&usg=AFQjCNF5MGkIaGKu7yMZM7-o3SxnOy9GTA

 

[Periphery]

The reason the second part rarely happens is because the government department who oversee's it is generally *%$#.
For the same reason the government department manage to make a hash of running the stuff that private businesses can do efficiently.
Left to its own devices you end up with huge government departments which don't achieve much.

Privatisation of electricity LOL at that example.
Just last weekend someone was telling me how back in the day they would run 12 hour shifts and if someone didn't turn up they'd be on for 36 with extra time. They employed a huge amount of people more than what they needed. The whole thing was a joke.
Why do you consider government owned power was better.

What we don't have is investment into the future. But that was just one aspect of an incredibly shitty operation.

Do some research on 'gold plating' by the Australian private electricity suppliers.

Anecdotes aren't evidence.

There is nothing stopping government entities being as efficiently as private if the desire is there (the ABC is an good example of this - even if the cuts are driven by less than ideal motives).

Also, lol at thinking private is so efficient and government is not when such a large number of businesses don't make it past their first year. Talk about wasted $. People think private companies are more 'efficient' because of numbers on a balance sheet, but ignore the fact that this often comes at a cost that is directly passed onto consumers or society in ways that aren't as easy to account for.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Do some research on 'gold plating' by the Australian private electricity suppliers.

Anecdotes aren't evidence.

There is nothing stopping government entities being as efficiently as private if the desire is there (the ABC is an good example of this - even if the cuts are driven by less than ideal motives).

Also, lol at thinking private is so efficient and government is not when such a large number of businesses don't make it past their first year. Talk about wasted $. People think private companies are more 'efficient' because of numbers on a balance sheet, but ignore the fact that this often comes at a cost that is directly passed onto consumers or society in ways that aren't as easy to account for.

Yeah ignore competition.
Most non-monopoly companies can't pass anything on to their customers. The most efficient do ok, the least fail.

You have your opinion , while most of the world recognise public services as inefficient bureaucracies.
So go ahead and Lol.

 

[PoppedCorn]

Yes the safety/working conditions/etc has been a good thing.
BUT
The blackmail for wages is a bad thing.
Dock workers are not harder working than any other workers. They simply blackmailed for more money.
So we have a society where those in a position to block a particular service get more money than others.
I'd put the construction industry in a similar category.

Understood.
A mates mate works driving a crane at a port, loading containers onto ships
Big coin, BIG coin.....serious job tho, big responsibilities

But when big companies like mine who near on made a billion euros globally try to take things out of the eba for wage workers but keep them in for salary workers then the union does what I pay it to do
Talk to the boss on behalf of me.
Yes we get good coin, yes it's above award....no we don't hold the company ransom, we all know what the company makes, we have quarter updates on the company so we don't go in there at EBA time demanding 8% lol
Tbh most of the time the shit fit is silly things like sick certs, or wanting to be able to bank more than 80hrs overtime to cash in later

But yeah, the big unions and some of the corruptness has given all unions a massive bad name

I can see why people are anti and why others like me are pro.
Our new EBA negs start in April......only once has it dragged out past the june deadline
Both sides are usually pretty amicable

 

[Joffaboy]

Everyone who is anti union should give back their Annual Leave, LSL, Sick Leave, overtime, 38 hour week etc etc etc.

All won by unions and organised labour even for entitled non unionists.

 

[PoppedCorn]

Agreed Joff
The worst thing is having people that won't cough up ten bucks a week to join but gladly rub it in saying 'why should I, I get what you get anyway'

Shows me what kind of person they really are.

Anyhoo
I've heard as many good stories of the Union as i have heard bad
No diff to pollies and blokes who sell cars from a yard lol

 

[Persevering Saint]

Everyone who is anti union should give back their Annual Leave, LSL, Sick Leave, overtime, 38 hour week etc etc etc.

All won by unions and organised labour even for entitled non unionists.

Fortunately, they don't need to give up Labour Day, as that has nothing to do with the history of the union movement...

 

[Periphery]

Yeah ignore competition.
Most non-monopoly companies can't pass anything on to their customers. The most efficient do ok, the least fail.

You have your opinion , while most of the world recognise public services as inefficient bureaucracies.
So go ahead and Lol.

Edit: Not worth continuing this discussion. You clearly aren't going to change your mind no matter what.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Edit: Not worth continuing this discussion. You clearly aren't going to change your mind no matter what.

Not if you try to convince me that government departments are efficient.
Because..........
They aren't.

So build them up and we all pay more tax.

 

[Periphery]

Not if you try to convince me that government departments are efficient.
Because..........
They aren't.

So build them up and we all pay more tax.

You seem to have completely missed the point of what I was saying.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

You seem to have completely missed the point of what I was saying.

You seem to be saying that it doesn't matter how much the government wastes in providing a service, if its a service we have to have.
I disagree.

I don't mind it if the government finds a way to make the public service efficient as an alternative to privatisation, but they don't seem to be able to do that.

 

[Periphery]

You seem to be saying that it doesn't matter how much the government wastes in providing a service, if its a service we have to have.
I disagree.

Except that nowhere did I say anything that could even remotely be interpreted as that.

 

[gringo2011]

Would be interesting to see the average number of deaths they have on building sites compared to Aust.
People can dislike some of our more 'militant' unions here but our safety record is very good.
Even with the CFMEU being very strict with health n safety it is still a very dangerous industry with many deaths each yr.
Some of the countries erecting buildings at break neck spead (China, UAE for eg) unfortunately have atrocious fatality numbers.

I'm a business owner and I find the disrespect for unions bizarre. People don't understand history and that people died for the right to work a 5 day week and have reasonable wages. As many politicians and CEOs are criminally inclined as union officials but the mythology goes on and the people who should support unions use it as an excuse not to pay their contributions.

 

[theprospect]

Did anyone else here see JET tonight?!? What a ******* great show, their first in over 6 years. Was incredible

 

[Plumber66]

Do some research on 'gold plating' by the Australian private electricity suppliers.

Anecdotes aren't evidence.

There is nothing stopping government entities being as efficiently as private if the desire is there (the ABC is an good example of this - even if the cuts are driven by less than ideal motives).

Also, lol at thinking private is so efficient and government is not when such a large number of businesses don't make it past their first year. Talk about wasted $. People think private companies are more 'efficient' because of numbers on a balance sheet, but ignore the fact that this often comes at a cost that is directly passed onto consumers or society in ways that aren't as easy to account for.

There you have it. Well said.

There is also a difference between a business and what can be called a public good.

As a society we have to decide what basic services a government should provide. These are goods that should not be in private hands.

There is a difference between an enterprise run for the general good of people and one that is run for profit. The latter won't give a shit about people. And government looks away because it's one less problem for them.

The intangible in all this is the value of keeping a coherent society.

We can cry about welfare all we want, but unless you create jobs, there's no point cutting the dole as it drives people on the street. Then crime goes up and you waste more money on police.

It's an endless cycle. Therefore if government provides the safety net, we all benefit.

And yet, we don't see an outrage about the massive fuel subsidies we pay to mining companies and farmers.

That's welfare, us it not?

Oh, but these companies create jobs.

But didn't we just say that business has to viable on it's own? Isn't that why we killed the auto industry and put thousands on the scrap heap?

The age of entitlement is over, for some. Usually the weakest and most vulnerable.

All animals are equal but some are more equal than others.

 

[Joffaboy]

There you have it. Well said.

There is also a difference between a business and what can be called a public good.

As a society we have to decide what basic services a government should provide. These are goods that should not be in private hands.

There is a difference between an enterprise run for the general good of people and one that is run for profit. The latter won't give a shit about people. And government looks away because it's one less problem for them.

The intangible in all this is the value of keeping a coherent society.

We can cry about welfare all we want, but unless you create jobs, there's no point cutting the dole as it drives people on the street. Then crime goes up and you waste more money on police.

It's an endless cycle. Therefore if government provides the safety net, we all benefit.

And yet, we don't see an outrage about the massive fuel subsidies we pay to mining companies and farmers.

That's welfare, us it not?

Oh, but these companies create jobs.

But didn't we just say that business has to viable on it's own? Isn't that why we killed the auto industry and put thousands on the scrap heap?

The age of entitlement is over, for some. Usually the weakest and most vulnerable.

All animals are equal but some are more equal than others.

And this type of opinion and belief currently is why people are turning to One Nation and other alternatives as they are sick of the hypocricy of the system.

When the ALP was in govt they had certain ministers who after their tenure went to work for the very groups they were responsible for (Martin Ferguson and Stephen Conroy are two that come to mind). HUGE conflict of interest. Who were they working for in govt, the people or themselves?

Then we have the LNP attacking the unemployed, the disabled and the aged with bogus and fraudulent demands for repayment of welfare, while at the same time using taxpayer dollars to fly to buy houses, and go to footy matches and live life high on the hog on taxpayer (yours and my) expense.

Then as debt spirals under this government, they decide to give corporations a 45 billion dollar tax break, but cut expenditure on schools and Medicare and everything else that is in the public interest.

I mentioned One Nation before. They are as dangerously ignorant, racist, and stupid as Trump but without the power. They are not the answer, however the electorate is seething at this rank cash grab by the political and big business class.

This government is insipid and weak. Turnbull is our worst PM since McMahon including Abbott.

Until they look at the revenue side of the equation we are in deep shit. But all they do is give money to their corporate mates, take plane rides to events on taxpayer money, get high paid jobs with the big business after politics, and never go after corporates who pay zero tax.

The people have seen through the bullshit and are angry on both the left and the right.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Government members rorting their allowances totally pisses me off.
The cost of a few overpriced trips is inconsequential compared to taxes or welfare paid to millions, but its the message.

Its like your mum telling you not to take drugs while she's taking ice. Its telling the whole country to grab whatever they can get away with, deserved or not.

I recently had a business trip to Romania. I flew in via London with my wife and son and extended the trip for a holiday ( I left them while i flew budget carrier to Romania ). Of course i was only claiming my share of the transport and the business trip share of the accommodation My boss told me to take my family out to dinner and claim it.
When i put in my costs to the company it was less than what Julie Bishop spent going to the Mornington Peninsula from Canberra.
If i'd gone totally stupid and claimed a shitload the company would have pulled me up.
But i could easily have not given a shit about the air ticket prices and they would have paid. I could have bought snacks in airports that i wouldn't normally eat if i was paying for myself and claimed it, but i didn't. I could have found ways to claim hundreds of dollars more but i didn't. I find that sort of thing childish.
I flew Air Whiz from England to Europe. No different from economy on any other airline, except i had to pay 2 pounds for a drink. Big deal ( i claimed it ).

 

[Brains Trust66]

Fortunately, they don't need to give up Labour Day, as that has nothing to do with the history of the union movement...

Obviously that Roberts guy doesn't know the difference between the Labor party and Labour , people working in jobs . We don't celebrate Labour day to celebrate the Labor party, what a dill.


On iPad using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Joffaboy]

Government members rorting their allowances totally pisses me off.
The cost of a few overpriced trips is inconsequential compared to taxes or welfare paid to millions, but its the message.

Its like your mum telling you not to take drugs while she's taking ice. Its telling the whole country to grab whatever they can get away with, deserved or not.

I recently had a business trip to Romania. I flew in via London with my wife and son and extended the trip for a holiday ( I left them while i flew budget carrier to Romania ). Of course i was only claiming my share of the transport and the business trip share of the accommodation My boss told me to take my family out to dinner and claim it.
When i put in my costs to the company it was less than what Julie Bishop spent going to the Mornington Peninsula from Canberra.
If i'd gone totally stupid and claimed a shitload the company would have pulled me up.
But i could easily have not given a shit about the air ticket prices and they would have paid. I could have bought snacks in airports that i wouldn't normally eat if i was paying for myself and claimed it, but i didn't. I could have found ways to claim hundreds of dollars more but i didn't. I find that sort of thing childish.
I flew Air Whiz from England to Europe. No different from economy on any other airline, except i had to pay 2 pounds for a drink. Big deal ( i claimed it ).

Great post.
I wll be in HK, Malaysia and Singapore for busines in May. My wife is joining me in Singapore after work for a couple of days.
While she will stay in my paid for accommodation, we then have to pay for any extra days wr stay and there is absolutely no thought of us hitting the company for her flights.

Granted, I will be able to claim the extra days as part of business travel on my tax, but would never blatantly rip off the company.

I am with you. I think it is childish and pretty sneaky.
Politician have no worry of spending our tax while calling us leaners though.

 

[sunny3193]

As long as I have breathed, unions have been the devil incarnate.
And as long as I continue to breath, unions will continue to be the devil incarnate.
You'd think after all this time that the "threat" would

Great post.
I wll be in HK, Malaysia and Singapore for busines in May. My wife is joining me in Singapore after work for a couple of days.
While she will stay in my paid for accommodation, we then have to pay for any extra days wr stay and there is absolutely no thought of us hitting the company for her flights.

Granted, I will be able to claim the extra days as part of business travel on my tax, but would never blatantly rip off the company.

I am with you. I think it is childish and pretty sneaky.
Politician have no worry of spending our tax while calling us leaners though.

On your expenses: are you required to use your own credit card?
To be refunded within a certain timeframe subject to approval by grandfather?
That was the obligation I lived with for over a decade.
Brilliant corporate governance.

THAT should be the policy at all institutions; public or private.

 

[gringo2011]

There you have it. Well said.

There is also a difference between a business and what can be called a public good.

As a society we have to decide what basic services a government should provide. These are goods that should not be in private hands.

There is a difference between an enterprise run for the general good of people and one that is run for profit. The latter won't give a shit about people. And government looks away because it's one less problem for them.

The intangible in all this is the value of keeping a coherent society.

We can cry about welfare all we want, but unless you create jobs, there's no point cutting the dole as it drives people on the street. Then crime goes up and you waste more money on police.

It's an endless cycle. Therefore if government provides the safety net, we all benefit.

And yet, we don't see an outrage about the massive fuel subsidies we pay to mining companies and farmers.

That's welfare, us it not?

Oh, but these companies create jobs.

But didn't we just say that business has to viable on it's own? Isn't that why we killed the auto industry and put thousands on the scrap heap?

The age of entitlement is over, for some. Usually the weakest and most vulnerable.

All animals are equal but some are more equal than others.

Yep once the SEC, Telstra, Railways etc employed huge numbers of people who learnt a trade and went out and became miners, sparkies, plumbers, engineers etc. Now we put people on 457 visas because we don't have skilled labour. The whole selling of public assets is more to do with business being unable to compete when the public entity doesn't need to make bigger profits every year. It's funny how once Medibank was sold they had to raise the fees by another huge margin.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

There you have it. Well said.

There is also a difference between a business and what can be called a public good.

As a society we have to decide what basic services a government should provide. These are goods that should not be in private hands.

There is a difference between an enterprise run for the general good of people and one that is run for profit. The latter won't give a shit about people. And government looks away because it's one less problem for them.

The intangible in all this is the value of keeping a coherent society.

We can cry about welfare all we want, but unless you create jobs, there's no point cutting the dole as it drives people on the street. Then crime goes up and you waste more money on police.

It's an endless cycle. Therefore if government provides the safety net, we all benefit.

And yet, we don't see an outrage about the massive fuel subsidies we pay to mining companies and farmers.

That's welfare, us it not?

Oh, but these companies create jobs.

But didn't we just say that business has to viable on it's own? Isn't that why we killed the auto industry and put thousands on the scrap heap?

The age of entitlement is over, for some. Usually the weakest and most vulnerable.

All animals are equal but some are more equal than others.

To me one of the things is that people don't see the full ramifications and the flow on affect.
The Automotive Industry was/is a huge thing, supporting far more than the direct employee's we are hearing about in the new.
Many of the jobs suit people who are not suited to getting university degree's or dealing with the public.

We hear that .."we don't need it , look the economy is fine", "hey look at these great cheap cars we can get from overseas".
The economy is fine now. It hasn't hit yet. The full unemployment hasn't hit yet.

We are apparently a "developed economy"
That means the service industry generates more wealth than the industrial sector.
We also have one of the highest GDP per capita.

How can that work if we get more and more service and less industry?
The definition above does not mean that the jobs in the service industry are more lucrative than those in the industrial sector.

Can i afford to get someone to mow my lawn or hang my televison , if my own job only pays the same as someone mowing lawns?

If we look at the USA there are corporations like Google/Amazon/Ford/GM/Boeing. Huge and diverse. The list is huge.
There are plenty of over payed bastards working for all of the companies. They don't mow their own lawn, or hang their own televisions or do their own landscaping etc.

If you get a degree and get a job with one of these companies you have a chance of doing OK and going up to a level where you also don't mow your own lawn.

Take away all these opportunities like we are doing in Australia , and who the hell are all the service providers going to provide services to?

Importers, Local subsidiaries, Agents, simply do not offer the same opportunities.

No girls and boys its not viable for you ALL to get a job in IT. IT is a service industry.

 

[borderbarry]

To all the ex Policemen and women reading this. Can you imagine what would have happened to you if you put in bodgy travelling claims similar to what Susan Ley did? You certainly would have been charged with some sort of fraud> How come you never hear of charges being laid or contemplated against Politicians? All they get is they may lose their position as a Minister. There is nothing done about their 6 digit House of Reps or Senate salary.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Yep once the SEC, Telstra, Railways etc employed huge numbers of people who learnt a trade and went out and became miners, sparkies, plumbers, engineers etc. Now we put people on 457 visas because we don't have skilled labour. The whole selling of public assets is more to do with business being unable to compete when the public entity doesn't need to make bigger profits every year. It's funny how once Medibank was sold they had to raise the fees by another huge margin.

Growing up close to the SEC , i sort of considered things to work like a pendulum.
The SEC was a massive venture providing power to victoria. They built massive infrastructure , owned and administered an entire town. It was a way of life as much as a job in gippsland. They had world standard cutting edge engineering ability.

BUT:
The pendulum swung to far. My friends got apprenticeships, they had way more tradies and apprentices than what they needed and they got what amounted to pretty poor training. Yeah as 16 year old's they thought it was great to get paid to go to work at night and sleep through the shift, but i'm not sure that worked for them long term. There was already a stigma outside the SEC. Businesses were loathe to take on workers that had previously worked at the SEC. Things that happened routinely were just shit. Someone wanting to do a small amount of electrical work on a dredger has to wait 2 hours for a rigger so that it his small tool box can be attached to a hoist with a U-Bolt sort of shit. Safety or Bullshit?
People spent half their time doing "homies", the SEC materials were considered free for all with just so many people turning a blind eye.
SEC used to provide busses to take people too and from work. What kind of culture is it when, with full knowledge of the bus driver they pop out the back window of the bus, so they can lay lengths of steel along the aisle.

So the pendulum swung back the other way.
It probably got too profit driven. There is no future planning. Maintenance is no-where near as sophisticated as what it was. Training is not as good.
( Hazelwood lost a complete unit at one point due to using poorly trained operators ).

 

[Plumber66]

Not if you try to convince me that government departments are efficient.
Because..........
They aren't.

So build them up and we all pay more tax.

Public services are not business and are not there to be run at a profit. Can they become more efficient? Absolutely.

But guess what? They employ people who pay tax and spend their income on consumer goods, thereby tipping money back into the economy and boosting bank profits through their mortgages.

Unions are not squeaky clean. Then again, they don't bring in 457s at the expense of local jobs who once again, tip there income back into the economy instead of sending it overseas to their family.

Nor do unions exploit 7-11 workers aye?

It's funny how we retain our right to negotiate a fair income when applying for a job, but when the unions do it, it's evil.

What about all the crap business owners who suck money out for their own benefit and go bust?

The majority of businesses are just as inefficient because they have an old mentality. Problem is that the easy path to profit us more about cutting costs and jobs than innovating.

Once again I draw your attention to banks and the big 2 supermarkets. Huge profits for shareholders and shit pay for workers. And cutting jobs to boot.

The BCA are always whinging about something and saying if you do this or that, then it creates jobs. I call Bullshit because all they do is push existing workers harder and pocket the difference. And as soon as things go pear shape, it's the workers who get the chop.

As Joffa says, give it all back.