Rank the 10 greatest Eagles players of all-time

[Ian Dargie]

I never said he played well against Brereton in 91, threw him around like a ragdoll.

Huh? So why mention it in the first place?

You said he went on to these great players and shut them down while still a teenager. But it turns out he actually got "thrown around like a ragdoll".

I don't see how that is an argument for him being better than Glass.

Being more decorated doesn't make you a better player. Playing for longer doesn't make you a better player.

I agree. I'm just making the point that Glass hasn't merely been "consistent" or played longer. He's been elite. For longer than McIntosh was. That's what makes him the better player.

And your main argument for McIntosh over Glass - that he spent his career playing on and nullifying Ablett, Dunstall and Lockett - is not really accurate. He barely played on Ablett and Dunstall and was likely beaten when he did and probably took Lockett about four times, only after Brennan retired. Do you accept that?

 

[amazingjoshy]

I dumbed down the Brownlow and AFLMVP because it's an award for midfielders. So Cox is never gonna win one, neither is say Jakovich, McKenna. But the AA team recognises every position on the field. That was my thought process.

Fair point...I still think given they are the highest individual awards a player can receive they should have a higher rating (particularly the Brownlow, regardless of personal opinions of how its awarded, its a massive achievement and a career highlight to win one).

Ultimately it wouldnt change the order of your list anyway. Seeing Glassy so high makes me wanna dig up that old thread from his first few years where he was basically written off as a complete hack...

 

[Masto]

And your main argument for McIntosh over Glass - that he played on and nullified Ablett, Dunstall and Lockett - is not really accurate. He barely played on Ablett and Dunstall and was likely beaten when he did and probably took Lockett about four times, only after Brennan retired. Do you accept that?

He played on better players, i'm not sure how many times I can say it but its true. He also played against Modra numerous times who in his prime was a 100+ goals a year FF. He wasn't beaten by those players any more than Glass has been beaten by Pavlich, Hall etc. You make out like Glass has never had big bags kicked on him, he has numerous times. All defenders have.

 

[Ian Dargie]

He played on better players, i'm not sure how many times I can say it but its true.

It's not true.

I have demonstrated to you that he barely played on Ablett and Dunstall.

McIntosh only became our first-choice FB in 1996. Ablett and Dunstall both had good games against us in 1996 but that was Ablett's last year and Dunstall's last good year.

So when do you think he was playing on these guys? While Brennan was still our first-choice FB or after?

Admittedly, he would have played on Lockett from 1996-99, probably four games in total.

You make out like Glass has never had big bags kicked on him

Just to be clear, I haven't said anything like that. Why have you invented this?

I am disputing your statement that McIntosh regularly played on and beat Ablett, Dunstall and Lockett. Because it is not accurate.

I note that you are now pivoting to talking about Modra. Perhaps that is because you realise I am right about Dunstall, Ablett and Lockett.

 

[Masto]

Well your entitled to your opinion, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Ian Dargie]

Well your entitled to your opinion, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I'm not expressing my opinion. I am presenting you with facts.

When do you think McIntosh was playing on and beating Ablett, Lockett and Dunstall? While Brennan was still our first-choice FB or after?

You argued for McIntosh over Glass because McIntosh supposedly played on these guys and beat them. What years are you referring to?

 

[Ian Dargie]

So going by that formula, the following. I did the following 15 players who have been mentioned the most in our top 10 lists.

1. Cousins - 119
2. Glass - 84
3. Jakovich - 81
4. McKenna - 75
5. Matera - 73
6. Cox - 71
7. Judd - 59
8. Worsfold - 53
9. Kemp - 40
=10. McIntosh - 37
=10. Lewis - 37
12. Mainwaring - 33
13. Kerr - 21
14. Wirrpanda - 19
15. Embley - 13

So having done that exercise I think it goes pretty well. Glass too high

Or maybe it suggests that your assessment of Glass as outside the top 10 is misguided.

I certainly couldn't justify leaving out a guy who has won three B&Fs and four AA nods.

Looks like your little formula agrees with me.

 

[Masto]

I'm not expressing my opinion. I am presenting you with facts.

When do you think McIntosh was playing on and beating Ablett, Lockett and Dunstall? While Brennan was still our first-choice FB or after?

You argued for McIntosh over Glass because McIntosh supposedly played on these guys and beat them. What years are you referring to?

Judging a player is very subjective. If you don't know that then you are dumber than I thought. Mackenzie is taking the #1 defender now. You are hung up on the fact that Brennan played until 95 and seem unable to get over that hump. McIntosh was a better defender than him long before then and played on all those players at one point or another, before 96 and after 96. You pretend you are a know-it all... when quite clearly you Sir are a fraud.

 

[Ian Dargie]

Judging a player is very subjective. If you don't know that then you are dumber than I thought.

Don't move the goalposts.

You claimed McIntosh regularly played on and beat the likes of Ablett, Dunstall and Lockett. That is not a subjective statement. Nor is it accurate.

Here is a list of every game McIntosh played. When do you believe he played on and beat these guys? Granted, he took Lockett from 1996-99, for a total of four games. But before that? How about Ablett and Dunstall?

You are hung up on the fact that Brennan played until 95 and seem unable to get over that hump. McIntosh was a better defender than him long before then and played on all those players at one point or another, before 96 and after 96.

McIntosh played on Ablett before and after 1996? Sure about that?

Look, Brennan was our first-choice FB until the end of 1995. Agreed?

Before that, McIntosh spent plenty of time forward. I mean, in 1995, McIntosh only played 10 games and kicked 12 goals, so it's fair to say he wasn't lining up on superstar full-forwards every week. In 1994 and 1993 he finished the season with 20-plus goals. Impressive hauls for a FB. Maybe in 1992? When, in the GF, he was named in a FP and surprise, surprise, Brennan at FB.

So, we're back to the inescapable truth that it wasn't until 1996 that McIntosh became our first-choice FB.

That was Ablett's last year and Dunstall's last good year. Still, they both had good games against us in 1996, so not a win for McIntosh.

So, once again, if you think McIntosh spent a substantial chunk of his career playing on these guys and beating them, what years are you talking about? Brennan was taking them before 1996 and whoever took them in 1996 got beaten. Ablett retired that year and Dunstall was only around sporadically thereafter.

Which part of this do you disagree with?

You pretend you are a know-it all... when quite clearly you Sir are a fraud.

Why resort to name-calling? How exactly am I a fraud? Pretty hollow stuff from you, I'm afraid.

All I've done is ask you for details to support your argument. And you've come up short.

I don't pretend to know everything. But the facts here are plain and they undermine what you're saying.

 

[no1bankteller]

From memory McIntosh played predominantly as a forward (inconsistent one at that) until at least 1995 - although he did play on Brownless in the 1994 GF and was beaten on the day. Probably the only player in our froward half that was beaten on the day.

 

[Ian Dargie]

From memory McIntosh played predominantly as a forward (inconsistent one at that) until at least 1995 - although he did play on Brownless in the 1994 GF and was beaten on the day. Probably the only player in our froward half that was beaten on the day.

Well, Billy Brownless isn't far off Ablett, Dunstall and Lockett.

I mean, Glass has rarely played on forwards of that calibre.

 

[WCErevival]

The game has changed though. You dont get one big forward left one out in the 50 anymore kicking bags of 100. Even still Glass has played on guys like Hall, Richardson, Lloyd, Fevola, Pavlich etc who under the old style would of dominated like the old players.

 

[Ian Dargie]

The game has changed though. You dont get one big forward left one out in the 50 anymore kicking bags of 100. Even still Glass has played on guys like Hall, Richardson, Lloyd, Fevola, Pavlich etc who under the old style would of dominated like the old players.

Is this for me or someone else?

 

[no1bankteller]

I am struggling to sleep so may as well have a go at this.

1) Glen Jakovich

There are other worthy contenders such as Matera, Cousins and Cox. What got Jako over the line for me is that he was always my favorite Eagle and he lined up and regularly beat (both mentally and physically) some of the best CHF of that era including Kernahan, Neitz and Schwarz and arguably the most dominant CHF ever in Carey, .

2) Peter Matera

Dynamic, long kicking big game player. Used to love watching him live. Multiple AA's, almost a Brownlow and re-invented the role of a winger in a modern game not only for his goal kicking but also with his tackling pressure.

3) Ben Cousins

Defined by his consistency and professionalism. Would have rated him higher if not for his addiction and the impact this had on the club.

4) Chris Judd

Probably the most talented and professional player ever to play for WCE. If he had played more games at WCE he too would have finished higher. I also marked him down for leaving the club when we needed strong leaders. My perception of Judd (perhaps unfair) is that he was a poor leader and when going got tough he simply left.

5) Dean Cox

The best ruckman of our generation. Simply outstanding for a long period of time and together with Simon Madden a case could be made that he is the best of all time.

6) Darren Glass

Outstanding fullback, multiple AAand B&F's and close to our best ever captain. Calling him out as close to our best ever captain is controversial, it is very much line ball with Worsfold, however given the turmoil following Cousins and Judd departure and the state of the team at the time I believe that his leadership has been outstanding.

7) Dean Kemp

Under the radar kind of a guy but always effective, courageous and one of the most reliable players under pressure. Great skills, composure and ultimate team player.

8) Guy McKenna

Outstanding flanker that provided the silk to our backline. Most of our attacks came of his rebound and carry. Talented, composed and skillful I loved watching him in full flight.

9) Daniel Kerr

I am kind of shocked that he ranks as 9th on my list. It kind of illustrates how many talented players we have produced. Could have had him as high as 7 and perhaps by the end of his career he may end up as high as that. My primary reason for not having him as high is that during the period post Cousins and Judd he was often undisciplined and did not stand up as a club leader.

10) Ashley McIntosh

Started off as an inconsistent forward and through hard work and dedication turned himself into a premier defender of his era. Probably one of three best FB of the era with Slivagni and Fletcher being the others.

 

[WCErevival]

Is this for me or someone else?

Yeah was in relation the Glass not playing on high calibre forward thing.

 

[Ian Dargie]

Yeah was in relation the Glass not playing on high calibre forward thing.

Sarcasm on my part. There should be a special font.

Brownless is, of course, a mile ahead of Ablett, Dunstall and Lockett. And Glass, of course, has beaten far better players than Brownless.

 

[Masto]

Don't move the goalposts.

You claimed McIntosh regularly played on and beat the likes of Ablett, Dunstall and Lockett. That is not a subjective statement. Nor is it accurate.

Here is a list of every game McIntosh played. When do you believe he played on and beat these guys? Granted, he took Lockett from 1996-99, for a total of four games. But before that? How about Ablett and Dunstall?

McIntosh played on Ablett before and after 1996? Sure about that?

Look, Brennan was our first-choice FB until the end of 1995. Agreed?

Before that, McIntosh spent plenty of time forward. I mean, in 1995, McIntosh only played 10 games and kicked 12 goals, so it's fair to say he wasn't lining up on superstar full-forwards every week. In 1994 and 1993 he finished the season with 20-plus goals. Impressive hauls for a FB. Maybe in 1992? When, in the GF, he was named in a FP and surprise, surprise, Brennan at FB.

So, we're back to the inescapable truth that it wasn't until 1996 that McIntosh became our first-choice FB.

That was Ablett's last year and Dunstall's last good year. Still, they both had good games against us in 1996, so not a win for McIntosh.

So, once again, if you think McIntosh spent a substantial chunk of his career playing on these guys and beating them, what years are you talking about? Brennan was taking them before 1996 and whoever took them in 1996 got beaten. Ablett retired that year and Dunstall was only around sporadically thereafter.

Which part of this do you disagree with?

Why resort to name-calling? How exactly am I a fraud? Pretty hollow stuff from you, I'm afraid.

All I've done is ask you for details to support your argument. And you've come up short.

I don't pretend to know everything. But the facts here are plain and they undermine what you're saying.

You completely ignored my post about Mackenzie playing on the #1 forward because you have no answer. Just because a player is named at FB does not mean he plays on the best player. The emperor has no clothes, I seriously doubt you even watched McIntosh play.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Alright, I think this needs to be a vote.

Top 10s posted from this point on will be tallied so that we can come up with a broad consensus.

I'm not going to go back through the thread. If you've already posted your top 10, just quote it below and it will be counted.

I'll give everyone two weeks and then tally up the votes.

Go!

 

[jod23]

Probably didn't have as much pure talent as Chris Lewis either.

If talent, rather than performance, is what counts, the list looks pretty different.

Games record-holder and four-time B&F winner. Hardly a flash in the pan.

Like I said, our best ever KPP, the best CHB of the modern era and the most dominant defender I've seen.

And yes, a lot of things would have been different had Cousins not gone of the rails. Cousins would probably have ended up a unanimous No.1 had he finished the job instead being sacked at 29. But we don't inhabit that parallel universe.

Talent rather than performance. So Matera and Cousins were just talented but didnt perform often enough? What im saying is that Cousins and Matera were better for longer, in Cousins case more so than both Jako and Matera, Cousins was amongst the very best in his entire career for WC. Matera moved to half back late in his career and was still very good.

Jako though, depite being a 4 time B&F winner sadly didnt sustain his absolute best for long enough. The knee reco's hurt him. Hurt his mobility. He was VERY good early in his career, after the injury problems he was good, but not great. He was twice an AA before the knees, never after. He did always manage to get the best of Carey and there is no doubting he is our best KPP of all time. But in his later years, he became very slow and very frustrating. His last couple of years he probably played on too long.

I love Jako and top 5 for mine. But he doesnt quite reach Matera or Cousins.

Well, suffice to say that I think that's a mile wide of the mark.

McKenna in the top 5? So which one of Cox, Cousins, Judd, Jakovich or Matera do you have him above?

Easy. Judd. I have Judd 6-10 somewhere. He simply didnt play enough games for us, wasnt loyal or much of a leader.

And I am actually slightly baffled by you inexplicably under-rating Glass.

Glass has won three B&Fs and been an elite FB for 7-8 years. He has also continued that form into his 30s. McKenna was no longer at that level at the same stage of his career.

And even at his best, how many times in his career do you reckon McKenna had to take the other side's best forward? Compare that to Glass giving Barry Hall a hiding in the 2006 grand final. He could easily have won the Norm Smith for that. Hall was the AA CHF that year and Glass smashed him in a match we won by a solitary point. Had Hall broken even that day, we wouldn't have won the flag. Did McKenna ever do anything like that? A thumping victory over an elite key forward when it mattered most?

McKenna's best days simply weren't as consequential because he wasn't needed for those big defensive jobs. Glass, on the other hand, had to take these top key forwards one on one, because we didn't really flood or put extra players in defence, and regularly beat them. McKenna had the luxury of being part of a star-studded defence - Jakovich, Worsfold, Brennan and then McIntosh - whereas Glass held our back six together. Hell, the defence was built around him. McKenna never had to play on Ablett or Carey or Dunstall or any of those guys. Glass, by comparison, got those big jobs every week and now deserves to be rated as one of the best two FBs of the past decade, only a touch behind Matty Scarlett.

If you can make a real argument for McKenna over Glass - beyond 'McKenna is better' - I'd be fascinated to hear it.

Glass has won 3 B&F's, McKenna won 2, not poles apart are they. McKenna also won them 10 years apart. Sure Glass has been an elite FB for 7-8 years but McKenna was also an elite defender for his entire career.

Why use there positions as a negative for McKenna because he didnt take the opposition's best forward? McKenna was a half back flanker. It's like saying Cousins wasnt as good as Glass because he didnt take the best defender every week. McKenna and Glass play in different positions. So your entire argument just means nothing.

McKenna's reading of the play is the best ive ever seen. He just knew where to be, where the ball was going, which side of the forward to be on, push up, drop back. He was a master. Only player since ive seen come close to his reading of the play was Wirrpanda. He had elite skills on both sides of his body, always hit targets, always beat his opponent and was a KEY player in two Premierships. Not to mention he has finished top 4 in the B&F count 8 times. 8 times!

I love Glass and think he deserves his top 10 spot. Terrific defender, im also with you on the Glass over McIntosh argument. Glass is our best ever FB. But he is still behind Jakovich and McKenna as our best ever defenders.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Better have a go myself I guess.

1. Jakovich
2. Matera
3. Kemp
4. Cousins
5. Judd
6. Cox
7. McKenna
8. Glass
9. McIntosh
10. Worsfold

Feel bad for leaving out Lewis, Heady, Mainwaring, Sumich, Brennan, Pyke, Kerr and Munro, but 18 just won't go into 10.

 

[jod23]

Judd has those as well. And a Norm Smith.

I have Cousins ahead of Judd because Judd only played 134 games for us.

But if you want to add up awards, it's not a great argument for Cousins over Judd.

Im aware Judd has those two, if you read my post properly, you will see I was replying to someone saying Judd had all those awards, then I said, so does Cousins, with more AA's, B&F's and games under his belt at WC. But we have no quarrel here because we both have Cousins in front of Judd which IMO is a no brainer.

 

[jod23]

It is what it is. He wasn't and no amount of arguing otherwise will change history.

He wasnt officially no, but everybody knows he was. So yeah, it is what it is.

 

[jod23]

Better have a go myself I guess.

1. Jakovich
2. Matera
3. Kemp
4. Cousins
5. Judd
6. Cox
7. McKenna
8. Glass
9. McIntosh
10. Worsfold

Feel bad for leaving out Lewis, Heady, Mainwaring, Sumich, Brennan, Pyke, Kerr and Munro, but 18 just won't go into 10.

 

[jod23]

Or maybe it suggests that your assessment of Glass as outside the top 10 is misguided.

I certainly couldn't justify leaving out a guy who has won three B&Fs and four AA nods.

Looks like your little formula agrees with me.

I never had Glass outside of my top 10? You can go back and check if you like. I agree a bloke with 200+ games, three B&F's and 4 AA's is top 10 worthy. My list of top 10 is always changing. I did one a few pages back which was in no real particular order, I just slapped it together. Definitive list...today im going with.

1. Ben Cousins
2. Peter Matera
3. Glen Jakovich
4. Dean Cox
5. Guy McKenna
6. Dean Kemp
7. Darren Glass
8. Chris Judd
9. Chris Lewis
10. John Worsfold

Unlucky.. Chris Mainwaring, Daniel Kerr, David Wirrpanda, Ashley McIntosh, Peter Sumich, Brett Heady, Phillip Matera.

The list may yet change. Kerr after his couple of years in the injury wilderness has come back strong. Two more big years from him can see him push up the list. Cox has the number 1 spot in his sights. May take some doing though considering the three ahead of him. Glass too is only moving upwards. Another premiership with Kerr, Glass and Cox in the side will bolster all three hugely. Could push others up too like Andrew Embley.

Current players to keep an eye on. NN obviously, Jack Darling too.

 

[JackJako27]

For purposes of 5's poll:

1) G.Jakovich.
2) P.Matera.
3) B.Cousins.
4) D.Cox.
5) J.Worsfold.
6) C.Judd.
7) C.Mainwaring.
8) D.Kerr.
9) D.Glass.
10)D. Kemp.