Ranking the "big six" managers

Bojan KantKick

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Agreed, and i made note of that. Outstanding achievements.


Failed to win something indicates that there was an expectation that we would win something. I'm not sure there ever was or even should be. We're 5th on the list of most major trophies in England, we have the 6th highest revenue and wage budget, i actually thing we're just about 20th for net spend (TM Mo) in the time he's been here. There never was an expectation that we would win, so how has he failed?

5th, then 3rd, then 2nd, and currently 5th, a LC final and an FA Cup semi final is better than par for where we are as a club and our history and/or resources compared to the rest of the top 6. Honestly, by rights it should be a top 5, a gap, then Spurs, then a gap to the rest. Pochettino has overachieved because these things cant be looked at in a vacuum. Everything has to be looked at in relative terms.

In the time he's been there, with the exception of one, the domestic trophies have all been won by either Chelsea, City, United or Arsenal, with Leicester the obvious exception. Liverpool with all their resources and storied history havent won a trophy in the same time, and it's not like it's been lower clubs beating us to them either.
Not trying to be condescending but when are you expecting to be in a position to win trophies (if you don't think you are now) ?

I don't think you will be in a better position to win trophies for some time if you don't chase them now.
 

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Not trying to be condescending but when are you expecting to be in a position to win trophies (if you don't think you are now) ?

I don't think you will be in a better position to win trophies for some time if you don't chase them now.
The last two years in particular when the Manchester clubs were transitioning was the time to strike, we didn't and we have to wait again
 

Bojan KantKick

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The last two years in particular when the Manchester clubs were transitioning was the time to strike, we didn't and we have to wait again
You guys have brought in Sanchez but Alderweireld, Lloris and Vertonghen aren't getting any younger. I really rate Dembele who looks to be injury crocked a fair bit and getting on in years. I like Winks but he is a very different player to Dembele.
I am of the belief that one of Kane/Alli will be sold (albeit for an outrageous sum) over the next few summer windows.

Given the managers reluctance in the window, I struggle to see a situation where you guys improve from here without a mini rebuild.
 

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Art Vandelay_

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You guys have brought in Sanchez but Alderweireld, Lloris and Vertonghen aren't getting any younger. I really rate Dembele who looks to be injury crocked a fair bit and getting on in years. I like Winks but he is a very different player to Dembele.
I am of the belief that one of Kane/Alli will be sold (albeit for an outrageous sum) over the next few summer windows.

Given the managers reluctance in the window, I struggle to see a situation where you guys improve from here without a mini rebuild.
Alli. Learning spanish, being courted by Raiola. Connect the dots and it points to a change of clubs at some point.
Still very bullish on HK staying. They'll reject all offers and he won't openly pine to leave so they won't be forced to sell.
 

kangaspurs

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Not trying to be condescending but when are you expecting to be in a position to win trophies (if you don't think you are now) ?

I don't think you will be in a better position to win trophies for some time if you don't chase them now.
I think that the general expectation is that the new stadium and the increased revenue through the increased attendance and sponsorship deals will at least give us an opportunity to close the financial gap that exists between us and the rest of the top 6. Despite often being accused of being a scrooge, as of last season our wage to revenue ratio was actually in a very similar range to the rest of the top 6 (apart from one of either Chelsea or City who, from memory, paid something like 10% more of their revenue in wages than the rest). The expectation is that the increased revenue from next year, which should be significant as we'e doubling our capacity from WHL with better facilities for things like specialty tickets and what not - you know, the 'experience' that costs thousands of pounds a ticket - and crucially a major stadium sponsor which we didnt have before, should allow us to significantly restructure our wage budget to both keep our best and attract better players. There's also an indication that Levy has realised that the transfer market has fundamentally changed and he's accepted that and willing to back the manager. Spending 40m on Davinson Sanchez caused many a jaw to drop among Spurs fans when you consider Levy's reputation and history.

From there it's all about scouting, convincing our targets we're the best option and then signing them and genuinely competing with the you guys, City, Chelea etc on a number of fronts where we're not competing with two hand tied behind our back. In regards to convincing the best that we're the best option, there has already been massive inroads the last few years in this area. The investment in our trainign facility was enormous to teh point where ive even read from neutral sources that it's considered one of the best in Europe, and even now we're still in the process of improving that with the Player's Lodge that's being built. It's just that we didnt have the prestige and money of a United, Arsenal or Liverpool, or the money of a City or Chelsea to fully get the best players over the line. With an increase in wages and ability to spend on transfers we should at least be closer to being in the discussion from next year.
 

Bojan KantKick

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I think that the general expectation is that the new stadium and the increased revenue through the increased attendance and sponsorship deals will at least give us an opportunity to close the financial gap that exists between us and the rest of the top 6. Despite often being accused of being a scrooge, as of last season our wage to revenue ratio was actually in a very similar range to the rest of the top 6 (apart from one of either Chelsea or City who, from memory, paid something like 10% more of their revenue in wages than the rest). The expectation is that the increased revenue from next year, which should be significant as we'e doubling our capacity from WHL with better facilities for things like specialty tickets and what not - you know, the 'experience' that costs thousands of pounds a ticket - and crucially a major stadium sponsor which we didnt have before, should allow us to significantly restructure our wage budget to both keep our best and attract better players. There's also an indication that Levy has realised that the transfer market has fundamentally changed and he's accepted that and willing to back the manager. Spending 40m on Davinson Sanchez caused many a jaw to drop among Spurs fans when you consider Levy's reputation and history.

From there it's all about scouting, convincing our targets we're the best option and then signing them and genuinely competing with the you guys, City, Chelea etc on a number of fronts where we're not competing with two hand tied behind our back. In regards to convincing the best that we're the best option, there has already been massive inroads the last few years in this area. The investment in our trainign facility was enormous to teh point where ive even read from neutral sources that it's considered one of the best in Europe, and even now we're still in the process of improving that with the Player's Lodge that's being built. It's just that we didnt have the prestige and money of a United, Arsenal or Liverpool, or the money of a City or Chelsea to fully get the best players over the line. With an increase in wages and ability to spend on transfers we should at least be closer to being in the discussion from next year.
I think the wages aspect is most important re: attracting the best players. I'd argue though that your best transfers have been the lesser known or bargain players as opposed to 'stars'. Don't forget though that matchday revenue isn't a big income source for most clubs and that commercial is more important
 

kangaspurs

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Although it must be said that Pochettino definitely isnt faultless. I mean, look this ******* abomination of a comment. Sure, he might just be saying it to keep Sissoko happy and back his player publicly, but still.

 

kangaspurs

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I think the wages aspect is most important re: attracting the best players. I'd argue though that your best transfers have been the lesser known or bargain players as opposed to 'stars'. Don't forget though that matchday revenue isn't a big income source for most clubs and that commercial is more important
We'e still going from just over 30,000 every home game to 60,000+ with improved and greater corporate packages and whatnot. It might not be the biggest difference maker, but it's certainly goign to have an effect in it's own right. But yeah, I know a lot of people are unhappy that it's not going to retain the 'White Hart Lane' name, either just that or 'New White Hart Lane,' but there's no room for sentiment in modern football unfortunately. The stadium sponsor is going to be huge for us commercially and as part of our revenue. Already strong rumours that it's HSBC, with some AIA exec moving there recently who has good business ties with Levy.

Yeah agreed on the wages bit. If Kane, Dele and Alderweireld sign new contracts in the next six months then it's more than just an expectation or an indication that the stadium and everything associated with it will increase the wages we can offer. It's proof. it really can't be understated how crucial the next 6-8 months is in the history of Tottenham Hotspur. No CL would put a small dampener on it, but there's still so much else that needs to happen commercially, contractually with players, transfer wise etc.

Haha this is genuine fantasy land stuff, but with all the rumours surrounding Bale and Modric at Madrid I would love for Levy to go put our entire transfer budget on the table for those two, offer them competitive wages and get them back to the club. It would never happen, but the lift that would give everyone in the squad, club and the fans as we head into the stadium would be enormous, not to mention that it would perfectly fix our two biggest squad deficiencies.
 

Art Vandelay_

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Although it must be said that Pochettino definitely isnt faultless. I mean, look this ******* abomination of a comment. Sure, he might just be saying it to keep Sissoko happy and back his player publicly, but still.

The best way to describe Sissoko on the ball is that’s he’s like a rugby box kick. You’ll advance 40 yards down field but it will be a turnover.
 

Bojan KantKick

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We'e still going from just over 30,000 every home game to 60,000+ with improved and greater corporate packages and whatnot. It might not be the biggest difference maker, but it's certainly goign to have an effect in it's own right. But yeah, I know a lot of people are unhappy that it's not going to retain the 'White Hart Lane' name, either just that or 'New White Hart Lane,' but there's no room for sentiment in modern football unfortunately. The stadium sponsor is going to be huge for us commercially and as part of our revenue. Already strong rumours that it's HSBC, with some AIA exec moving there recently who has good business ties with Levy.

Yeah agreed on the wages bit. If Kane, Dele and Alderweireld sign new contracts in the next six months then it's more than just an expectation or an indication that the stadium and everything associated with it will increase the wages we can offer. It's proof. it really can't be understated how crucial the next 6-8 months is in the history of Tottenham Hotspur. No CL would put a small dampener on it, but there's still so much else that needs to happen commercially, contractually with players, transfer wise etc.

Haha this is genuine fantasy land stuff, but with all the rumours surrounding Bale and Modric at Madrid I would love for Levy to go put our entire transfer budget on the table for those two, offer them competitive wages and get them back to the club. It would never happen, but the lift that would give everyone in the squad, club and the fans as we head into the stadium would be enormous, not to mention that it would perfectly fix our two biggest squad deficiencies.
Thankfully, United continue to knock back naming rights offers for Old Trafford. The last one was for £30m a season IIRC. We have no reason to move stadiums though and I think we would sell out if we had to build a new ground.

A few of my colleagues were discussing an Alli for Bale +60m kinda deal yesterday. No CL could be telling regarding Alli, less so for Kane and Alderweireld imo.
 

kangaspurs

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Thankfully, United continue to knock back naming rights offers for Old Trafford. The last one was for £30m a season IIRC. We have no reason to move stadiums though and I think we would sell out if we had to build a new ground.

A few of my colleagues were discussing an Alli for Bale +60m kinda deal yesterday. No CL could be telling regarding Alli, less so for Kane and Alderweireld imo.
Yeah, there's a lot of integrity in making that decision, but it's not as if United are skint and desperately need the money either. We kind of need to make the most of the commercial opportunity that the stadium provides if we're to make a go of closing that financial gap.

Dele is a hard one to read. This talk of him linking up with Raiola is concerning tbh, but he's still only 21 and nowhere near the complete player. Yeah, he'll leave eventually unless we become some mega club, which is unlikely, but I think there's a chance that it could at least be 2 or 3 years before he does so.

Man, if we were offered some sort of deal that involved Bale and Dele swapping clubs, I honestly dont know which way I would lean. That would be a tough decision.
 

Bojan KantKick

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Yeah, there's a lot of integrity in making that decision, but it's not as if United are skint and desperately need the money either. We kind of need to make the most of the commercial opportunity that the stadium provides if we're to make a go of closing that financial gap.

Dele is a hard one to read. This talk of him linking up with Raiola is concerning tbh, but he's still only 21 and nowhere near the complete player. Yeah, he'll leave eventually unless we become some mega club, which is unlikely, but I think there's a chance that it could at least be 2 or 3 years before he does so.

Man, if we were offered some sort of deal that involved Bale and Dele swapping clubs, I honestly dont know which way I would lean. That would be a tough decision.
We don't need the money but we also have commercial deals with noodle companies, tinder, tyre companies and farming vehicle manufacturers....

I think you should be worried about Alli coming to United if he signs with Raiola...not trolling on that btw.
 

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Art Vandelay_

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You guys have brought in Sanchez but Alderweireld, Lloris and Vertonghen aren't getting any younger. I really rate Dembele who looks to be injury crocked a fair bit and getting on in years. I like Winks but he is a very different player to Dembele.
I am of the belief that one of Kane/Alli will be sold (albeit for an outrageous sum) over the next few summer windows.

Given the managers reluctance in the window, I struggle to see a situation where you guys improve from here without a mini rebuild.
Speak of the devil. Happy wife, happy life as they say.
Doubt a man with baby no.2 is leaving anytime soon.

Good luck to the man trying to get a pregnant missus to move country :p
 

go you pups

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You guys have brought in Sanchez but Alderweireld, Lloris and Vertonghen aren't getting any younger. I really rate Dembele who looks to be injury crocked a fair bit and getting on in years. I like Winks but he is a very different player to Dembele.
I am of the belief that one of Kane/Alli will be sold (albeit for an outrageous sum) over the next few summer windows.

Given the managers reluctance in the window, I struggle to see a situation where you guys improve from here without a mini rebuild.
Pochettino regularly spends in defence or midfield first

If someone needs replacing he will go for someone

Alderweireld is only 28 or 29, he'll be fine for a few more years if we can hold onto him, Lloris just turned 31, plenty of years left in him as a goalkeeper, Vertonghen is going on strong too at 30.

Dembele is the one I worry about medium term due to his durability issues, not the other guys. Come back and ask that question after the 2019-2020 season imo.

We aren't the type of team who will blow 70-90 mil on one player, we scout and identity decent players at excellent going rates, the issue I find with our squad is we lack two players on the bench who can change a game, a deep lying playmaker and a speedy attacker who can help with a parked bus.
 

RossFC

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Merson on Klopp being 5th best "Take away his front three and Virgil van Dijk and I don't know how many of those other players would get in another top-six-side."

Shouldn't that mean Klopp has done well if his squad is shite and gets no funds (-50mil in 2 1/2 years) from owners but is still 2 points off 2nd spot?
 

Art Vandelay_

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Merson on Klopp being 5th best "Take away his front three and Virgil van Dijk and I don't know how many of those other players would get in another top-six-side."

Shouldn't that mean Klopp has done well if his squad is shite and gets no funds (-50mil in 2 1/2 years) from owners but is still 2 points off 2nd spot?
Pretty much made a similar view on page 3 about this being hard to judge a managers coaching ability. The playing field isn’t even so it’s not black and white to objectively rate them.
It's partly why I'm not sure how to answer or rate this.
I have no doubt that if Klopp or Poch had the budget that Pep and Mourinho have in the market then they'd win trophies.

Klopp is a couple of players short defensively of winning a title and we're a couple of players in attack short.
Would Pep win the league with their budgets, particularly ours?

How much does coaching ability factor in as I'd the reason we have largely overachieved for where our budget and spending suggests we should is more to do with coaching than anything else, something previously shown at Southampton. We have a great coach that's a little short of what he needs to win.

Of all the things we get mocked for this is the most hilarious and pathetic.
We finished ahead of the clubs that fans mock us for. So if all we did was put pressure on what does that say about the rest lol?
 

RossFC

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Pretty much made a similar view on page 3 about this being hard to judge a managers coaching ability. The playing field isn’t even so it’s not black and white to objectively rate them.
Looks to me like he's ranking the squads instead of the managers coaching ability. Different topic all together.
 

Magma

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Merson on Klopp being 5th best "Take away his front three and Virgil van Dijk and I don't know how many of those other players would get in another top-six-side."

Shouldn't that mean Klopp has done well if his squad is shite and gets no funds (-50mil in 2 1/2 years) from owners but is still 2 points off 2nd spot?
if you take all the good players out of a side they would not be as good.

that sort is always an insanely bad argument
 

kangaspurs

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Merson on Klopp being 5th best "Take away his front three and Virgil van Dijk and I don't know how many of those other players would get in another top-six-side."

Shouldn't that mean Klopp has done well if his squad is shite and gets no funds (-50mil in 2 1/2 years) from owners but is still 2 points off 2nd spot?
Remember, it's Merson.
 

CFC_JP

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Why do you rate pep so high?
Klopp and Pep teams play the most entertaining football. Pep has unlimited funds so he drops to 2nd whilst Klopp is numero uno.

Wenger deserves 3rd spot because during his pre senility years arsenal were outstanding. Also his teams during that period played beautiful football, a joy to watch.

Conte has been successful in Italy and England but this season its as if he's possessed by some demon. Why would any manager of a top 6 club want to buy Andy Caroll. I think if big 'oohndy' became a Chelsea player I would've put conte last.

Poch tries to copy Klopp and Pep but falls a little short. Needs to win something before he can be considered elite.

Which now brings me to mou. Manager of arguably the biggest club in the world, buys attacking players like they are going out of fashion and yet shits himself when he's playing the rest of the top 6. He won 2 trophies last season and yet most mancunians of the red variety want him gone. He killed myki's career and tried to kill hazard's as well.
 

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