Ranking the "big six" managers

[Bojan KantKick]

But then what about what has been achieved previously?

Successful longevity

 

[go you pups]

But then what about what has been achieved previously?

Too long ago I'm afraid for Arsene, he hasn't successfully challenged in 13-14 years, for me it's too long, perhaps 11 and a half going back to the CL final, every other manager I've listed has won something more significant since then except Poch who is rightfully below him. I feel Arsene doesn't quite hit the successful longevity criterion, he has had an extremely lenient board backing him.

Top 4 and his FA Cups are all he has lately and I feel Klopp has bettered that, albeit elsewhere at Dortmund, yet Klopp has just about matched him lately in England (4th + EL final vs Top 4 + FA Cups).

 

[Cruyff14]

Too long ago I'm afraid for Arsene, he hasn't successfully challenged in 13-14 years, for me it's too long, perhaps 11 and a half going back to the CL final, every other manager I've listed has won something more significant since then except Poch who is rightfully below him.

Top 4 and his FA Cups are all he has lately and I feel Klopp has bettered that, albeit elsewhere at Dortmund, yet Klopp has just about matched him lately in England (4th + EL final vs Top 4 + FA Cups).

We challenged around 09 I think, and when Leicester won it.

 

[go you pups]

We challenged around 09 I think, and when Leicester won it.

For half a season maybe, perhaps you dropped off in February/March

It wasn't a right to the death type of battle like SAF copped against Chelsea and Ancelotti in 2010 or City and Mancini in 2012.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

We challenged around 09 I think, and when Leicester won it.

Spurs challenged in the Leicester season. You blokes pipped them to 2nd after the title race was already over.

In 09 you scraped 4th

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Interestingly, in 09, Villa, Everton under the Moyesiah and Fulham, got Europa qualification

 

[Cruyff14]

Moving the goalposts hey

Nah fair enough. 07-08 we finished third only 4 pts behind, we had the collapse at Brum and it went downhill from there (I think)

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Moving the goalposts hey

Nah fair enough. 07-08 we finished third only 4 pts behind, we had the collapse at Brum and it went downhill from there (I think)

are you quoting me or pups?

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Spurs challenged in the Leicester season. You blokes pipped them to 2nd after the title race was already over.

In 09 you scraped 4th

What season? I have absolutely no recollection of such events occurring, and if I can't recall it then it totally 100% did not happen
I see 2008 also is missing in all sporting records.
We must have skipped that year too.

#DeeplyRepressedMemories

 

[Bojan KantKick]

What season? I have absolutely no recollection of such events occurring, and if I can't recall it then it totally 100% did not happen
I see 2008 also is missing in all sporting records.
We must have skipped that year too.

#DeeplyRepressedMemories

Not all sporting records

 

[Cruyff14]

are you quoting me or pups?

I guess it applies to both of you. And in fairness, I did say around 09.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

I guess it applies to both of you. And in fairness, I did say around 09.

i didn't move any goalposts tho

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Interestingly, in 09, Villa, Everton under the Moyesiah and Fulham, got Europa qualification

Ha! How things change. One's been relegated and the other has Sam...

Re: Rumours of Allardyce's sacking if they lose to the Foxes. Seems a popular comment

 

[Art Vandelay_]

I guess it applies to both of you. And in fairness, I did say around 09.

Do you mean the 07/08 season where you fell off the perch when Eduardo got injured?

 

[Cruyff14]

Do you mean the 07/08 season where you fell off the perch when Eduardo got injured?

Yup. I thought there was another too, but after checking turns out I was wrong.

 

[go you pups]

What season? I have absolutely no recollection of such events occurring, and if I can't recall it then it totally 100% did not happen
I see 2008 also is missing in all sporting records.
We must have skipped that year too.

#DeeplyRepressedMemories

We won a trophy in 08, surprisingly

 

[Bojan KantKick]

So Arsenal haven't challenged in a decade then....

Play on pups

 

[go you pups]

Interestingly, in 09, Villa, Everton under the Moyesiah and Fulham, got Europa qualification

Yep, we improved once arry came in, but he needed a little longer to reel them in. If we got an extra 10 points from the first 8 games we'd have qualified easily IIRC.

 

[typeclub]

As typeclub has sad many times, being an austerity club its tough to attract the best.
That's why I think poch will go soon and conte deserves better, he is a better manager than pep and mou.
Rodgers wouldn't be bad to develop young talent.

Yes when you are going through a measure of Austerity its hard to keep your manager happy or attract the best. I think Pep has turned down Chelsea a few times. Posch has shown himself to be a class act, saying he'd rather work on a farm than manage Barca. I think he could be the next big thing

 

[moomba]

Chelsea have bought over £200m of new players this season.

So for Conte it's not going to be about money, it'll be about getting the players he wants as opposed to what someone else wants.

 

[chef]

Chelsea have bought over £200m of new players this season.

So for Conte it's not going to be about money, it'll be about getting the players he wants as opposed to what someone else wants.

Morata, Rudiger, Zappacosta and Drinkwater were all his signings. Who knows with Barkley and Bakayoko. He'll probably also get Dzeko and Emerson who are his signings(s**t he even wanted Carroll).

Hes weakened the squad through his own doing and is now sooking about it. He could have kept the guys he had, promoted some youf and signed 2 or 3 better players.

And really we spent £200m but we still had to make £160m through sales. I know net spend is a dirty word but hell thats what we do.

 

[kangaspurs]

Mou
Conte
Pep
Klopp
Wenger
Poch (will only move up the list once he wins a trophy, he is at Bielsa level currently)

It's an interesting point this one that needs a little more depth in its analysis imo. Trophies are important, but need to be consisered in conjunction with clubs managed and in regards to relative resources, expectations etc.

Pochettino is in his 9th full season of senior Mens management. In that time he has managed Espanyol for about 2 and a half seasons, Southampton for one and a half seasons and Spurs for three and a half seasons. A perennial struggler, a team only recently promoted, and a team just outside the elite with ambitions to break into the group. Apart from when he was sacked at Espanyol under severe finanical restrictions, he had significantly overachieved with them, leading them comfrotbaly to safety. Same goes for Southampton, while integrating youth. Meanwhile, with he's had us punching above our weight twice with a 3rd and 2nd place finish and about par the other two. None of these clubs are ecpected to win trophies, none are the best or even in the top 5 clubs with the most resources in their respective leagues.

In his first 9 seasons of management, Klopp started Mainz in the 2. Bundesliga and led them to promotion and then relegation over six and a half seasons. he was then given teh job at Dortmund and didnt win a trophy until his third season when he won the league. That was in his 10th season of management while he was at a club that was traditionally strong who had won 6 League titles in their history before he go there, albeit an average team when we went there and he took them back to being a powerhouse. However, I would argue that he didnt have the same competition with regards to the number of teams with vastly more resources.

Conte won his first major trophy (he had won Serie B) in his 6th season of senior management with Juventus. Obviously a club that is expected to do well and who had won the league 27 times before Conte arrived. By his 9th season he had won 2 more leagues and a couple of cups wit Juve and was then managing Italy.

Wenger won his first trophy in his 4th year, winning the league with Monaco in his first year there. I dont know what expectations they had at the time, but they had won the league 4 times before. He didnt join Arsenal until his 11th year of management where he won the league in his second year. He'd also won a couple of cups in the J-League. Arsenal were 10 time Champs at that point with massive expectations of winning the lague. They'd won it 6 years prior. I comparison, Spurs last won the league 56 years ago, a league cup 9 years ago and a major trophy 26 years ago.

Pep is the obvious outlier with his rapid progression to elite clubs because of his talent. He's always been at clubs that, due to history (Barca, Bayern) or resources (City) not only hope, but expect to win the league and trophies.

Mourinho joined Porto in his third season and obviously did incredible things there, particularly in the CL, where he mde his name. But again, he was at a club that expects to win. They had 18 league titles and a CL trophy already in the cabinet when he joined. He's won everywhere he's been, but once again, at clubs where he is expected to win due to history, tradition (Madrid, Inter, United), or ridiculous resources (Chelsea).


Haha this was probably a waste of time, but it explains reasonably well why I find the 'no trophies' accusation as a black mark against Pochettino's management to be be indicative of specious analysis, and often deliberately disingenuous (not from you pups, but in general when it's used as a pejorative).

tl;dr: He's never been at a club where he is expected to win trophies, however he has always punched above his weight and outperformed the actual expectations. His record at the start of his career is comparable to Klopp and only looks inferior compared to the othere because theyve always been at clubs that are expected to win.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

It's an interesting point this one that needs a little more depth in its analysis imo. Trophies are important, but need to be consisered in conjunction with clubs managed and in regards to relative resources, expectations etc.

Pochettino is in his 9th full season of senior Mens management. In that time he has managed Espanyol for about 2 and a half seasons, Southampton for one and a half seasons and Spurs for three and a half seasons. A perennial struggler, a team only recently promoted, and a team just outside the elite with ambitions to break into the group. Apart from when he was sacked at Espanyol under severe finanical restrictions, he had significantly overachieved with them, leading them comfrotbaly to safety. Same goes for Southampton, while integrating youth. Meanwhile, with he's had us punching above our weight twice with a 3rd and 2nd place finish and about par the other two. None of these clubs are ecpected to win trophies, none are the best or even in the top 5 clubs with the most resources in their respective leagues.

In his first 9 seasons of management, Klopp started Mainz in the 2. Bundesliga and led them to promotion and then relegation over six and a half seasons. he was then given teh job at Dortmund and didnt win a trophy until his third season when he won the league. That was in his 10th season of management while he was at a club that was traditionally strong who had won 6 League titles in their history before he go there, albeit an average team when we went there and he took them back to being a powerhouse. However, I would argue that he didnt have the same competition with regards to the number of teams with vastly more resources.

Conte won his first major trophy (he had won Serie B) in his 6th season of senior management with Juventus. Obviously a club that is expected to do well and who had won the league 27 times before Conte arrived. By his 9th season he had won 2 more leagues and a couple of cups wit Juve and was then managing Italy.

Wenger won his first trophy in his 4th year, winning the league with Monaco in his first year there. I dont know what expectations they had at the time, but they had won the league 4 times before. He didnt join Arsenal until his 11th year of management where he won the league in his second year. He'd also won a couple of cups in the J-League. Arsenal were 10 time Champs at that point with massive expectations of winning the lague. They'd won it 6 years prior. I comparison, Spurs last won the league 56 years ago, a league cup 9 years ago and a major trophy 26 years ago.

Pep is the obvious outlier with his rapid progression to elite clubs because of his talent. He's always been at clubs that, due to history (Barca, Bayern) or resources (City) not only hope, but expect to win the league and trophies.

Mourinho joined Porto in his third season and obviously did incredible things there, particularly in the CL, where he mde his name. But again, he was at a club that expects to win. They had 18 league titles and a CL trophy already in the cabinet when he joined. He's won everywhere he's been, but once again, at clubs where he is expected to win due to history, tradition (Madrid, Inter, United), or ridiculous resources (Chelsea).


Haha this was probably a waste of time, but it explains reasonably well why I find the 'no trophies' accusation as a black mark against Pochettino's management to be be indicative of specious analysis, and often deliberately disingenuous (not from you pups, but in general when it's used as a pejorative).

tl;dr: He's never been at a club where he is expected to win trophies, however he has always punched above his weight and outperformed the actual expectations. His record at the start of his career is comparable to Klopp and only looks inferior compared to the othere because theyve always been at clubs that are expected to win.

Neither Porto (won in 84) or Inter (won in 65) expected to win the Champions League tho....

By your metrics, SAF is the GOAT for what he did at Aberdeen which was unbelievable then and now.

 

[go you pups]

It's an interesting point this one that needs a little more depth in its analysis imo. Trophies are important, but need to be consisered in conjunction with clubs managed and in regards to relative resources, expectations etc.

Pochettino is in his 9th full season of senior Mens management. In that time he has managed Espanyol for about 2 and a half seasons, Southampton for one and a half seasons and Spurs for three and a half seasons. A perennial struggler, a team only recently promoted, and a team just outside the elite with ambitions to break into the group. Apart from when he was sacked at Espanyol under severe finanical restrictions, he had significantly overachieved with them, leading them comfrotbaly to safety. Same goes for Southampton, while integrating youth. Meanwhile, with he's had us punching above our weight twice with a 3rd and 2nd place finish and about par the other two. None of these clubs are ecpected to win trophies, none are the best or even in the top 5 clubs with the most resources in their respective leagues.

In his first 9 seasons of management, Klopp started Mainz in the 2. Bundesliga and led them to promotion and then relegation over six and a half seasons. he was then given teh job at Dortmund and didnt win a trophy until his third season when he won the league. That was in his 10th season of management while he was at a club that was traditionally strong who had won 6 League titles in their history before he go there, albeit an average team when we went there and he took them back to being a powerhouse. However, I would argue that he didnt have the same competition with regards to the number of teams with vastly more resources.

Conte won his first major trophy (he had won Serie B) in his 6th season of senior management with Juventus. Obviously a club that is expected to do well and who had won the league 27 times before Conte arrived. By his 9th season he had won 2 more leagues and a couple of cups wit Juve and was then managing Italy.

Wenger won his first trophy in his 4th year, winning the league with Monaco in his first year there. I dont know what expectations they had at the time, but they had won the league 4 times before. He didnt join Arsenal until his 11th year of management where he won the league in his second year. He'd also won a couple of cups in the J-League. Arsenal were 10 time Champs at that point with massive expectations of winning the lague. They'd won it 6 years prior. I comparison, Spurs last won the league 56 years ago, a league cup 9 years ago and a major trophy 26 years ago.

Pep is the obvious outlier with his rapid progression to elite clubs because of his talent. He's always been at clubs that, due to history (Barca, Bayern) or resources (City) not only hope, but expect to win the league and trophies.

Mourinho joined Porto in his third season and obviously did incredible things there, particularly in the CL, where he mde his name. But again, he was at a club that expects to win. They had 18 league titles and a CL trophy already in the cabinet when he joined. He's won everywhere he's been, but once again, at clubs where he is expected to win due to history, tradition (Madrid, Inter, United), or ridiculous resources (Chelsea).


Haha this was probably a waste of time, but it explains reasonably well why I find the 'no trophies' accusation as a black mark against Pochettino's management to be be indicative of specious analysis, and often deliberately disingenuous (not from you pups, but in general when it's used as a pejorative).

tl;dr: He's never been at a club where he is expected to win trophies, however he has always punched above his weight and outperformed the actual expectations. His record at the start of his career is comparable to Klopp and only looks inferior compared to the othere because theyve always been at clubs that are expected to win.

As I said before, he's just another Bielsa at the moment (minus the international management achievements Bielsa has achieved)

While it may be true he has managed clubs with lower expectations, everyone starts somewhere, impresses, gets a promotion to a big club and wins trophies at said bigger club, Poch impressed at Southampton and had his chance the last 3 seasons to win something at Tottenham and he has failed thus far (failed winning LC in 2015, failed winning the league in 2016 and failed winning the FA Cup last year).

Perhaps he may finally win something this year, but I have my doubts.

 

[kangaspurs]

Neither Porto (won in 84) or Inter (won in 65) expected to win the Champions League tho....

By your metrics, SAF is the GOAT for what he did at Aberdeen which was unbelievable then and now.

Agreed, and i made note of that. Outstanding achievements.

As I said before, he's just another Bielsa at the moment (minus the international management achievements Bielsa has achieved)

While it may be true he has managed clubs with lower expectations, everyone starts somewhere, impresses, gets a promotion to a big club and wins trophies at said bigger club, Poch impressed at Southampton and had his chance the last 3 seasons to win something at Tottenham and he has failed thus far (failed winning LC in 2015, failed winning the league in 2016 and failed winning the FA Cup last year).

Perhaps he may finally win something this year, but I have my doubts.

Failed to win something indicates that there was an expectation that we would win something. I'm not sure there ever was or even should be. We're 5th on the list of most major trophies in England, we have the 6th highest revenue and wage budget, i actually thing we're just about 20th for net spend (TM Mo) in the time he's been here. There never was an expectation that we would win, so how has he failed?

5th, then 3rd, then 2nd, and currently 5th, a LC final and an FA Cup semi final is better than par for where we are as a club and our history and/or resources compared to the rest of the top 6. Honestly, by rights it should be a top 5, a gap, then Spurs, then a gap to the rest. Pochettino has overachieved because these things cant be looked at in a vacuum. Everything has to be looked at in relative terms.

In the time he's been there, with the exception of one, the domestic trophies have all been won by either Chelsea, City, United or Arsenal, with Leicester the obvious exception. Liverpool with all their resources and storied history havent won a trophy in the same time, and it's not like it's been lower clubs beating us to them either.