Ranking VFL/AFL clubs - which has been the most successful?

Paul P Mark

Rookie
Apr 18, 2018
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108
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Easily a very biased OP. If finishing ‘second’ is defined as a variable, than finishing ‘second’ last needs also be considered for example.

I think if the OP is serious, than considerations in multi variant analysis models should be the first research area to improve.

I’m happy to be contacted ‘off list’ and point you in the direction of introduction material to help you provide meaning defendable analysis rather than weighting’s based on your own preferences.

Poor work that has taken a considerable amount of time and effort is still poor work.
Every second spot gets 20 points, every second last spot gets only 2 points. No need to contact you in a private manner, but I’d be interested to read a post with your own rankings and methodologies. There’s no universally ‘right’ way to do it unfortunately.
 

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Fadge

Premiership Player
Mar 4, 2007
4,634
3,257
Melbourne
AFL Club
Collingwood
Every second spot gets 20 points, every second last spot gets only 2 points. No need to contact you in a private manner, but I’d be interested to read a post with your own rankings and methodologies. There’s no universally ‘right’ way to do it unfortunately.
Furthermore, the net effect for Collingwood is probably negative given their Grand Final record...

Appreciate the work you have put into this and is certainly a great topic of discussion.

Really interested to see the analytic models from other posters, particularly those who are denigrating your method.
 

Hawkk

Hall of Famer
Sep 17, 2004
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Rubbish

Hawthorn won the 1961 and 1971 premierships while playing their home games at Glenferrie Oval

The Hawks played their home games at Princes Park from 1974-1991 (and Waverley from 1992-1999), but the club's day-to-day operations and social club were still based in Hawthorn and the players continued to train at Glenferrie Oval up until the move to Waverley in 2006.

It's staggering you wouldn't know this, but that you could probably recite the exact attendance figures for every game
Not sure what you have against my posts but nonetheless...

- of course we were still based at Glenferrie until 2006 but the main reason why we were looking to move games from Glenferrie by 1964/65 (if you believe the Hard Way) was due to restrictions with the railway and stadium (with the proximity a major reason why we got admission to the VFA and VFL in the first place)
- playing home games away from the social club meant that the club missed out on match day income and had to contribute to building the Hawthorn stand at Princes Park
- sure we had success in 1961 (and made the finals in 1957 and 1963) but we struggled big time until the 1968 metropolitan zone introduction (we fell back to 12th and ‘won’ our 11th wooden spoon in 1965)

To suggest otherwise is just not true. Footscray, North Melbourne and Richmond were power clubs in the VFA prior to gaining entry to the VFA. Hawthorn was not, our admission (like St Kilda and Carlton) was based more on off field support and infrastructure then demonstrated results on the field...

...and it’s ironic that Hawthorn really only became a wealthy club in the last 15-20 years (after 1996) despite 60 years of undisputed success
 
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footyfan78

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 27, 2014
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there are no other teams worthy
By using that logic, you are also saying that interstate clubs with fewer premierships, compared to Victorian clubs, is a fault of their own, because they couldn't break into the VFL/AFL earlier.
No , I am not.
The word fault not even in my post.
I was specifically talking about Hawthorn's record as a club that joined the league in 1925 from the same state the league is based in and was already a club that had been in existence here.
 

footyfan78

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I think talent or not good enough had anything to with. If so then St.Kilda and Carlton would not have been invited in 1897 ahead of Port Melbourne, North Melbourne, Williamstown or Footscray.
I think you will find the 1897 breakaway itself was also about clubs that were more inner city and well run and had a history against other clubs that was valued. Calton were very successful before the 1890's the other clubs knew their poor form at the very time to breakaway was not going to be counted against them. Saints were also an inner city club. Why North were not included is interesting as they were Hotham initially.

Hawthorn were not good enough to win a premiership as a club until 1961, that is clear. Hence why they do not get a free pass for their time in VFA and pretend they did not exist. The VFA was considered virtually the second best league in Victoria. When the league allowed 3 VFA clubs to join in 1925 they fact those clubs took decades to win premierships in the premier league of the state is good enough for me to not let them get a free pass for seasons they were not playing in the league but still played as a football club for decades before this. Dogs 1924 charity game win is interesting outlier though for that season before they entered the league.

In 1925, the 3 clubs that joined the league from the VFA were the 3 bottom teams on the ladder. Clear enough the clubs playing in VFA were not going to get a free pass for years served in VFA before that in my eyes.
 

Hawkk

Hall of Famer
Sep 17, 2004
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I think you will find the 1897 breakaway itself was also about clubs that were more inner city and well run and had a history against other clubs that was valued. Calton were very successful before the 1890's the other clubs knew their poor form at the very time to breakaway was not going to be counted against them. Saints were also an inner city club. Why North were not included is interesting as they were Hotham initially.

Hawthorn were not good enough to win a premiership as a club until 1961, that is clear. Hence why they do not get a free pass for their time in VFA and pretend they did not exist. The VFA was considered virtually the second best league in Victoria. When the league allowed 3 VFA clubs to join in 1925 they fact those clubs took decades to win premierships in the premier league of the state is good enough for me to not let them get a free pass for seasons they were not playing in the league but still played as a football club for decades before this. Dogs 1924 charity game win is interesting outlier though for that season before they entered the league.

In 1925, the 3 clubs that joined the league from the VFA were the 3 bottom teams on the ladder. Clear enough the clubs playing in VFA were not going to get a free pass for years served in VFA before that in my eyes.
Well in the case of Hawthorn that was not totally unexpected as they were the baby club in the VFA anyway (as I said they were only admitted to the VFA and the VFL in the first place because of their proximity to the eastern suburbs)

Essentially the GWS prototype but with no VFL support (until the 1968 metropolitan zone reallocation gave them a gold mine in the booming South / East suburbs)

With respect to North Melbourne and especially Footscray they were required to make some concessions (specifically around playing squads and metropolitan zones) which comprimised their capacity to compete through the 1920s and 1930s.

Footscray was the first of the 1925’ers to become competitive and I understand they qualified for the finals in 1931 (and were irregular finalists through until 1961).

Footscray was a power club through the 1950s and topped the club membership all through the mid 1950s

By contrast, North Melbourne (1945) and famously Hawthorn (1957) struggled to make the finals and dominated the wooden spoon count between 1925-1952

For Hawthorn I’m sure this was due to its premature entrance to the big time, for North Melbourne it was probably due to the concessions it had to make to Carlton and Essendon to gain entrance over Pahran.

If the VFL was about off field performance there is no way that Carlton and St Kilda (who came last and second last for the first 6 seasons) would have qualified over North Melbourne, Footscray and Port Melbourne
 

footyfan78

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 27, 2014
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there are no other teams worthy
Well in the case of Hawthorn that was not totally unexpected as they were the baby club in the VFA anyway (as I said they were only admitted to the VFA and the VFL in the first place because of their proximity to the eastern suburbs)
Being a younger club does not entitle them to a free pass for no premierships from 1902 to 1961. History is what it is. Every club has one.
1902 to 1961 is Hawks time to grow into a club to be good enough to win one. Their journey since has had much success. 13 flags in about 117 years is about fourth or fifth best strike rate. Nothing to sneeze at. You should be proud of how they grown as a club and embrace all their history. Pre-league years and all.
A flag once every 9 years on average is a good strike rate as a football club. Clubs like Fremantle and St.Kilda could only dream of matching this.
 

Hawkk

Hall of Famer
Sep 17, 2004
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Being a younger club does not entitle them to a free pass for no premierships from 1902 to 1961. History is what it is. Every club has one.
1902 to 1961 is Hawks time to grow into a club to be good enough to win one. Their journey since has had much success. 13 flags in about 117 years is about fourth or fifth best strike rate. Nothing to sneeze at. You should be proud of how they grown as a club and embrace all their history. Pre-league years and all.
A flag once every 9 years on average is a good strike rate as a football club. Clubs like Fremantle and St.Kilda could only dream of matching this.
True.

It’s easily 4th best if you go back to 1897 (5 years before the club was even formed)

It also bests some clubs who have ‘only’ won 16 flags in 155 years ;)

If only we had some EDFL premierships we could claim :(
 
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footyfan78

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 27, 2014
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there are no other teams worthy
True.

It’s easily 4th best if you go back to 1897 (5 years before the club was even formed)
Carlton, Essendon, Collingwood and West Coast Eagles have best strike rate of premierships.

West Coast 1987 to 2018 is 4 premierships in 32 years of existence is better strike rate than Hawks of 13 in 117 years of existence.
Eagles about 1 every 8 years. Hawks 1 in every 9 puts them in fifth place in my book.
 

Guju

Rookie
Mar 18, 2019
21
33
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Hawthorn
Carlton, Essendon, Collingwood and West Coast Eagles have best strike rate of premierships.

West Coast 1987 to 2018 is 4 premierships in 32 years of existence is better strike rate than Hawks of 13 in 117 years of existence.
Eagles about 1 every 8 years. Hawks 1 in every 9 puts them in fifth place in my book.
Yes, in your book. ;)
Anyway, I am not wasting anymore time on you. In my book, you are a bitter troll with too much time on your hands. :p
 
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AuntyBlindEye

All Australian
Jul 19, 2019
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Richmond
This is a good read. Think it's also a pretty fair representation of the clubs standings regarding success, but I do have one question.

How in god's name have St Kilda lasted so long when other, more successful clubs have folded?
 

footyfan78

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 27, 2014
19,722
20,227
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Carlton
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there are no other teams worthy
This is a good read. Think it's also a pretty fair representation of the clubs standings regarding success, but I do have one question.

How in god's name have St Kilda lasted so long when other, more successful clubs have folded?
One cent in a dollar or some bulls**t back in early 1980's.
Do not think Saints be around if it was not for Lindsay Fox just keeping their head above water.
Just a kid at the time but vague memories of them lucky they had a President that somehow kept them from going under.

Your club in 1990's tin rattled your way out of debt too.
Even put a few dollars in myself for Tigers and Fitzroy to keep around. Sadly one did not make it in the end.
 

footyfan78

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 27, 2014
19,722
20,227
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Carlton
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there are no other teams worthy
Can OP let us know when his Year 8 maths teacher has marked the assessment? Interested to know the mark.
Gets A for effort for sure.
C for Achievement.
Meant well but buggered up a few things like strike rate not done correctly.
Showed promise though and will improve his maths if keeps applying himself and learns from mistakes.
 

Juddernaut08

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 8, 2007
6,318
7,608
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Personally I think the exercise is a very well thought out and well written piece of analysis trying to capture a holistic analysis.

Personally for me, if a team has more premierships, its going to be hard for another team to say theyve been more successful despite all the other criteria.

Personally I think the other criteria can only be used as tiebreakers.

For mine (and this is just my opinion): It should to by number of Premierships and then by win/loss ratio over history (equivalent of wins and percentage in a normal ladder).

Perhaps this is a bit simplistic but its just my view.

Collingwood as much as I hate them shouldnt be marked down for making Grand Finals.
 

AuntyBlindEye

All Australian
Jul 19, 2019
704
1,412
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Richmond
Maybe giving the different categories point values might please some people?

  1. Premiership % 20 points
  2. Wooden Spoon % 1 point
  3. Minor Premiership % 5 points
  4. Average Finish Position. 4 points
  5. Overall Home Win % 3 points
  6. Overall Away Win % 3 points
  7. Made Finals % 2 points
  8. Finals Win % 3 points
  9. Made Grand Final % 4 points
  10. Grand Final Win % 15 points
I'm not sure on the exact point values for each stat, but less points for less significant stats might work.

I don't know, I was fairly happy with where all the teams landed.
 

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