Rant RE: VFL/AFL

[Simple Jack]

thats because you follow a club based in victoria.

No, that's because it's what happened. It's not debatable, it's fact. Port Adelaide left the competition they were in, and moved to the competition Essendon played in, how are you trying to argue against this?

For us it would probably better if you did just count flags from 1990, but the AFL wasn't formed in 1990, nor 1987 nor 82. The AFL wasn't formed at all. The VFL rebranded itself, much like Woolworths has done in Victoria. There is a Safeway about 400 meters from my house; a couple of years ago the sign on the front changed to 'Woolworths'. That doesn't mean it's a new store. The old one wasn't bulldozed, all the staff weren't sacked and the product line wasn't overhauled. It is the exact same building, with the same interior, staff and product line but with a new sign out the front. Just like the AFL.

 

[sherb]

thats because you follow a club based in victoria.

Seriously, are you being deliberately obtuse?

A competition records premierships won in that particular competition.

A club records premierships it has won across the various competitions it has competed in.

It really is that simple.

It's got nothing to do with who you support. It's how clubs and competitions operate Australia wide.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

The history of the VFL, SANFL, WAFL and other leagues should always be preserved, and they should be viewed as solid foundations for the great national competition we have today. Of course, supporters of Victorian teams such as Essendon and Carlton who delude themselves with chatter about sitting on "16 Premierships" are pretty pathetic. Premierships won in the early and mid-1900s really don't mean anything when compared to modern Premierships (i.e. those won after around 1990 as the OP suggests).

Premierships won in the early VFL days were played in a weaker comp (i.e. typically fewer than 10 teams), and there was also no draft system so larger clubs were able to benefit from drawing players from their huge 'zones'. Nowadays, there is a relatively level playing field between teams, which means that winning a Premiership in the modern era is incredibly tough.

As such, the only GF's which mean anything to me are those won after about 1990.

So the upshot here is that Adelaide supporters don’t recognise premierships won before their club was formed.

So what? Recognise what you like. GC and GWS children can and probably will say exactly the same thing about Adelaide FC’s premierships.

I can imagine your response however if they insisted you were “deluding” yourself and were “pathetic”. You’d probably give them the same response that you’re on the end of now.

 

[Mighty Chinook]

So the upshot here is that Adelaide supporters don’t recognise premierships won before their club was formed.

So what? Recognise what you like. GC and GWS children can and probably will say exactly the same thing about Adelaide FC’s premierships.

I can imagine your response however if they insisted you were “deluding” yourself and were “pathetic”. You’d probably give them the same response that you’re on the end of now.

No, because GC and GWS are joining the competition long after it became recognised as a 'professional' competition. In the 1980s, players were still getting paid a pretty small amount, and about 99% of players had to keep working on the side to supplement their pay. The draft was still a joke at this point.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

No, because GC and GWS are joining the competition long after it became recognised as a 'professional' competition. In the 1980s, players were still getting paid a pretty small amount, and about 99% of players had to keep working on the side to supplement their pay. The draft was still a joke at this point.

So when did it become a "professional" competition?

 

[Mighty Chinook]

So when did it become a "professional" competition?

There's no way to put a concrete date on this, but anywhere from late 80s to early 90s

 

[dblue8]

Serious question for SANFL fans, if Port did move back would the SANFL count their AFL flag in their SANFL tally?

Of course not. It's a different comp. Just like there should be a distinction between AFL flags and VFL flags. How hard can it be for the AFL to list each clubs flags in the different eras. It's a nonsense to compare a VFL flag in 1958 with a flag won post 80s with all the changes in the game.

 

[Simple Jack]

No, because GC and GWS are joining the competition long after it became recognised as a 'professional' competition. In the 1980s, players were still getting paid a pretty small amount, and about 99% of players had to keep working on the side to supplement their pay. The draft was still a joke at this point.

So what happens when in 50 years supporters of the new expansion franchises (perhaps international) are looking back saying 'In 2012 the off field spending disparity was a joke'?

Reset the counter and go again?

 

[Ron The Bear]

The number of premierships accredited to each club is such a piddly issue. Haven't seen a single North supporter complaining about Sydney/South Melbourne's 28-year start in compiling their five flags to North's four.

It's rather petty that because some clubs' supporters can't point to what their club did in Year X, they'd like for what other clubs did to be stricken from the record, or at least cheapened.

 

[SpeciousArgument]

Seriously, are you being deliberately obtuse?

A competition records premierships won in that particular competition.

A club records premierships it has won across the various competitions it has competed in.

It really is that simple.

It's got nothing to do with who you support. It's how clubs and competitions operate Australia wide.

you win, you're right.

victoria>the rest of the world and alienating the source of all the money coming into the AFL is the right option

Im sick of this, it bores me. if you didnt want it to be an australian competition you shouldnt have allowed clubs outside victoria to get involved.

 

[Rob]

This old chestnut rears its head again.

If you don't like the number of premierships accredited to your team as a measure of self worth, support a club who has more.

In the case of Freo, not sure what advice to offer there...

We just claim Fremantle's 8 WAFA flags in the 1800's.

 

[Mighty Chinook]

So what happens when in 50 years supporters of the new expansion franchises (perhaps international) are looking back saying 'In 2012 the off field spending disparity was a joke'?
Reset the counter and go again?

Do you really think 'off field spending disparity' has as much correlation to winning premierships as playing in a 9-10 team comp in the early-mid-1900s, when there was no draft and zoning made the game unfair for smaller clubs (Bulldogs, St Kilda, etc), and when a salary cap didn't even exist. When considering how much the salary cap alone evens the playing field today, off field spending is really quite irrelevant. Besides, as a supporter of a club which has one one flag in 140 years, I thought you might agree with some of my points!

 

[Simple Jack]

Of course not. It's a different comp.

Now you're getting there.

Just like there should be a distinction between AFL flags and VFL flags.

The VFL/AFL is one competition. This isn't open to interpretation, this is reality.

It's a nonsense to compare a VFL flag in 1958 with a flag won post 80s with all the changes in the game.

Absolutely. It's also nonsense to compare a late 90's flag to the 2012 flag considering how the draft was being used (just look at all the spud early picks) and poor salary cap enforcement

 

[Simple Jack]

Do you really think 'off field spending disparity' has as much correlation to winning premierships as playing in a 9-10 team comp in the early-mid-1900s, when there was no draft and zoning made the game unfair for smaller clubs (Bulldogs, St Kilda, etc), and when a salary cap didn't even exist. When considering how much the salary cap alone evens the playing field today, off field spending is really quite irrelevant.

Well when the salary cap is evening out the pay, off field spending is far more relevant than it used to be when you could just buy players. Either way, the whole argument is idiotic.

Besides, as a supporter of a club which has one one flag in 140 years, I thought you might agree with some of my points!

Luckily I can remove club bias when discussing issues pertaining to the game, especially in the face of almost unbelievable idiocy.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Of course not. It's a different comp. Just like there should be a distinction between AFL flags and VFL flags. How hard can it be for the AFL to list each clubs flags in the different eras. It's a nonsense to compare a VFL flag in 1958 with a flag won post 80s with all the changes in the game.

It’s similar “nonsense” to compare the flag won by Sydney on the weekend to a flag won in the 90s. Players weren’t professional, they went and got pissed during the week!

And the salary cap? LOL... in the words of a prominent club official at the time, it was “just a budgetary guideline”.

 

[sherb]

you win, you're right.

victoria>the rest of the world and alienating the source of all the money coming into the AFL is the right option

Im sick of this, it bores me. if you didnt want it to be an australian competition you shouldnt have allowed clubs outside victoria to get involved.

I get it, you are being deliberately obtuse.

The Victorian angle has nothing to do with it. It is pure logic.

I'll ask you a question. If an SAAFL club which has won 5 SAAFL flags were to be promoted to the SANFL, do you think that those SAAFL flags should count in the SANFL records?

 

[SpeciousArgument]

I get it, you are being deliberately obtuse.

The Victorian angle has nothing to do with it. It is pure logic.

I'll ask you a question. If an SAAFL club which has won 5 SAAFL flags were to be promoted to the SANFL, do you think that those SAAFL flags should count in the SANFL records?

1 club joins the comp? no. The comp doubles in size in 20 years, a new era has begun, records from prior to that become insignificant. I actually live in victoria btw and have for more than half of my life. Ive seen first hand the xenophobia exhibited by victorians.

 

[SpeciousArgument]

The point for me isnt 'is the afl/vfl as an administration the same entity as it was since its inception'

The point is it is now a national competition and claiming that pre 1980 football is relevant to the modern era is kind of well... stupid...

 

[sherb]

1 club joins the comp? no. The comp doubles in size in 20 years, a new era has begun, records from prior to that become insignificant. I actually live in victoria btw and have for more than half of my life. Ive seen first hand the xenophobia exhibited by victorians.

I'll repeat. One last time.

Competitions recognize achievements within that particular competition.

Clubs recognize their achievements across various competitions.

That is why all Port's flags count in Port's own history but only one of their flags (2004) counts in the AFL history.

But I'll leave it at that. You clearly don't get it.

And don't be fooled by the club I support. I have no affiliation to Victoria. I am a Tasmanian who lives in NSW. I've actually spent more time in the UK than I have Victoria. So your paranoia is wasted on me.

 

[Public Enemy No1]

Their should be a clear distinction between the 2 types of flags.
VFL flags don't get upgraded just because of Victorian egos.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

you win, you're right.

victoria>the rest of the world and alienating the source of all the money coming into the AFL is the right option

Im sick of this, it bores me. if you didnt want it to be an australian competition you shouldnt have allowed clubs outside victoria to get involved.

Seriously, come clean. You are surely using that username to troll .. right? Or you are out of your depth and still trying to fire an unloaded gun.

Answer the points put to you rather than throw your toys out of the pram.

 

[koutamarto]

well there goes 5 minutes I will never get back

 

[Crows4Eva]

It matters little, each person is going to recognize certain achievements however they wish, the AFL deciding to declare that the 'modern era' began in what ever year isn't going to stop people talking about a clubs achievements prior to that date or stop them from claiming that those achievements are just as relevant as they were when they occurred.

 

[Ron The Bear]

1 club joins the comp? no. The comp doubles in size in 20 years, a new era has begun, records from prior to that become insignificant. I actually live in victoria btw and have for more than half of my life. Ive seen first hand the xenophobia exhibited by victorians.

My experience is that where Victorians tend to be dismissive of other states, the others hate Victoria.

When Victoria took a chartered flight to WA to play a State of Origin match in 1981, they were forced to make an unscheduled stop in outback SA due to a faulty door. While wiring the door closed, the local handyman asked, "Who are these blokes, anyway?" The pilot replied, "They're a group of Victorian footballers travelling to Perth to play against Western Australia." Handyman (overheard by some of the Victorian contingent): "I hope they all bloody well fall out."

 

[sherb]

It matters little, each person is going to recognize certain achievements however they wish, the AFL deciding to declare that the 'modern era' began in what ever year isn't going to stop people talking about a clubs achievements prior to that date or stop them from claiming that those achievements are just as relevant as they were when they occurred.

I gave a possible answer earlier in the thread.

Let the AFL records be recognized by the AFL competition. From 1897. As they should be.

And set up a separate recording system for senior football records from state league level up, in a similar way to how cricket records are maintained.

I'm not saying it's a perfect answer, but at least it would give far greater recognition to state leagues than currently exists.