Ratten gone?

[bourbons]

People have begun to focus on the drafting of the Western Bulldogs from 2006 to 2010.

Ratten has been stitched up to a great degree by the Carlton recruiters during the same time.

2010 draft

Pick 18 Matthew Watson

instead of

pick 19 - Isaac Smith
pick 23 - Cam Guthrie
pick 24 - Jamie Cripps
pick 25 - Patrick Karnezis
Pick 26 - Jack Darling
Pick 27 - Kieran Harper

other Carlton picks,some of whom have been injury affected - McCarthy, Mitchell, McInnes,duigan

2009 draft

Pick 12 - Kane Lucas

In fairness, probably not much worse than a lot behind him

other Carlton picks - Davies and Kerr

2008 draft

pick 6 - Chris Yarran

instead of

7. Rich
8. Vickery
9. Ziebell
10. Davis
11. Sidebottom
18. Shuey

other Carlton picks - Robinson, o'Keeffe and Tiller

2007 draft

pick 1 Kreuzer

instead of

2 Cotchin
( and a lot of the rest in fairness were so so)

other carlton picks -Browne and Armfield

2006 draft

number 1 - Gibbs

instead of
no 5 Boak
no 7 Selwood
no 8 Reid

Other carlton picks included Hampson, Grigg, Austin, Benjamin and Anderson

I'm not sure Ratten can coach but it would help if a side drafts some good players.

Pretty underwhelming stuff

2010 - yep should have taken Darling, but he went at 27 for a reason. Seems to have sorted out any behavioural issues so good on him and the Eagles. No one else on that list setting the world on fire.

2009 - you say probably not much worse than a lot behind him, but this was our worst drafting year for mine. Talia, Jetta, Menzel, Tapscott, Fyfe and Bastinac all still available after pick 12.

2008 - As of right now, would probably still take Yarran. Maybe Ziebell or Sidebottom.

2007 - Not hitting the panic button on Kreuzer just yet. Victim of his own hype to a degree - this year he played like you would expect a 22 yo ruckman coming back from a knee reco to play. Cotchin is a bone fide gun, but Kreuzer may still be that as well.

2006 - Yep Selwood obviously, but not a single recruiter in the land would have taken him ahead of Gibbs. Not convinced that Boak and Reid are better players.

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

Yarran's a jet and matchwinner.

And the greatest front runner in the game.

 

[Kram]

Yarran was a massive frontrunner back at Swan Districts.

 

[Freomaniac]

Should be sacked for letting Ross Lyon into the finals.

Now your just taking it Personal!

Next thing your going to say Freo Sacked Mark Harvey last season after Losing both derbies last season.

Im Probably alone in this view. It would be a bit stupid to Sack Ratten now after what hes done for Carlton in the last 3-4 years. considering Carlton were at their worst Period in History when he took over as coach, He did rebuild the club well. I think he got a year left in his contract on $500,000 a year.

 

[royals1922]

Look I'm not trying to troll but Carlton have said Ratten's the cause - blame him and while that may be true, to some extent, it cannot be the entirety of the answer.

I'll put it bluntly -the drafting has been rubbish - for a long time - of the 2000 to 2007 Carlton ND draftees ( not traded players nor rookie draft player) these are the only Carlton players to play 75 games or more - wiggins, Waite, Simpson, Walker, Jordan russell, Karl Norman, gibbs, Kreuzer and Murphy.

They've traded for top up player after top up player - 25 traded players into the club between 2000 to 2010. they've traded away pick 14, pick 23, pick 16, pick 3, pick 20 ( and Josh Kennedy), 24, 27, and pick 11 from 2000 to 2010.

They overtly tanked and not just once.

What has stopped Carlton from mediocrity has been their rookie draft -all players developed at the VFL level to some degree- from 2000 to 2010 including these 100 gamers Thornton, Bentick, Carazzo, O'Hailpin, Jamison, Joseph, Jacobs, Garlett and Ellard. Also preseason picks such as Stevens and Betts (amongst some more recent poorer selections) have helped.

And Carlton people wonder why they have been poor.

 

[watts4ever]

i don't think enough people are giving credit to gold coast.

 

[Dory_77]

i don't think enough people are giving credit to gold coast.

True that, they stood up and played well.

 

[Morris Major]

I'll put it bluntly -the drafting has been rubbish - for a long time - of the 2000 to 2007 Carlton ND draftees ( not traded players nor rookie draft player) these are the only Carlton players to play 75 games or more - wiggins, Waite, Simpson, Walker, Jordan russell, Karl Norman, gibbs, Kreuzer and Murphy.

They've traded for top up player after top up player - 25 traded players into the club between 2000 to 2010. they've traded away pick 14, pick 23, pick 16, pick 3, pick 20 ( and Josh Kennedy), 24, 27, and pick 11 from 2000 to 2010.

Salary cap breach
Chris Judd

And for you to even suggest not picking Gibbs at #1 a complete lack of understand on your behalf.

 

[royals1922]

Salary cap breach
Chris Judd

I know that (and they also gave pick 20 away for judd) but then you get to the thorny question of whether the judd trade was a win for WCE or Carlton. Now it's beginning to look like a loss for carlton and as the rorting of the salary (use the right phrase) the punishment was, if anything, light.

 

[Morris Major]

I know that (and they also gave pick 20 away for judd) but then you get to the thorny question of whether the judd trade was a win for WCE or Carlton. Now it's beginning to look like a loss for carlton and as the rorting of the salary (use the right phrase) the punishment was, if anything, light.

It was a win win.

Have you even looked properly at the Carlton draftees between 04 and 07? What were the alternatives?

 

[royals1922]

And for you to even suggest not picking Gibbs at #1 a complete lack of understand on your behalf.

So is Gibbs not worth number 1, not been developed properly or propelled too quickly into the leadership group or not very good at all.....

 

[Dory_77]

It was a win win.

Have you even looked properly at the Carlton draftees between 04 and 07? What were the alternatives?*

* Without using hindsight.

 

[Morris Major]

So is Gibbs not worth number 1, not been developed properly or propelled too quickly into the leadership group or not very good at all.....

In 2006, Gibbs was without a doubt the #1. The rest has nothing to do with recruiting.

* Without using hindsight.

That'll be difficult for royals1922

 

[Dory_77]

That'll be difficult for royals1922

It'd be difficult for anyone. Besides, all teams have recruiting blunders (not saying Gibbs etc are 'blunders') from time to time, but the top sides build their success on the back of good development and structures rather than raw talent.

 

[royals1922]

It was a win win.

Have you even looked properly at the Carlton draftees between 04 and 07? What were the alternatives?

We'll agree to disagree. There's more than one way to skin a cat. They could have kept Kennedy and sent pick 3 for later picks and kept pick 20 ( and picked up Selwood, pears, whitecross) or even traded that for another player and a later pick -instead they invested it all into one player who has not taken them to a flag.

 

[Kramer1]

I'll put it bluntly -the drafting has been rubbish - for a long time - of the 2000 to 2007 Carlton ND draftees ( not traded players nor rookie draft player) these are the only Carlton players to play 75 games or more - wiggins, Waite, Simpson, Walker, Jordan russell, Karl Norman, gibbs, Kreuzer and Murphy.

They've traded for top up player after top up player - 25 traded players into the club between 2000 to 2010. they've traded away pick 14, pick 23, pick 16, pick 3, pick 20 ( and Josh Kennedy), 24, 27, and pick 11 from 2000 to 2010.

Ridiculous assessment. To consider the Pagan era alongside recent years shows you have a pretty poor grasp of things - Pagan is on record stating along the lines that had no option but to bring in has been and never was players on account of inheriting a very ordinary list, draft penalties and perilously low football dept spending.

Recruiting from 2005 or 6 onwards has been on par with most clubs...some hits, some misses and everything in between.

 

[royals1922]

In 2006, Gibbs was without a doubt the #1. The rest has nothing to do with recruiting.

You've not answered my question - assume he was the putative number 1 for the moment - how come Selwood has flown out the blocks while Gibbs has not advanced at all.

 

[Morris Major]

We'll agree to disagree. There's more than one way to skin a cat. They could have kept Kennedy and sent pick 3 for later picks and kept pick 20 ( and picked up Selwood, pears, whitecross) or even traded that for another player and a later pick -instead they invested it all into one player who has not taken them to a flag.

Or they could have used those later picks and picked up dud players, instead of getting Chris Judd in his prime.

Or Josh Kennedy may not turn out so be the star that he is at Carlton.

AT THE TIME, it was a good trade, some of the media/fans even said Carlton underpaid for Judd. It's not about agreeing to disagree, you're using hindsight and thinking up specific scenarios to criticise Carlton's trading/drafting.

You've not answered my question - assume he was the putative number 1 for the moment - how come Selwood has flown out the blocks while Gibbs has not advanced at all.

If you can't answer that question yourself, I give up.

 

[royals1922]

Ridiculous assessment. To consider the Pagan era alongside recent years shows you have a pretty poor grasp of things - Pagan is on record stating along the lines that had no option but to bring in has been and never was players on account of inheriting a very ordinary list, draft penalties and perilously low football dept spending.

Recruiting from 2005 or 6 onwards has been on par with most clubs...some hits, some misses and everything in between.

That's what Pagan may have said- and I don't doubt he said that but that does't make it right.

Harford in for 9 games for pick 51 in 2003, Sam fisher was available at 55, Bn Hudson at 58, rischitelli at 61, shane tuck at 73,Raines at 76.
Morell, teague, Clarke, , McGrath, you mst be joking. the only decent pick up was Scotland.

French for pick 16 - ditto.

It was on the cards that Carlton were going to stink for a few years but instead of developing they went for quick fix.....

 

[royals1922]

If you can't answer that question yourself, I give up.

I have a view but merely wanted you to explain your view why gibbs has not excelled.

 

[Morris Major]

I have a view but merely wanted you to explain your view why gibbs has not excelled.

I don't know, probably poor development at Carlton.

That doesn't change the fact that in 2006 he was considered a better 17/18 year old over Selwood, it doesn't automatically mean he will be a better AFL player. Why is Lachlan Hansen not a better player than Joel Selwood? He was drafted at #3

 

[Badesumofu]

You've not answered my question - assume he was the putative number 1 for the moment - how come Selwood has flown out the blocks while Gibbs has not advanced at all.

I don't see how your question is relevant to the discussion of Carlton's recruiting. There was no debate over Gibbs being number one pick at the time. It was just widely accepted that he was the number one pick. Similar with Kruezer - there's a reason that match was called the Kruezer cup.

Watson was a questionable section. I can say that without hindsight. Hawthorn made the very next selection, and at the time a number of Hawthorn supporters were hopping we'd get Watson because of the perceived need for a gorilla defender. There were also a number of astute posters at the time suggesting that we were not looking at him at all, and questioning the value of a player of his attributes in the modern game.

 

[royals1922]

Or they could have used those later picks and picked up dud players, instead of getting Chris Judd in his prime.

Or Josh Kennedy may not turn out so be the star that he is at Carlton.

Quite so but you bringing Judd into a side that was not that great was clearly not going to fix the problem.

As for Kennedy, but here's atip, when the eagles want a player of yours, they see something you may not have seen as they very rarely trade for a player.

 

[royals1922]

I don't see how your question is relevant to the discussion of Carlton's recruiting. There was no debate over Gibbs being number one pick at the time. It was just widely accepted that he was the number one pick. Similar with Kruezer - there's a reason that match was called the Kruezer cup.

Watson was a questionable section. I can say that without hindsight. Hawthorn made the very next selection, and at the time a number of Hawthorn supporters were hopping we'd get Watson because of the perceived need for a gorilla defender. There were also a number of astute posters at the time suggesting that we were not looking at him at all, and questioning the value of a player of his attributes in the modern game.

My contention has been in this debate that the problem is not solely Ratten but also the recruiting. Or put another way, how much could malthouse have squeezed from the list that ratten had.

The problem with carlton had it's genesis more than 5 years ago and poor recruiting since has exacerbated it.

 

[Morris Major]

Quite so but you bringing Judd into a side that was not that great was clearly not going to fix the problem.

As for Kennedy, but here's atip, when the eagles want a player of yours, they see something you may not have seen as they very rarely trade for a player.

If bringing Judd in doesn't fix anything, what's the point of bringing a bunch of 18 year old draftees in? What if JJ Kennedy was the second coming at full forward but Carlton just can't develop him properly?