Review Rd 1 - Collingwood vs Hawthorn - Postmatch Discussion

[lenny20]

And just to follow on from the above, that's why I'm excited about our prospects when we get a few players back. The hawks were obviously several players short last night as well, but who would you take out of their side to fit them all in? On last night's performance, you could probably replace Bateman with Hodge, Boumann with Roughead, and McCauley with Bailey. But even that last change isn't going to provide a vast improvement - McCauley rucked well, and Bailey isn't exactly elite in ruck standards. After that, if you want to start incorporating the other injured Hawk talent, you have to replace a player who's performing well in the side already. Puopolo could come in for Bruest, but Bruest is a good player. Shiels will come back in, but it might cost Savage or Smith their spot, both of whom played good footy last night and finished with a couple of goals each. Gilham might return after his horror run with injuries, but who goes out of the backline? Gibson, Stratton and Roughead would have to stay. Maybe Schoenmakers? But I'm told he's best 22 stuff over on the hawks forums so I don't know.

My point is, Hawthorn's depth is damn impressive. Best in the league. Kinda like what we had going late in 2010 when Presti, Medhurst, Lockyer, O'Bree, Goldsack, Fraser and co couldn't crack into the seniors. HOWEVER in terms of actual best 22 players fielded in a game, I feel like we've got a considerably greater amount of improvement left in our side, since the kids who we will be replacing - Yagmoor, Rounds, Sinclair, Keeffe, Seedsman, Paine, and so forth - aren't really giving us a whole lot right now. That's not their fault, they will improve, but right now that's just the way it is.

Long story short, feeling positive about the season, and feel like our top 27 or so is still very strong. It just drops away significantly after that, which is why we'll struggle against good teams when ten of our top 27 are injured.

 

[Nicco_jj]

Pretty close I'd say. From last night's team I'd say the definite changes would be:

Rounds out for Beams
Seedsman out for Wellingham
Paine out for Didak
Keeffe out for Tarrant
Yagmoor out for Maxwell
Sinclair out for Johnson

And then we move on to the slightly more controversial changes:

Clarke/Goldsack out for Brown
Fasolo out for MaCaffer/Krakouer
Wood in as second ruck, but not sure who for.

With those last ones, I'd say there's definitely a spot in the best 22 for MaCaffer and Krakouer (we need some small/medium talent up front), there's probably a spot for Brown (though he is behind Reid and Tarrant as KPD stocks go, so it would depend on matchups), and there might be a spot for Wood depending on whether we play a dedicated 2nd ruckman. The big question becomes who to take out of the team in their place.

Hope that helps!

Disagree with bolded.
Thought Goldsack was good.
Clarke was OK... But his tackling wasn't great IMO

 

[lenny20]

I agree, I'd keep Goldsack in too, personally. Though it is a popular opinion amongst Collingwood folk that he is borderline 22. Who would you drop for Brown? Or would you leave Brown out?

 

[Nicco_jj]

I agree, I'd keep Goldsack in too, personally. Though it is a popular opinion amongst Collingwood folk that he is borderline 22. Who would you drop for Brown? Or would you leave Brown out?

I'm a big Nate Brown fan. But at the end of the day, this bloke was borderline 22 in 2010, came in only because presti stepped down, and played his role bloody well.
He will need to play very very well in VFL to be given an opportunity this year.

I personally believe he has too much skill to be playing a shut down full back role. I would like to see him tried in forward line or as a re bounding back man.
His speed is underrated.

 

[jerry springer]

Some random thoughts

1. Short term pain for long-term gain. Giving these Kids big -game experience will pay huge dividends later on if/when they need to be recalled. To play against against a very clinical team like hawthorn in front of 80k+ would be worth 10- 15 VFL games

2. Paine didn't get a lot of it but he looks classy. need to give him 5-10 games this year

3. when Fasolo gets a mid-fielders fitness after another couple of preseasons he will be a star.A fantastic draft pick

4.Harry needs to lift big-time

5. If we are 2-2 after 4 games that will be a good result.3-1 will be a outstanding start with all the players we are due back which will make competition for spots a lot healthier

6. I thought keefe was sound. Was on Buddy early ,and maybe should of stayed on him.......

 

[Scodog10]

And then we move on to the slightly more controversial changes:

Clarke/Goldsack out for Brown
Fasolo out for MaCaffer/Krakouer
Wood in as second ruck, but not sure who for.

If last nights form holds true until Brown is right to go I'd lean towards Brown taking O'Brien's spot rather than Goldsack. Then depending on the matchup we alternate Goldsack and Johnson between defense and a half back/ wing role. Again that does depend on how the next month pans out.

 

[mattys123]

Doc Larkins is on 7 now, and just said that Goldsacks shoulder injury might keep him out for a week or two anyway.

And just a note, Lance Franklin injured Goldy with a sling tackle, Buddy might be in trouble in past cases are anything to go by, he'd probably get a reprimand because Goldsack's shoulder hit the ground, and not his head.

 

[rustyg70]

Doc Larkins is on 7 now, and just said that Goldsacks shoulder injury might keep him out for a week or two anyway.

And just a note, Lance Franklin injured Goldy with a sling tackle, Buddy might be in trouble in past cases are anything to go by, he'd probably get a reprimand because Goldsack's shoulder hit the ground, and not his head.

Buddy should be fine.
There was nothing in the tackle really,it was just the way Goldy landed on his shoulder that caused the injury.
But who knows how the tribunal are going to veiw it if he does get reported.

 

[magpiewarrior]

Just a few thoughts to share from last night.
1) Times have changed, it's great to still see such positivity on this board. Several years ago it would have been mainly doom and gloom after last nights' game. It's a sign of genuine belief in our players.
2) Surely Harry could never play that badly again? He looked like he had never seen the game before (much less played it at the highest level).
3) Keefe stayed out of the contest several times last night and on each occasion our defender was out marked, when a 3rd man up would have made the difference. Didn't this happen near the end of a quarter (or the game itself) in the NAB cup and Trav and/or Shawry gave him an extended lesson on why he had to contest instead of pulling out leaving his team-mate to do it all? This may be a concern!

I know that in spite of my first point, this post may seem to some as negative in itself, I can assure you that's not the intent.
After tonight I am even more confident that we are going to give the flag a real shake, not just this years but for at least the next several.

 

[SuperSub17]

If last nights form holds true until Brown is right to go I'd lean towards Brown taking O'Brien's spot rather than Goldsack. Then depending on the matchup we alternate Goldsack and Johnson between defense and a half back/ wing role. Again that does depend on how the next month pans out.

Agree with this. Harry was not good and Goldsack provided some good run from defence.

Does anyone know how far away Brown is from playing?

 

[Chief Ten Beers]

Harry has been on a slippery slope for a while now. Maybe it's a confidence thing but he just doesn't look very fast anymore, he's always getting caught which makes him hesitate for the rest of the game and fumble around.

 

[magpiewarrior]

Harry has been on a slippery slope for a while now. Maybe it's a confidence thing but he just doesn't look very fast anymore, he's always getting caught which makes him hesitate for the rest of the game and fumble around.

He doesn't look fast anymore because he looks like he hasn't got a clue where to go, where to start or where his opponents are or will go.
Like I said in my previous post he looked like he had never even seen the game before last night. Given that we have seen before that he is an excellent reader of the play, this is surely puzzling.

 

[HAWKS HEROES]

i thought it was a great game between two great teams you guys were still in it up to the last few , you got some great players in your team and i am sure we will meet in the finals best of luck for the year , i am sure you will beat the tigers easily cheers till we next meet

 

[lenny20]

Harry has been on a slippery slope for a while now. Maybe it's a confidence thing but he just doesn't look very fast anymore, he's always getting caught which makes him hesitate for the rest of the game and fumble around.

I think it's time for Harry to get back to basics and start by playing the sort of dogged, relentless defensive game that saw him give Scott Lucas nightmares back in the early days. Anything that comes after that is a bonus, but just set him a task of taking a player out of the game.

In his defence he did start to do a bit more of this in the second half, he was pretty tight on Cyril after half time. Would have been nice to have that sort of tagging in Q2 though (although I have a feeling that the Cyril brilliance began when he was playing on Shaw, not Harry).

 

[Blessed]

I think it's time for Harry to get back to basics and start by playing the sort of dogged, relentless defensive game that saw him give Scott Lucas nightmares back in the early days. Anything that comes after that is a bonus, but just set him a task of taking a player out of the game.

In his defence he did start to do a bit more of this in the second half, he was pretty tight on Cyril after half time. Would have been nice to have that sort of tagging in Q2 though (although I have a feeling that the Cyril brilliance began when he was playing on Shaw, not Harry).

Post of the Year.

 

[Miles da Phantom]

Sorry but no one would have stopped Franklin last night. I thought Reid won the battle in the air convincingly but thats why Buddy is so special. The ball goes to ground and he is still too agile for many tall defenders.

You put someone strong and tall on him, he gets his goals from ground level. You put someone like Goldsack on him, and he is too good in the air. Not much Reid could have done last night and still thought he was one of our better players on the night.

Reid needs to learn to play the ball instead of worrying about what Franklin is going to do. Would of been a better outcome for him if he did that, i.e, would not have got turned inside out as much.

 

[TradeDraft]

Reid needs to learn to play the ball instead of worrying about what Franklin is going to do. Would of been a better outcome for him if he did that, i.e, would not have got turned inside out as much.

Doubt that would of made much Difference. Reid did a Fantastic job on Buddy in the 1st Half

 

[Miles da Phantom]

If we were able to get Brown back playing to his best in the backline later this year, I think Tarrant could be a x factor for us playing as a high forward. Wouldn't it be great to see him back up forward with Trav & Dawes creating havoc.

 

[Miles da Phantom]

Doubt that would of made much Difference. Reid did a Fantastic job on Buddy in the 1st Half

Why run under the ball so much when he is a great reader of the ball? I guess Franklin does that to you! If he played his natural game, I still think it would have been a better outcome for him. Confidence in his ability, he is a gun back there.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

I thought in 2008 that Reid would be our Buddy smotherer but he is not. He wore on his face and in his body language the pain and despair of every struggle with Buddy, and in several contests his expressions indicated he was crushed and frustrated. As suggested, playing the ball rather than Buddy may have helped, but realistically Reid is suited to a different role, leaving Tarrant or even Keefe as future opponents. Assistance from other defenders was largely absent with so many talls missing and Keefe reluctant to leave his opponent.

Reid has lowered his colours in his last 2 games and will appreciate not being the main event when Tarrant returns. He looked down on confidence and form against Buddy's magic display. Hopefully he does not have to stand Riewoldt this week - Vickery would be the perfect match up.

 

[blaze036]

I dont think u get ur colors lowered when the best forward ever kicks 5 on u... in a very high scoring game with little help from teammates

 

[PieNSauce]

Our kicking out under pressure is definitely an issue. This has never been a problem before.

OK, I know you can look at that game and pick up on any number of little things like that but I'm fairly sure that the Collingwood coaching department won't be giving it much thought. The fact is that with experience comes composure. So many ignore the fact that when experienced players come back into the side even the less experienced players benefit by virtue of the experience around them. Ultimately there are only positives to take from that game given the personnel to return over the next month or so. Those players will give the match committee massive options to restructure and frankly I couldn't see a full strength Hawthorn getting within 30 points of a full strength Collingwood.

 

[half_back_flank]

I think it's time for Harry to get back to basics and start by playing the sort of dogged, relentless defensive game that saw him give Scott Lucas nightmares back in the early days. Anything that comes after that is a bonus, but just set him a task of taking a player out of the game.

In his defence he did start to do a bit more of this in the second half, he was pretty tight on Cyril after half time. Would have been nice to have that sort of tagging in Q2 though (although I have a feeling that the Cyril brilliance began when he was playing on Shaw, not Harry).

That goal in the second quarter where he let Rioli goal side and the ball went over the back for an easy goal was one of the most putrid attempts at defending i've seen.

He isn't defending particularly well nor is he offering anything when rebounding other than a big bomb that every team in the competition has already worked out.

At the moment i don't think he is up to taking the best small forward, i'd rather see Toov's, BJ when he comes back or even Taz (has shown in the past that he can play on smalls, although is getting on now) take them.

 

[doppleganger]

I thought in 2008 that Reid would be our Buddy smotherer but he is not. He wore on his face and in his body language the pain and despair of every struggle with Buddy, and in several contests his expressions indicated he was crushed and frustrated. As suggested, playing the ball rather than Buddy may have helped, but realistically Reid is suited to a different role, leaving Tarrant or even Keefe as future opponents. Assistance from other defenders was largely absent with so many talls missing and Keefe reluctant to leave his opponent.

Keefe on Buddy??

Am I the only person who watched the game and spotted that Buddy gets all of his goals like a Milne, S.Johnson type of forward? He took one damgerous mark for the game....he tended to drop marks and not be a threat in the air at all, but it is his agility, pace, and freakish talent that generates his goals.

Tarrant is perfect for him, because Tarrant has the agility and skill to play on small defenders....so he can handle Buddy. The height has nothing to do with anything.

If Harry was in form, he would be a good match up....but last night I would have tried Toovey on him. And I keep mentioning that Goldsack is the perfect match-up for him.

Reid would have been better suited playing on a Gunston type and providing rebound.

All teams should be playing their defenders who are agile and normally play on the Milne, S.Johnson's of the game and actually force Buddy to try and beat you in the air....it is the weakness in his game.

 

[SuperSub17]

Keefe on Buddy??

Am I the only person who watched the game and spotted that Buddy gets all of his goals like a Milne, S.Johnson type of forward? He took one damgerous mark for the game....he tended to drop marks and not be a threat in the air at all, but it is his agility, pace, and freakish talent that generates his goals.

Tarrant is perfect for him, because Tarrant has the agility and skill to play on small defenders....so he can handle Buddy. The height has nothing to do with anything.

If Harry was in form, he would be a good match up....but last night I would have tried Toovey on him. And I keep mentioning that Goldsack is the perfect match-up for him.

Reid would have been better suited playing on a Gunston type and providing rebound.

All teams should be playing their defenders who are agile and normally play on the Milne, S.Johnson's of the game and actually force Buddy to try and beat you in the air....it is the weakness in his game.