Autopsy Rd 11 Another Blues fade out, another loss

[ETET]

its also easy to look at the vision from the 50m arc onwards, what running have they done the last 30seconds? Kennedy is a fitness beast who runs all day, maybe setters was stufffed......

i hate the bullshit excuses on here for the stars, does my head in.

I hear you but I was there, he wasn't stuffed, they were slow jogging form behind half way, Setters just stopped. Kennedy continued to amble along deep inside 50 in line with the ball. I agree it is a constant across the group from captains down. These examples won't change though until they all decide to change it (Coaches and players). The reason it stood out for me was the scoreline at the time ..we were 3 goals up and I thought "why am I screaming at him, why do I seem to care more?"

Wayne Bennet said it well when he spoke to players "we cannot afford to have you in the team, if everyone does that then we lose by 50, why should the other players, doing the right thing, have to make up the ground we lose through your efforts, its selfish"

 

[Dunna Heartknee]

How do you expect to win a game going in down 2 players before the game even starts? Seriously this is crazy stuff.

Being saying this for a long time, it puts to much stress and strain on the whole team.
We better brace ourselves for a few smashings and a lot of losses towards the end of the season.
Really poor by our club in this regard.

 

[billybloggs]

At Carlton it would be bloody horrible to be forward unless you were a talented mobile 2metre plus player who can take a grab.
Forward 50 always so crowded. Nigh on impossible to hit a target with so many players in there.
BUT DOWN the other end there is space to run into everywhere. WHY is this not addressed.

 

[FRUMPY]

I hear you but I was there, he wasn't stuffed, they were slow jogging form behind half way, Setters just stopped. Kennedy continued to amble along deep inside 50 in line with the ball. I agree it is a constant across the group from captains down. These examples won't change though until they all decide to change it (Coaches and players). The reason it stood out for me was the scoreline at the time ..we were 3 goals up and I thought "why am I screaming at him, why do I seem to care more?"

Wayne Bennet said it well when he spoke to players "we cannot afford to have you in the team, if everyone does that then we lose by 50, why should the other players, doing the right thing, have to make up the ground we lose through your efforts, its selfish"

Agree, i just hate the 'its ok for cripps because he is on the bottom of packs alot' - cripps is a shocking chaser. Its not ok for anyone to do what setterfield and a host of others do every week. fish rots at the head and al that

 

[JustaBattler]

ok got nothing to do with the post you quoted. I said before the game dumb to play all of Casboult, pitto and TDK and i said Martin should come back via VFL (same with fisher)

I back the Club to play fit players or fit enough to do their job/play their role - even if not fit enough to actually star.

Watching the game it became clear very early on that Levi and Martin were not fit to play and this is can only be ascertained by us on the outside based on their performance during a game. In other words I look at the team selected and think ok these players are fit to play their roles. If I watch the game and see they weren't fit to play - then my confidence in team selection at the basic level of competence - goes down really fast.

If the same decisions and same outcomes are made every week - then the evidence about team selection adds up.

The lack of a structured game plan explains to me the reluctance of Teague to switch players out or in based on form/fitness. It means the coaches and game plan (whatever it is) is reliant on individual contributions, more than system-based roles.

Inexplicable to select Levi - as a non-ruck backup and ignore two better running defending and natural position players in Parks and Williamson.

Teague and co have to at the very least prefer fit players to unfit players. Levi and even manages to pull off basic field kicks in his current state - you can tell by the way he moves that he doesn't rate his own chances of executing anything - I really feel for Levi - it isn't his fault he gets picked.

 

[BlueAbroad]

 

[Beer n Skittles]

There was a very interesting clip on Footy Classified last night taking a look at part of Melbourne's system and it seems so logical. They virtually never have more than one player attack a particular contest or tackle an opposition player...so when the ball eventually does come loose, there's a Demons player there to either take possession or engage in the next contest. Makes perfect sense, and I very much doubt our blokes even think of things like that. The number of times you see opposition players break away from contests involving our blokes is just way too high. Great when it goes our way...but when it doesn't...it's just far too easy.

For that style to work every single player has to be able to stick their tackles. We couldn't pull it off

 

[Earls Smother]

Michael Gibbons 2019: 14.6 disposals (4.7 CP), 0.76 goals, 2.7 tackles
Michael Gibbons 2020: 13.8 disposals (4.5 CP), 0.73 goals, 2.8 tackles (slightly shortened game time)
Michael Gibbons 2021: 14.2 disposals (5.3 CP), 0.72 goals, 2.5 tackles

He's nothing if not consistnet - maybe slightly down on previous years, but with higher CP and playing in a team that is pretty devoid of excitement/energy.

The big worry is that the goals seem to be in a bit of a drought: he kicked 6.1 in the first 3 rounds, then 0.4 in the next 3 (so at least still generating shots on goal). In the last 5 games he has 2.0 - only generating two shots on goal in five matches as a forward simply isn't good enough form. Probably due for a spell even if he wasn't injured...

Consistent, yes.

But also the classic example of stagnation. We finished 12th last year and he is clearly one of our bottom 4 - 6 players. If our bottom 4 - 6 players stagnate (and continue to get a game), then the team will as well.

If he gets replaced by someone averaging 18 disposals, 1.5 goals and 4 tackles, then that improves us. A player in his position (and rank within the team) needs to actually improve, not serve up the same mediocrity to be considered acceptable. The easiest positions to improve should be those ranked in your bottom 4 - 6, as they are starting at a lower base. Either improve, or get pushed out of the team.

 

[Coops93]

I think the drop off with Gibbons isn't about career averages, it's about his drop off this season. The first 5 rounds he averaged 18.2 possessions and had kicked 6 goals. Not bad for a small half forward flanker type.

Since then he averages only 10.8 possessions and has kicked 2 goals.

Something has changed, no idea what, though.

 

[Pentatonic Flat Fifth]

I back the Club to play fit players or fit enough to do their job/play their role - even if not fit enough to actually star.

Watching the game it became clear very early on that Levi and Martin were not fit to play and this is can only be ascertained by us on the outside based on their performance during a game. In other words I look at the team selected and think ok these players are fit to play their roles. If I watch the game and see they weren't fit to play - then my confidence in team selection at the basic level of competence - goes down really fast.

If the same decisions and same outcomes are made every week - then the evidence about team selection adds up.

The lack of a structured game plan explains to me the reluctance of Teague to switch players out or in based on form/fitness. It means the coaches and game plan (whatever it is) is reliant on individual contributions, more than system-based roles.

Inexplicable to select Levi - as a non-ruck backup and ignore two better running defending and natural position players in Parks and Williamson.

Teague and co have to at the very least prefer fit players to unfit players. Levi and even manages to pull off basic field kicks in his current state - you can tell by the way he moves that he doesn't rate his own chances of executing anything - I really feel for Levi - it isn't his fault he gets picked.

Martin and Newman came into the team with zero and 1 game in the VFL - Newman quite frankly needs to go back. Parks being dropped for a single bad game is quite frankly the damning example of Teagues age mantra I have seen.

The Levi, Pittonet, TDK, Harry quatro was dumbfounding.

There seemed a sense of desperation - do anything, anything at all except what needs to be done.

 

[FRUMPY]

Martin and Newman came into the team with zero and 1 game in the VFL - Newman quite frankly needs to go back. Parks being dropped for a single bad game is quite frankly the damning example of Teagues age mantra I have seen.

The Levi, Pittonet, TDK, Harry quatro was dumbfounding.

There seemed a sense of desperation - do anything, anything at all except what needs to be done.

Parks deserved to be dropped for that game, no ifs or buts

 

[Earls Smother]

I think the drop off with Gibbons isn't about career averages, it's about his drop off this season. The first 5 rounds he averaged 18.2 possessions and had kicked 6 goals. Not bad for a small half forward flanker type.

Since then he averages only 10.8 possessions and has kicked 2 goals.

Something has changed, no idea what, though.

He should actually be finding it easier to get a bit more of the ball, as he has more licence to roam with Betts and Owies generally staying closer to goal.

Our bottom end are hurting us badly at present. Gibbons, Setters, Casboult, Murphy (age obviously), Cottrell, Fogarty and Owies are all battlers. Cottrell, Fogarty and Owies at least have assets to work with, and don't need to be written off yet - they just ideally shouldn't be getting a game right now.

We aren't going anywhere while the other 4 continue to get games, unless Levi's knee miraculously comes good. At least Gibbons tries, Setterfield is just a massive disappointment for a bloke drafted 5/6.

Edit: Throw Pittonet in there as well.

 

[btdg]

Consistent, yes.

But also the classic example of stagnation. We finished 12th last year and he is clearly one of our bottom 4 - 6 players. If our bottom 4 - 6 players stagnate (and continue to get a game), then the team will as well.

If he gets replaced by someone averaging 18 disposals, 1.5 goals and 4 tackles, then that improves us. A player in his position (and rank within the team) needs to actually improve, not serve up the same mediocrity to be considered acceptable. The easiest positions to improve should be those ranked in your bottom 4 - 6, as they are starting at a lower base. Either improve, or get pushed out of the team.

Yes, this is true - although there isn't anyone in the league averaging 18 disposals, 1.5 goals and 4 tackles (unless I have missed someone). The closest would be:
- Toby Greene: 19 disposals, 2.4 goals, 2.1 tackles
- Jaidyn Stephenson: 19 disposals, 1.3 goals, 2.1 tackles
- Shai Bolton: 21 diposals, 1.2 goals, 3.4 tackles
- Luke Breust: 13 disposals, 1.6 goals, 3.6 tackles
- Matt Owies: 1.5 goals, 4 tackles, 9 disposals

A better argument with Gibbons and all of our bottom 4-6 would be that you need them to hit ONE of those marks, and hopefully two: 18 touches, 1.5 goals (or two shots at goal), OR 4-5 tackles. Owies coming in and providing both goals and tackles has given us a spark that we have lacked IMO.

Against Sydney we had an astonishing 11 players who didn't hit any single one of those benchmarks: Williams, Setterfield, Fogarty, Martin, Weitering, Stocker, Cottrell, Casboult, Gibbons, Jones, Pittonet. The key defenders maybe get a bit of a pass because they provide other roles. Perhaps also the ruckman. But running defenders, on-ball midfielders, and forwards who can't win the ball, impact the scoreboard or apply defensive pressure - too much of a liability.

The only Carlton player who hit TWO of those benchmarks was Newman (18 disposals and 4 tackles). Cripps hit all 3 (27 disposals, 5 tackles, 3 shots at goal).

Sydney, in comparison had 8 players hit TWO of those benchmarks, and 13 players overall reach at least one.

 

[Pixelshooter]

For that style to work every single player has to be able to stick their tackles. We couldn't pull it off

I don't look at it like that. Why would you ever need multiple players laying a tackle with nobody on the outside protecting the zone where a ball can come loose? It just exposes you too much.

 

[Gethelred]

Think Gibbons and all of our small forwards for that matter would have better impact if they had some bigger bodies around them.

They are often surrounded by fellow smalls all in the same vicinity at the same time often getting out marked or outmuscled.

Nope.

Why are the defenders always first to the ball inside our forward line? Why, when the ball drops in front of a marking contest or a pack, are there no smalls there for the crumb? Why is our small's positioning within forward 50 the genuine worst in the comp?

Whoever is deciding where our smalls set up is a moron. It hasn't hurt Richmond to have nothing but shortarses who know how to tackle and run inside forward 50, and it didn't hurt Hawthorn either.

We have Eddie Betts, and we're using him as a marking target.

 

[Earls Smother]

Yes, this is true - although there isn't anyone in the league averaging 18 disposals, 1.5 goals and 4 tackles (unless I have missed someone). The closest would be:
- Toby Greene: 19 disposals, 2.4 goals, 2.1 tackles
- Jaidyn Stephenson: 19 disposals, 1.3 goals, 2.1 tackles
- Shai Bolton: 21 diposals, 1.2 goals, 3.4 tackles
- Luke Breust: 13 disposals, 1.6 goals, 3.6 tackles
- Matt Owies: 1.5 goals, 4 tackles, 9 disposals

A better argument with Gibbons and all of our bottom 4-6 would be that you need them to hit ONE of those marks, and hopefully two: 18 touches, 1.5 goals (or two shots at goal), OR 4-5 tackles. Owies coming in and providing both goals and tackles has given us a spark that we have lacked IMO.

Against Sydney we had an astonishing 11 players who didn't hit any single one of those benchmarks: Williams, Setterfield, Fogarty, Martin, Weitering, Stocker, Cottrell, Casboult, Gibbons, Jones, Pittonet. The key defenders maybe get a bit of a pass because they provide other roles. Perhaps also the ruckman. But running defenders, on-ball midfielders, and forwards who can't win the ball, impact the scoreboard or apply defensive pressure - too much of a liability.

The only Carlton player who hit TWO of those benchmarks was Newman (18 disposals and 4 tackles). Cripps hit all 3 (27 disposals, 5 tackles, 3 shots at goal).

Sydney, in comparison had 8 players hit TWO of those benchmarks, and 13 players overall reach at least one.

Good points. I randomly plucked improved numbers as an example, but obviously set the bar a bit high.

The gist of what I said is, that we can't accept that our bottom end players can continue at the same level, if we are to improve.

 

[Stamos]

I think the drop off with Gibbons isn't about career averages, it's about his drop off this season. The first 5 rounds he averaged 18.2 possessions and had kicked 6 goals. Not bad for a small half forward flanker type.

Since then he averages only 10.8 possessions and has kicked 2 goals.

Something has changed, no idea what, though.

Stats would likely look even better if it was just his first 3 games (when he kicked those 6).
His form dropped from there, he was poor against the Gold Coast and Port, even though he was getting the ball.

 

[Stamos]

Nope.

Why are the defenders always first to the ball inside our forward line? Why, when the ball drops in front of a marking contest or a pack, are there no smalls there for the crumb? Why is our small's positioning within forward 50 the genuine worst in the comp?

Whoever is deciding where our smalls set up is a moron. It hasn't hurt Richmond to have nothing but shortarses who know how to tackle and run inside forward 50, and it didn't hurt Hawthorn either.

We have Eddie Betts, and we're using him as a marking target.

Not just forwardline contests.
Our set ups around the contest all over the field, starting at the centre bounce, are shithouse.

 

[Arr0w]

I think the drop off with Gibbons isn't about career averages, it's about his drop off this season. The first 5 rounds he averaged 18.2 possessions and had kicked 6 goals. Not bad for a small half forward flanker type.

Since then he averages only 10.8 possessions and has kicked 2 goals.

Something has changed, no idea what, though.

Other players have had similar declines

Fog averaged over 20 for the first 3 games, that's dropped below 15 since

Again, I believe the lack of possession footy due to this gameplan is hurting players and the team

 

[Coops93]

Other players have had similar declines

Fog averaged over 20 for the first 3 games, that's dropped below 15 since

Again, I believe the lack of possession footy due to this gameplan is hurting players and the team

I'm beginning to think defensive gameplan is as much to blame. The 1v1 approach is too demanding on players to run both ways all game.

 

[Pixelshooter]

I'm beginning to think defensive gameplan is as much to blame. The 1v1 approach is too demanding on players to run both ways all game.

Spot on. And when you have a proper team oriented defensive process embedded within the playing group, it isn't such a massive issue when one player goes out with injury. If the group is well drilled, the slack can be taken up.

 

[Skull Face]

Victims. Sheesh. Let it go.

Agree to disagree, never forget.

 

[Aphrodite]

Agree to disagree, never forget.

Move on!

 

[Skull Face]

Move on!

Stop quoting me and I will

 

[Aphrodite]

Stop quoting me and I will

I've quoted you ONCE!