Autopsy Rd 14 Loss: Here comes another one, just like the other one

[Blue Warrior]

Something else that bothered me last night - that leech Matt de Boer went to Sam Walsh from the first bounce. They dropped the tag a bit in the second half, but in the first half did anybody think to maybe go into bat for the 20 year old copping a hard tag for the first time in his career?

Crippa, Ed - you’re standing next to him at the centre bounce - ******* put a body across. Block him. Tackle to hurt. Let him know that if he wants to sit on Walshy he’s going to need to sit in the ice bath for the next 2 days.

We’ve been horrible at this for years - could you imagine if this was Hawthorn 2013-15 and de Boer tried to sit on Sam Mitchell? Hodge would have run through him and crunched him multiple times. Our team needs a serious dose of campaigner (I think you guys like “mongrel” here)

CORRECT!

We have been a soft nice side for too long this has to change and unfortunately the current coach doesn't have enough campaigner in him to get it out of them. All the good sides/coaches have a nasty streak and that's why they win premierships they play close to the line sometimes stepping over it but it sets a hard edge/ standard.
People are saying put the gloves on them like Hawks did recently.
I unfortunately feel our players would go to the AFLPA and complain as they do not have that hard edge and would sook it up.
If we don't change the Culture of this group we are looking at another wasted 5 years.

 

[AlecDuncan]

Good on Kennedy for proving me wrong this week. Keep proving me wrong Bam-Bam.

 

[mochacinolatte]

I agree with Loose at HB , where was "looking after your teammates". No one gave De Boar a few pushes and shoves. s**t was depressing to watch.

 

[Zlatan]

Can someone describe Stockers game last night. I note he is in the votes. I really like this kid and starting to think if there are players not happy him - maybe they should leave !!


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Even though the club is doing wrong by him and playing him in the back pocket, he’s still putting in more effort than most of the team; something which goes against the ethos of most of the current group.

 

[gab213]

Was excellent, far better than I expected, where has this Kennedy been? He'd be in every week if he could keep that up.

Stocker was good too, that sublime kick he did to Owies? in the F50, I think it was, sure would be nice to have that in the midfield ffs.

Knowing us though, next week it'll be Murphy in and Kennedy medical sub.

Kennedy was great and hopefully this time he can back it up with 3 or 4 strong performances in a row. The problem in the past has been that he'll put in one good performance but not be able to follow it up with much. I really hope that this time is different and that he manages to stay on our list.

 

[gab213]

Even though the club is doing wrong by him and playing him in the back pocket, he’s still putting in more effort than most of the team; something which goes against the ethos of most of the current group.

Nobody is doing him wrong, he's developing and when the time comes that he's in the middle more than he's not we'll be lauding his ability to defend as well. We complain about our midfielders now having no defensive mindset etc, he will have a well developed one.

 

[__Bobcat__]

We are at.

 

[Iamcarlton]

I'm not sure Lyon is the correct fit. Worried he might be another Malthouse.

I'm not sure who is available, what their credentials are, what the requirements would be. (other than turning around a huge bohemoth of a club in quick time) What the KPI's would be etc...

But, something needs to change. Unconditional effort, collective effort, adherence to game plan, no room for individuals. One in, all in.

A touch of on field mongrel wouldn't hurt either. I'm hacked off at seeing us get pushed around by plastic football clubs all the time.

Not sure about Lyon either but looking from a long way outside the club how would we actually know who is the best fit ? .
But we are here to give opinions also and im starting to think he's one of very few options we may have to explore .
If you want buy in and the tangibles youve mentioned Lyon will demand it and if he doesnt get it you'll be out of the place .
I think this is the start and end of our issues total buy in .

I really dont think we can compare Lyon to Malthouse as clearly Malthouse wasnt as invested as he could have been in the club .
Carlton sides just dont work hard enough on match day that is clear have said this for 3-4 years .
For whatever reason fitness , game plan , buy in dont know but i feel this is irrefutable .
These types of games v GWS just happen too often .

If he put a few off side thats fine with me because the club now must demand higher standards from its players and coaches .
Do we stick with Teague not looking good for mine as imo its clear he doesnt have anywhere near total buy in .
And that comes out with games like last night .
Do we go for a 3rd untried coach in this rebuild too risky imo will the players just continue to show up when they feel like it .

Whatever the case the next few weeks and rest of this year will tell a story on Teague and maybe even whether this rebuild will amount to very little or prosper .
We are fairly and squarely at the crossroads .

 

[fnm_just a man]

I’ve said it for the last five years. We have the worst culture in the league. Our leaders are the worst in the league. Nothing will change until the club makes SIGNIFICANT change. That is why I welcome this review.

Murphy, Ed Curnow, Cas, Eddie and to a certain degree Cripps and Doc have been part of a losing culture/mentality their entire careers. They are all fragile. They go in to their shell when things go wrong. We have no strength, will to win or intestinal fortitude.

I firmly believe the review will call for a clean out of the first four players above and for a strong, younger captain who does not accept half-arsed efforts. Weitering is my choice as Walsh is too introverted.

The only thing I disagree with is that you limit it to 5 years ... Let's not forget Whitnall was made captain in 2007 - says it all really.

 

[__Bobcat__]

I agree with Loose at HB , where was "looking after your teammates". No one gave De Boar a few pushes and shoves. sh*t was depressing to watch.

Start of the Game there was a lot of Pushing and Shoving into De Boar.
It didn't continue as much as it should've though..

 

[lilJeffyG]

I’ve said it for the last five years. We have the worst culture in the league. Our leaders are the worst in the league. Nothing will change until the club makes SIGNIFICANT change. That is why I welcome this review.

Murphy, Ed Curnow, Cas, Eddie and to a certain degree Cripps and Doc have been part of a losing culture/mentality their entire careers. They are all fragile. They go in to their shell when things go wrong. We have no strength, will to win or intestinal fortitude.

I firmly believe the review will call for a clean out of the first four players above and for a strong, younger captain who does not accept half-arsed efforts. Weitering is my choice as Walsh is too introverted.

I agree with this to a certain extent, but we could have dusty, petracca, dangefield and fyffe come to the club and they would regress alarmingly. And we would not improve one iota with the lot of them in the team.

 

[Red Bull]

Start of the Game there was a lot of Pushing and Shoving into De Boar.
It didn't continue as much as it should've though..

It staggers me that the likes of Pittonet don’t address this kind of thing with any relish.
DeBoar had to be made aware that a price would be paid for his “attention” to Walsh.
This feeble mindset is unfortunately deeply ingrained in our club these days …

 

[Hunter 9]

Good luck to the jumper punch fellas trying to find 5 players to give votes for.

 

[Zlatan]

Nobody is doing him wrong, he's developing and when the time comes that he's in the middle more than he's not we'll be lauding his ability to defend as well. We complain about our midfielders now having no defensive mindset etc, he will have a well developed one.

Bogus. Why can’t he learn to defend in his natural position as a midfielder? What is playing in the back pocket against small forwards going to teach him? Why isn’t every single midfielder started off in the back pocket?

Put the players in their natural positions and let them learn that.

 

[gab213]

Bogus. Why can’t he learn to defend in his natural position as a midfielder? What is playing in the back pocket against small forwards going to teach him? Why isn’t every single midfielder started off in the back pocket?

Put the players in their natural positions and let them learn that.

Might want to ask Brett Ratten what he learnt as a back pocket player before being moved into the midfield. It happens with a lot of players, it's hardly bogus at all, it just suits a current narrative to throw arms up about it.

 

[Wickzki]

You’re giving them up to 18 mths?

If standards haven’t lifted by the end of the first pre-season session in NOV then we may as well be following a Div 4 club in the ammos.

I suspect/hope that the review finds a similar tl;dr to my post.

If nothing but the names change then there wont be much change if any.

The issues run deeper than any singular coach or coaching staff. Those pointing solely at Teague or the assistants are finding a symptom but not the cause.

I believe we will play markedly better football next season.

I have lost faith in Teague but the issues run deeper and while he shoulders some of the responsibility (as do all of the individuals involved) its an organisational issue more than individual parts

 

[Zlatan]

Might want to ask Brett Ratten what he learnt as a back pocket player before being moved into the midfield. It happens with a lot of players, it's hardly bogus at all, it just suits a current narrative to throw arms up about it.

Brett Ratten became a great midfielder due to playing in the back pocket? Nah.

Cant wait to see Kemp playing in the back pocket to be “developed” as well.

 

[gab213]

Brett Ratten became a great midfielder due to playing in the back pocket? Nah.

Cant wait to see Kemp playing in the back pocket to be “developed” as well.

I would think that Kemp is on a different level to Stocker and I wouldn't be surprised with Kemp having a role down back either for other reasons.

 

[JustaBattler]

Teagues approach of playing midfielders anywhere except in the midfield 'to learn their craft' is at odds with the way other Clubs develop players- in their correct positions. This mantra of "Ratten started off HBF notion" is like 3 decades old now- in a side which was a champion side anyway...

Carlton is extremely poor at ground ball gets in contested space not only are skills poor but set up is poor and extraction is poor and defensive thinking is poor- that is where GWS beat the side last night as does every other side, that and having absolutely no idea how to stop uncontested possessions.

Teague needs someone of standing to explain to him why uncontested possessions are bad whn they number in multiples against you and he needs someone to explain to him that training midfield is all about how to win the hard ball, keep it in possession when you do and stop the opposition from easy spread if they win it.

These basics are not what an AFL coach should need to be taught.

Sick of making up excuses for this and that and the other thing that is wrong and can be 'easily' fixed - the easy fix is to understand the coach and his matey mates next to him that laugh at the team during games are just not up to it.

 

[Zlatan]

I would think that Kemp is on a different level to Stocker and I wouldn't be surprised with Kemp having a role down back either for other reasons.

The coaching department being completely inept is definitely a reason.

 

[Tony Lynn 15]

Better pop on some extra snags Thursday night!

 

[branedotorg]

Even though our team gave into being bullied and being outclassed.
There was a real big positive that came out of this game.
Kennedy and Stocker were not outclassed or bullied into submission.
They actually stood up and enforced intimidation.

Liked seeing stocker, when outmarked by green, drove him into the turf with his body.

We don't do that sort of stuff, it's not just nasty, it's also cynical and smart, the extra 15 seconds gives us a chance to reset defensive structure.

 

[Red Bull]

Better pop on some extra snags Thursday night!

Only if you’ve upgraded your membership …

 

[gab213]

Teagues approach of playing midfielders anywhere except in the midfield 'to learn their craft' is at odds with the way other Clubs develop players- in their correct positions. This mantra of "Ratten started off HBF notion" is like 3 decades old now- in a side which was a champion side anyway...

Carlton is extremely poor at ground ball gets in contested space not only are skills poor but set up is poor and extraction is poor and defensive thinking is poor- that is where GWS beat the side last night as does every other side, that and having absolutely no idea how to stop uncontested possessions.

Teague needs someone of standing to explain to him why uncontested possessions are bad whn they number in multiples against you and he needs someone to explain to him that training midfield is all about how to win the hard ball, keep it in possession when you do and stop the opposition from easy spread if they win it.

These basics are not what an AFL coach should need to be taught.

Sick of making up excuses for this and that and the other thing that is wrong and can be 'easily' fixed - the easy fix is to understand the coach and his matey mates next to him that laugh at the team during games are just not up to it.

Well, agreed that it was 3 decades ago but Ratten didn't come into a champion side, he came into the worst performed side that had represented Carlton in the previous 25 years. No Carlton team had ever finished lower on the ladder than the 1991 team.

In saying this I'm not defending all aspects of coaching, there are problems for sure but our problems aren't ALL to do with coaching. If we were winning games regularly nobody would be caring at all where Stocker was playing at the start of his career.

 

[CarltonBlooz]

Brett Ratten became a great midfielder due to playing in the back pocket? Nah.

Cant wait to see Kemp playing in the back pocket to be “developed” as well.

Kemp is utility, Stocker is not, agree its really dumb and lol at the constant examples of ex-footballers who did do well there.

You joke about Kemp but I wouldn't at all be surprised if he started back there.

Bloody hell Cobber "Insert ex-Carlton player from 30 years ago did it" Stocker can do it too!

Worked out well for SPS.