Autopsy Rd 16 Blues last quarter comeback ends in heartbreak

Who played well for the Blues against the Dees in Round 16?


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Arr0w

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Arrow here’s a factual simple summary: your view is that umpires didn’t have an impact. Your evidence for that is direct shots on goal (I haven’t bothered checking). My view is that for the first three quarters the rub of the green in 50/50s went strongly against us and hurt field position badly. Which leads to goals (either foregone opportunity cost goals or direct goals). You don’t get it. You’re not even capable of agreeing to disagree. So the convo is over. No man playing. Just over.
So your debate is around field position due to a 50/50 frees not going our way? So then the events after that, our poor positioning, poor disposal and decision making, player driven, should be completely ignored and the main contributor was that 50/50 free against us?

That is some staggering analysis
 

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Arr0w

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Okay let's break it down, one at a time

One against Jones, 23 seconds into the 3rd quarter from a centre clearance kick from Oliver:

Did Jones plant a foot into McDonald's lower back, forcing him forward (essentially tunneling), while making no contact with a right fist spoil?
 

Bamboo Harvester

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The one against Jones was there, planted his foot in McDonald's lower back, pushed him under the ball and made no contact with the ball himself
It was no different to Riewoldt's attempt in round 1 that was ignored by the umpire to allow Lynch to mark unopposed.

Yes it was 16 odd rounds back, but either displays inconsistency with umpiring, or differing standards applied across the board.

The umpiring on Sunday was rubbish for the most part, but we received dodgy free kicks as well that had me scratching the bonce. I agree though that we have to stop blaming the umpires for our lack of skill in getting over the line in those close games.

Our time will come when it matters.
 

Arr0w

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It was no different to Riewoldt's attempt in round 1 that was ignored by the umpire to allow Lynch to mark unopposed.

Yes it was 16 odd rounds back, but either displays inconsistency with umpiring, or differing standards applied across the board.

The umpiring on Sunday was rubbish for the most part, but we received dodgy free kicks as well that had me scratching the bonce. I agree though that we have to stop blaming the umpires for our lack of skill in getting over the line in those close games.

Our time will come when it matters.
I agree, there are always inconsistencies, but it is rare that different contests in game or even 16 weeks apart are identical. There were good and bad decisions both ways. 26 frees a piece, yet we had 70 turnovers v 66, clangers 64 v 58, disposal efficiency 63.6 v 72.8. Surely that paints a clear picture
 

BluStreak

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There can be only 1
One against Jones, 23 seconds into the 3rd quarter from a centre clearance kick from Oliver:
Did Jones plant a foot into McDonald's lower back, forcing him forward (essentially tunneling), while making no contact with a right fist spoil?
the correct answer is yes he did.
The next correct question is 'did Jones intend to take McDonald out of the play or was he actually going for the ball?'
We all know that Jones plays the ball and that he gets it wrong a bit.

How many times has a forward held a defender, impeding their approach to the ball?
How many times has a forward planted a foot or knee or hands on a defender (taking them out of the equation) while going for a mark and missed it completely but not given a free away?

So for my view that was not a free to McDonald.

How about the occasions when Oliver ran further than 15 meter without a bounce? One directly resulted in a mark to McDonald at the top of the goal square. Everyone threw up their arms around Oliver at the time. Jones stopped because of that and McDonald took an easy chest mark.

The umpires impacted this game.
 

Arr0w

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the correct answer is yes he did.
The next correct question is 'did Jones intend to take McDonald out of the play or was he actually going for the ball?'
We all know that Jones plays the ball and that he gets it wrong a bit.

How many times has a forward held a defender, impeding their approach to the ball?
How many times has a forward planted a foot or knee or hands on a defender (taking them out of the equation) while going for a mark and missed it completely but not given a free away?

So for my view that was not a free to McDonald.

How about the occasions when Oliver ran further than 15 meter without a bounce? One directly resulted in a mark to McDonald at the top of the goal square. Everyone threw up their arms around Oliver at the time. Jones stopped because of that and McDonald took an easy chest mark.

The umpires impacted this game.
Jones's intent was to spoil the ball, but he got it wrong. As for forwards, using a knee, foot, hands to push, block or protect the fall of the ball, backman have the same rights as long as they make some contact with the ball.

As young Jack did when he forced Petty under the ball for a mark and goal

As for Oliver, he took 14 steps (probably more than 15 metres), it could have gone either and I have seen worse.
 

Antonio BlueVein

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Re-watched the game

1st Qtr - Our hands, disposal by hand and foot was putrid. Dow in the open kicking to a leading McGovern was poor, ball slingshots to the other end an Demons convert. If he is to remain in the side it can't be as a high HF, a deep leading pocket player would suit better. Walsh's attack on the ball was beyond his years. Levi's kicking has continued to improve.McGovern from 20 metres out, needs to convert from those shots. Umpires did not directly contribute to any of the Demon's 4 goals

2nd Qtr - Again our decision making and disposal was poor, many times when players were out, we couldn't hit them. Levi's continued to be good by foot, Jack was also clean again and our best player for the half, followed by Weitering how controlled the aerial contests. Again, Umpires did not directly contribute to any of the Demon's 3 goals

Not sure how we were so close at half time, our workrate to run defensively was poor, amazingly Demons outnumbered us in the forward half when they spread

3rd Qtr - Awareness and composure was again poor, panicking around stoppages with one handball then a kick rather than releasing the ball through a series of handballs, again this stems from players not being on the move to get in the clear for the next handball receive. Levi again kicking straight. Who would have thought we would be calling for 2 Jack's, one forward and one on the ball. Setterfield is starting to move more freely, especially sideways, his kicking will start to improve dramatically. Of the 7 goals Demons kicked only 1 was directly from an umpire decision to McDonald when Jones planted his foot in his lower back in a marking contest, but failed to touch the ball, free kick was accurate

4th Qtr - All of a sudden we are a different side. Now 2 or more handballs from congestion to a player on the outer, kicking with more penetration to leading targets, 2 way running, spread and turning around a 38 point deficit to hit the lead. Then when the game is there to be won, needing composure in pressure moments, we cough the ball up. Walsh shoots a ball out by hand back into play that hits no one, while SPS was clean hiting Newman, he too fumbles, SPS again and hits Simmo by hand who stupidly tries to hit a short target inside rather than either releasing to the outside by hand or foot. The rest is history, even though McGovern could have squared the scores with a freak attempt

This game was lost in the first 3 quarters, poor intent and attack on the ball and player, apart from players such as Kruezer, SPS, Jack, Weitering and the best of them in Walsh. Our 2 way running, especially defensively cost us. What was also glaring is how many times we were pushed off the ball, or not able to stick tackles. All this could be attributed to most of our younger players needing another preseason.

Jack was clearly our best, when many around him fumbled or lacked composure, Jack seemed to buck that trend.

Kruezer while not outstanding was vital. SPS worked his way back into the game and guys like Kennedy, Setterfield are building nicely. Levi stays on the list, even as a mere backup for injury next year and get rid of Lobbe and Phillips, target a 23-26 year old ruck/forward. Newman is a good kick, but he is biting off too much in critical periods. Dow either plays as a hard leading forward pocket if he is to remain forward, rather than a high HF. Perhaps needs to spend some time each quarter back on the ball.

As for the umpires, not sure what game many of you were watching, even people stating that Demons kicked 12 goals from there 15. I only counted 1 to McDonald and IMHO it was a correct call.
Neat summary, am going to rewatch if I have time tomorrow. Looking likely if the weather forecast is accurate 💩
 

Gethelred

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I get what u are saying but that “daisy cutter” is the exception for him, not the norm. Yes he gets “crap jobs” playing on tough opponents but I’m afraid as a defender that is his job! Atm he is a conduit to goals for oppo teams either by poor defensive efforts or turnovers. His best is pretty good but he has a lot to sort out.
I singled out your post before, and I'm sorry to do it again, but here's my issue.

You have limited development time for each player. You've got x number of roles you need to fulfil; 1st KPD, 2ndKPD/intercept, 3rdKPD/intercept/rebounder/3rd man up, 1st small defender, 2nd small defender/rebounder, third small defender/intercept/rebounder. Each role requires development to work out. Weitering is 2nd KPD/intercept and 1stKPD; Marchbank is 2ndKPD/intercept and 3rdKPD/intercept/rebounder and Jones is 2ndKPD/intercept/rebounder; Simpson is 2nd small defender/rebounder and so is Daisy. We lack that 3rd man up, 1st small defender, and that 3rd small defender role (who's main criteria is the quality of their disposal and their speed of ball movement, not their defensive attributes), and as a consequence Plow is forced to play those roles.

Plow is very much a work in progress as a player, because we're developing him in all these directions. You're absolutely right that he needs to improve, but it's akin to kicking Dow at the moment to have a go at Plow because he's not able to match it up with the best 3rd defender/rebounders. We have limited development time, and we're moving him into becoming the catchall defender who can play all of these roles to a decent standard. He's not going to get there, completely, until he gets to the other side of 25-26, because that is how long it take to learn to play that many roles at AFL level. There is a reason why backmen are not fully appreciated until they are 28ish, and this is pretty close to it.
 

koutamarto

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I singled out your post before, and I'm sorry to do it again, but here's my issue.

You have limited development time for each player. You've got x number of roles you need to fulfil; 1st KPD, 2ndKPD/intercept, 3rdKPD/intercept/rebounder/3rd man up, 1st small defender, 2nd small defender/rebounder, third small defender/intercept/rebounder. Each role requires development to work out. Weitering is 2nd KPD/intercept and 1stKPD; Marchbank is 2ndKPD/intercept and 3rdKPD/intercept/rebounder and Jones is 2ndKPD/intercept/rebounder; Simpson is 2nd small defender/rebounder and so is Daisy. We lack that 3rd man up, 1st small defender, and that 3rd small defender role (who's main criteria is the quality of their disposal and their speed of ball movement, not their defensive attributes), and as a consequence Plow is forced to play those roles.

Plow is very much a work in progress as a player, because we're developing him in all these directions. You're absolutely right that he needs to improve, but it's akin to kicking Dow at the moment to have a go at Plow because he's not able to match it up with the best 3rd defender/rebounders. We have limited development time, and we're moving him into becoming the catchall defender who can play all of these roles to a decent standard. He's not going to get there, completely, until he gets to the other side of 25-26, because that is how long it take to learn to play that many roles at AFL level. There is a reason why backmen are not fully appreciated until they are 28ish, and this is pretty close to it.
He is 25 and just about to hit 100 games mate. Should be hitting his straps. I’d settle for hitting targets consistently.
 

Gethelred

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He is 25 and just about to hit 100 games mate. Should be hitting his straps. I’d settle for hitting targets consistently.
Did you read my post?

If Plow is the best person to play any given role in the back six - as the only person who can play all roles - then you can be assured that he's simply not going to do it as well as a person uniquely suited to it. On the weekend, he made more than a few mistakes, but this is ignoring how poor everyone else exiting back 50 was too; and this being a component of Daisy's, Marchbank's, Jones' and Simpson's roles. If they perform, there is less pressure on him to pull off a role to which at the moment he is unsuited.

He is not the complete player yet. He requires more time. And he's yet to turn 25 this season.
 

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koutamarto

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Did you read my post?

If Plow is the best person to play any given role in the back six - as the only person who can play all roles - then you can be assured that he's simply not going to do it as well as a person uniquely suited to it. On the weekend, he made more than a few mistakes, but this is ignoring how poor everyone else exiting back 50 was too; and this being a component of Daisy's, Marchbank's, Jones' and Simpson's roles. If they perform, there is less pressure on him to pull off a role to which at the moment he is unsuited.

He is not the complete player yet. He requires more time. And he's yet to turn 25 this season.
Yes I read your post and thought u got it wrong imo
Plowman and newman are the weak links.
Newman is suppose to be our distributor but couldnt hit Donald Trumps forehead and plow is our lockdown on the the most dangerous small/medium.

Plows main role is to lock down on his forward which is what he was drafted as, not to rebound. Some times he does it well sometimes he doesnt. add that to his suspect disposal we should be able to expect mroe of him at this point in his career. Plenty of defenders in the AA team last year aged 25ish.

U dont play 3 traditional KPD (some teams only play 1
1st KPD - Jones
2nd KPD - Weiters
Floating/3rd Man/Intercept - marchbank.(had heaps of upside. never had continuity)
Rebounding Defenders - simmo/newman/daisy
Lock down small/medium- Plowman/newam

His main role is to lock down on his forward whnot to rebound.
 

Gethelred

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Yes I read your post and thought u got it wrong imo
Plowman and newman are the weak links.
Newman is suppose to be our distributor but couldnt hit Donald Trumps forehead and plow is our lockdown on the the most dangerous small/medium.

Plows main role is to lock down on his forward which is what he was drafted as, not to rebound. Some times he does it well sometimes he doesnt. add that to his suspect disposal we should be able to expect mroe of him at this point in his career. Plenty of defenders in the AA team last year aged 25ish.

U dont play 3 traditional KPD (some teams only play 1
1st KPD - Jones
2nd KPD - Weiters
Floating/3rd Man/Intercept - marchbank.(had heaps of upside. never had continuity)
Rebounding Defenders - simmo/newman/daisy
Lock down small/medium- Plowman/newam

His main role is to lock down on his forward whnot to rebound.
...

So, you're having a go at him for a role that is not his job? That was literally my only criticism of what you were saying.

And most defenders are not expected to be able to stand any other type of oppositional forward, which is what we expect of Plow. Dylan Grimes, Corey Enright are the archetypes of what he's being developed towards; a catch all defender equally capable against smalls, talls and anything inbetween. Plenty of defenders - especially the rebounders and the intercept - play their natural games from the get go, where hard defense means more time is apportioned to body on body one on one work, instead of simply working on fitness and skills.
 

gardiner stand

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I singled out your post before, and I'm sorry to do it again, but here's my issue.

You have limited development time for each player. You've got x number of roles you need to fulfil; 1st KPD, 2ndKPD/intercept, 3rdKPD/intercept/rebounder/3rd man up, 1st small defender, 2nd small defender/rebounder, third small defender/intercept/rebounder. Each role requires development to work out. Weitering is 2nd KPD/intercept and 1stKPD; Marchbank is 2ndKPD/intercept and 3rdKPD/intercept/rebounder and Jones is 2ndKPD/intercept/rebounder; Simpson is 2nd small defender/rebounder and so is Daisy. We lack that 3rd man up, 1st small defender, and that 3rd small defender role (who's main criteria is the quality of their disposal and their speed of ball movement, not their defensive attributes), and as a consequence Plow is forced to play those roles.

Plow is very much a work in progress as a player, because we're developing him in all these directions. You're absolutely right that he needs to improve, but it's akin to kicking Dow at the moment to have a go at Plow because he's not able to match it up with the best 3rd defender/rebounders. We have limited development time, and we're moving him into becoming the catchall defender who can play all of these roles to a decent standard. He's not going to get there, completely, until he gets to the other side of 25-26, because that is how long it take to learn to play that many roles at AFL level. There is a reason why backmen are not fully appreciated until they are 28ish, and this is pretty close to it.
Barass from West Coast has played 57 games including a flag at 22. Defenders learn how to play after 25-26? Your defence of Plowman is becoming embarrassing just except that he’s a very limited footballer that does very little at a high standard. I could go through the current list of AFL players to further discredit this nonsense.
 

gardiner stand

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...

So, you're having a go at him for a role that is not his job? That was literally my only criticism of what you were saying.

And most defenders are not expected to be able to stand any other type of oppositional forward, which is what we expect of Plow. Dylan Grimes, Corey Enright are the archetypes of what he's being developed towards; a catch all defender equally capable against smalls, talls and anything inbetween. Plenty of defenders - especially the rebounders and the intercept - play their natural games from the get go, where hard defense means more time is apportioned to body on body one on one work, instead of simply working on fitness and skills.
Now mentioning Plowman in the same breath as Corey Enright, do you ever give up? You’re flogging a dead horse.
 

Gethelred

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Barass from West Coast has played 57 games including a flag at 22. Defenders learn how to play after 25-26? Your defence of Plowman is becoming embarrassing just except that he’s a very limited footballer that does very little at a high standard. I could go through the current list of AFL players to further discredit this nonsense.
Now mentioning Plowman in the same breath as Corey Enright, do you ever give up? You’re flogging a dead horse.
Anyone ever told you that dismissing something out of hand is tantamount to admitting that you lack an argument?

Neat strawman, too. That's not what I said, in either case. I'd suggest you go back and read what I wrote again. And it's 'accept'.
 
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gardiner stand

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Anyone ever told you that dismissing something out of hand is tantamount to admitting that you lack an argument?

Neat strawman, too. That's not what I said, in either case. I'd suggest you go back and read what I wrote again. And it's 'accept'.
Thanks for the patronising English lesson.
 

Gethelred

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Thanks for the patronising English lesson.
Please. Patronising is my father. I prefer Pat.

In all seriousness, GS, what did you think any response you got back to either of those posts would be? 'Oh yes, GS, I can see that you were right and I was wrong, despite you having a) aggressively oversimplified my posts in order to disprove them, and b) told me to stop flogging a dead horse'. I don't roll over when poked, nor do I lie there whilst kicked, nor should I expect that from anyone else.
 
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