Autopsy Rd 17 Blues lose to the bottom side after awful first half

Who played well in Round 17 vs the Crows?


  • Total voters
    137
  • Poll closed .

Remove this Banner Ad

FRUMPY

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 18, 2006
18,107
18,863
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
I don’t see an issue with smurph and simmo carrying Gibbs off the ground. Club should be more concerned about the lack of effort in the first half though. That’s where the real issue is.
I found it weird but when you think about it, it was a nice thing to do. Would have been no issue if we won and that is the big issue isnt it. If we win, none of it matters (im not sure the club would make a big issue of it, just express to the players exactly what i said - the optics of it can be questioned by others when we dont turn up to play. Play well and win and no-one can question it)
 

jpfalvo

Senior List
Aug 2, 2009
261
399
AFL Club
Carlton
Earls Smother said:
Absolutely you can if you are affected by mental fatigue.

The recent part of the fixture has been our worst. We have played:

Sunday - 4 day break - Thursday - 5 day break - Tuesday - 5 day break - Sunday. The crows on the other hand have played:

Bye - total of 9 days break - Tuesday - 7 day break - Tuesday - 5 day break - Sunday.

Whilst both teams were coming off a 5 day break, the lead up to that was very different. It just added up to us being as flat as a sh*t-carter's hat mentally.

We saw the signs last week of mental fatigue in the first half. Luckily our physical fitness got us out of jail. Again yesterday, our physical fitness saw us run out the game better and win the second half by nearly 5 goals.

Jimmae (how do I tag him?) wrote a post at half time in the Swans game about CNS fatigue which I think he must have deleted later as I can't find it. It's no surprise that guys like Gibbons and Cuners looked sharper than most others, having not played all the games.



Wow that's a fair run of posts you've put together :)

I assume you meant should rather than would? If so I totally agree. We managed this aspect poorly and it's hard to argue otherwise.

This mental weakness debate was totally twisted around by the usual suspect. His post #947 on page 38 basically said there was no mental aspect to any of our lapses within games - it was all down to coaching and structures.

A number of us debated the issue. My POV was more around mental fatigue (worst part of the fixture, 4 games in 14 days). Others argued that as humans we are all going to have varying levels of mental inconsistency. One poster may have mentioned directly that we were mentally weak.

It then became "You all say we are mentally weak, and I don't", which is of course not what occurred.

We would all agree that the Covid situation has compromised our learnings around set-ups etc. But to say that mental lapses within games has not contributed to the wild scoreboard swings is disingenuous at best.

We need to get better at a lot of things, but one of them is greater consistency in our mental application - both to begin games, and within the game when the tide turns against us.
Thats an excuse.

We lost in a poor showing to collingwood after a 9day break? Whats your excuse for that. Fatigue?

The trend of 5-7goal run ons has been going since Teague took over in 2019, basically every game. Whats the excuse for that?
Didnt train together? They had the whole of preseason with a fit list missing charlie only.

Fatigue in general in COVID fixturing is a furphy. The sydney game we won after a 4day break.

Additionally all other teams rotated their list, rested players and played the squad. What have we done with this, nothing. And behind the scenes Andrew Russell has been heavily criticised for it.

We were never a premiership threat this year, why was more time given to the kids to see what they can do in back end of this year?

Who will win our best first year player? Pretty difficult given honey, cottrill, owies, philips barely got a run, none demanding a best22 spot.

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Earls Smother

Team Captain
Oct 4, 2019
407
1,050
AFL Club
Carlton
Thats an excuse.

We lost in a poor showing to collingwood after a 9day break? Whats your excuse for that. Fatigue?

The trend of 5-7goal run ons has been going since Teague took over in 2019, basically every game. Whats the excuse for that?
Didnt train together? They had the whole of preseason with a fit list missing charlie only.

Fatigue in general in COVID fixturing is a furphy. The sydney game we won after a 4day break.

Additionally all other teams rotated their list, rested players and played the squad. What have we done with this, nothing. And behind the scenes Andrew Russell has been heavily criticised for it.

We were never a premiership threat this year, why was more time given to the kids to see what they can do in back end of this year?

Who will win our best first year player? Pretty difficult given honey, cottrill, owies, philips barely got a run, none demanding a best22 spot.

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk
You need to read my post in the context of replying to Arrow's post below:


Has nothing to do with mentality, it is coaching and structure

Could players be frustrated with aspects of the gameplan? Absolutely

But you can't have mental weakness one weak and then mental strength the following after winning, coming from behind after being 7 goals down

In fact that suggests the side believes that it can beat anyone on a given day

This starts with Teague


I was simply stating that there can be a mental aspect to poor performance, rather than it all being on the coaching and structures. We quite obviously came out flat - more mentally than physically - as we won the second half by 5 goals.
 

FRUMPY

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 18, 2006
18,107
18,863
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
You need to read my post in the context of replying to Arrow's post below:


Has nothing to do with mentality, it is coaching and structure

Could players be frustrated with aspects of the gameplan? Absolutely

But you can't have mental weakness one weak and then mental strength the following after winning, coming from behind after being 7 goals down

In fact that suggests the side believes that it can beat anyone on a given day

This starts with Teague


I was simply stating that there can be a mental aspect to poor performance, rather than it all being on the coaching and structures. We quite obviously came out flat - more mentally than physically - as we won the second half by 5 goals.
You can be a mentally weak sides who doesnt handle the pressure of being favorites or when playing must win games etc. This is why i think we are a mentally weak side/club. Does it happen all the time? no. But alot of the time, we lose the important games or must win games - and its not necessarily the losing, its the way we lose - uncompetitive, soft, error riddled, fumbling method - which shows they are feeling the pressure or not switched on - mental aspects.

You can show mental weakness and strength in the same game. Mentally weak in that we arent switched on from the start and only get going when the game is almost out of reach (mentally strong to compete late and not get blown away - which is something we have improved).

Then we can come out mentally switched on, get a great lead and then mentally sh*t ourselves because we dont know how to handle leads (hawthorn last year and this year, geelong this year (luck to hold on, port adelaide etc.). We fail time and time again to kick that goal that puts the foot on their throat and finishes the game.

Alot of it is due to the playing list age and experience, but FMD, its been happening for 7-8 years now. We should be getting better at it.

And finally, its not all mental weakness/strength, its also coaching, strategy, the oppsition (and their mental strength/weakness etc).
 

Earls Smother

Team Captain
Oct 4, 2019
407
1,050
AFL Club
Carlton
You can be a mentally weak sides who doesnt handle the pressure of being favorites or when playing must win games etc. This is why i think we are a mentally weak side/club. Does it happen all the time? no. But alot of the time, we lose the important games or must win games - and its not necessarily the losing, its the way we lose - uncompetitive, soft, error riddled, fumbling method - which shows they are feeling the pressure or not switched on - mental aspects.

You can show mental weakness and strength in the same game. Mentally weak in that we arent switched on from the start and only get going when the game is almost out of reach (mentally strong to compete late and not get blown away - which is something we have improved).

Then we can come out mentally switched on, get a great lead and then mentally sh*t ourselves because we dont know how to handle leads (hawthorn last year and this year, geelong this year (luck to hold on, port adelaide etc.). We fail time and time again to kick that goal that puts the foot on their throat and finishes the game.

Alot of it is due to the playing list age and experience, but FMD, its been happening for 7-8 years now. We should be getting better at it.

And finally, its not all mental weakness/strength, its also coaching, strategy, the oppsition (and their mental strength/weakness etc).
We agree yeah?

I'm like Macca43 in that I don't like the term "mentally weak". If we have drafted/traded players that are inherently mentally weak people then we have totally stuffed up.

We are mentally inconsistent, but we are kind of predictable in the way we are. As you said, we don't handle being favorites, we often don't start well, we don't hold big leads well. Some of this is probably nerves/anxiety. We also just generally lack belief after years of being sh*t.

It's the argument that none of our problems are mental - they are all coach and structure based - that everyone except one poster disagrees with.
 

FRUMPY

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 18, 2006
18,107
18,863
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
We agree yeah?

I'm like Macca43 in that I don't like the term "mentally weak". If we have drafted/traded players that are inherently mentally weak people then we have totally stuffed up.

We are mentally inconsistent, but we are kind of predictable in the way we are. As you said, we don't handle being favorites, we often don't start well, we don't hold big leads well. Some of this is probably nerves/anxiety. We also just generally lack belief after years of being sh*t.

It's the argument that none of our problems are mental - they are all coach and structure based - that everyone except one poster agrees with.
Yeah we agree, was just explaining my points to whoever wants to read them haha. I call the club mentally weak, not individuals necessarily. Stems back to the days we tanked for picks.
 

thylacine60

Make me an Admin!
Jun 4, 2006
99,532
169,619
Footscray
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Insert Token EPL Club
We agree yeah?

I'm like Macca43 in that I don't like the term "mentally weak". If we have drafted/traded players that are inherently mentally weak people then we have totally stuffed up.

We are mentally inconsistent, but we are kind of predictable in the way we are. As you said, we don't handle being favorites, we often don't start well, we don't hold big leads well. Some of this is probably nerves/anxiety. We also just generally lack belief after years of being sh*t.

It's the argument that none of our problems are mental - they are all coach and structure based - that everyone except one poster disagrees with.
I disagree.
 

KennyHuntersBlues

Club Legend
Jul 15, 2008
1,683
1,955
Blue Balls
AFL Club
Carlton
My Dad who is one eyed Carlton has seen every flag live since 68 and used to go to every single game when we lived in Melbourne including practice matches has had a major stroke tonight and may not make it through the next 48 hours 😭 Stuff you Blues you couldn’t let him enjoy one last win. 😡 I was hoping he would get to see one more flag, doesn’t look like it now 🙁
Sadly my Dad passed away last night
The most passionate one eyed Carlton supporter every year he was full of optimism
Lived through our greatest eras
Always says the 72 grand final was the best and most pure football game he ever saw
I know when we finally get that 17 you’ll be up there having a few beers and singing the song.
Da da da da da ...
 

blue healer

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 25, 2010
5,571
7,968
wagga wagga
AFL Club
Carlton
I don't know about anyone else but this mental argument is driving me....well, mental.
If we were a mentally weak side we'd have been beaten by upwards of 100 points in most of the games we've given leads away. We didn't in any of them, is this not a mental strength?

My theory behind the slow starts is that we are not a particularly quick side and the few quick players we have are not super defensively (Martin does get a passmark here). Because of this we are often jumped early, we forget our gameplan and revert to panic. If you listen to Teague's presser he says we were getting beaten on the outside so tried to go more inside which gave further opportunities to the oppos outside players, without seeing the game this makes some sense to me.

When the heat goes out of the game the speed differential is lessened and we're able to go back to our original structures, tweak the gameplan if needed and get back into the game. Unfortunately in some cases it's too late but I must admit a comeback is exciting. Like backing a horse that comes from last to win.

Just my theory because I don't think our problem is coaching or mental attitude.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

blue healer

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 25, 2010
5,571
7,968
wagga wagga
AFL Club
Carlton
Sadly my Dad passed away last night
The most passionate one eyed Carlton supporter every year he was full of optimism
Lived through our greatest eras
Always says the 72 grand final was the best and most pure football game he ever saw
I know when we finally get that 17 you’ll be up there having a few beers and singing the song.
Da da da da da ...
So sorry to hear this, commiserations.
 

Graffy4242

Club Legend
Apr 1, 2010
2,104
3,700
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
We are 5 wins and 3 losses in games decided by under 10 points.
I think the interesting take away from those 8 games is how many of them did we either give the opposition a massive head start or did we have a big lead and have it pegged back???

I think only the Port and Bombers games would not fall into either of those 2 categories.

Which then exposes the primary issue of allowing teams 4-7 unanswered goals.

If we solve that as a minimum we are are 4 win better team at least. My concern is that we have known this is an issue for 6-8 weeks now and NOTHING seems to have changed. That unfortunately is all on Teague and the Assistants.
 

murphster

Premiership Player
Oct 2, 2005
3,781
8,980
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Steelers,Dodgers,Casey Stoner
Alright let me throw something out there and Arrow lets see if this bridges the gap between your side and others....

I am fortunate enough to be very good friends with a former tennis player who won multiple major titles. Through him I also was lucky to associate with a number of other tennis pros. I remember asking (this was probably 15 years ago) why do you practice so much? Like these guys hit balls 5-6 hours a day every day...His response (and others gave the same answer) - it is all about muscle memory. So you learn to just play on auto pilot. Your body knows when there is a short ball you come in and hit the forehand down the line and set for the easy volley. You train hard so you play on instinct and that removes the number of errors.

Can we agree that we perform at an A grade level fleetingly because we don't have the continued learned experience yet? We need to practice more and more together, get games into the group so when you hear the call you know to handball forward or kick to the top of the square because that is where xyz will be. We are at the stage of thinking through each move, rather than it being muscle memory yet.
Precisely what is happening, our skills by foot at the beginning of the season were sharp but without the regular heavy training loads they have slowly dropped away, for a team like ours these sessions are invaluable in sharpening and honing not only skills but game style and connection as well, it’s no coincidence that the more experienced sides have got stronger as the year went on, to get the growth we got out of the team in such a heavily altered season is a bonus and should not be overlooked.
 

murphster

Premiership Player
Oct 2, 2005
3,781
8,980
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Steelers,Dodgers,Casey Stoner
I think the interesting take away from those 8 games is how many of them did we either give the opposition a massive head start or did we have a big lead and have it pegged back???

I think only the Port and Bombers games would not fall into either of those 2 categories.

Which then exposes the primary issue of allowing teams 4-7 unanswered goals.

If we solve that as a minimum we are are 4 win better team at least. My concern is that we have known this is an issue for 6-8 weeks now and NOTHING seems to have changed. That unfortunately is all on Teague and the Assistants.
And the inability to train to work out the kinks.
 

murphster

Premiership Player
Oct 2, 2005
3,781
8,980
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Steelers,Dodgers,Casey Stoner
It’s disingenuous to suggest that we weren’t pretty fortunate in a few of those.

If you’re pleased with our efforts this year, that’s fine. I’m not.
It’s all so disingenuous to suggest we weren’t pretty unfortunate to lose a couple of those as well, namely Port and Melbourne you can’t pick and choose based on supporting your argument.
 

murphster

Premiership Player
Oct 2, 2005
3,781
8,980
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Steelers,Dodgers,Casey Stoner
It's not just the lapses (5-7 goal streaks against) that hurt, we don't put teams away when we're on top.
I think this just comes down to forward structure, we set up how we did against Geelong, Dogs and the second half against Crows we will have the set up to score heavily when on top, this is fairly easy to fix with proper training loads and a full pre season, plus the return of Charlie.
 

murphster

Premiership Player
Oct 2, 2005
3,781
8,980
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Steelers,Dodgers,Casey Stoner
Fitness has never been a priority for the McLovin boys. Both gifted, Jeremy seems to back himself significantly more often in a very different role.
We saw in the second half against the Crows the game structure that suits McGovern and when he plays his best footy, a crowded forward 50 and high press is not the set up for McGovern nor will it be for Charlie which gives me hope that it will revert to the set up of late last year when we run out in Rd 1 2021.
 

murphster

Premiership Player
Oct 2, 2005
3,781
8,980
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Steelers,Dodgers,Casey Stoner
We would have seen this coming and staffed the games accordingly. Fyfe has rested forward, loads of players managed, Neale and Pendlebury are freaks with deep midfield support, players have ‘enjoyed’ resting while injured like DeGoey and Treloar, Bryce hasn’t played anything

You cannot tell me that the likes of Murphy can’t have been more effective on Sunday-if they were rested in other games and we trusted some of the young fellas to lift. This was a failure of the MC that I hope they learn from. There is every likelihood that 2021 will be COVID influenced or that the AFL will fall in love with the Footy Festival idea.
I think we had enough fresh players in the side on the weekend the problem was we didn’t use them through the middle till the second half, Gibbo, Cunners and even Fish where all fresh and it showed come the 3rd qtr when we used there fresh legs to give us the run and carry and explosiveness that we so lacked in the first half with the players with heavy legs in Cripps, Ed, Murph etc. left to carry the load on tired legs.
 

Franc de Borges

Norm Smith Medallist
Feb 5, 2010
6,398
8,495
Behind sunglasses
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Tottenham Hotspur, Australia
It’s all so disingenuous to suggest we weren’t pretty unfortunate to lose a couple of those as well, namely Port and Melbourne you can’t pick and choose based on supporting your argument.
We were unfortunate against Port.

Against Melbourne we gave up a seven goal start and didn't take our chances at the end; against GWS we stopped at 3/4 time with a 15 point lead. Neither of those were unlucky.
 

murphster

Premiership Player
Oct 2, 2005
3,781
8,980
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Steelers,Dodgers,Casey Stoner
You might not like to accept it, but I have it on very good authority that it came as a total surprise to Teague and everyone in senior positions at the Club. Some people don't care. Others took great exception to it. No need to overstate it - as I understand it the comment was made "this wasn't a good look" from a senior person to the players. Teague also said he found it surprising and it is clear from the press conference he did not agree with it. But no one's career is being ended over it and there is no bad blood. That is internally, externally well a few donors have complained, others have praised it.

My personal view as I said is that it was a bad look and I would have hit the roof if I was in charge. Many others would think that is totally unreasonable and I understand that point of view.

It is done. Everyone moves on.
How could it possibly have been a surprise, I’m locked away in my home with minimal contact with anyone and no contact with the club and yet I heard they were planning on chairing Gibbs off after the game, so how could anyone at Carlton possibly of been surprised by it.
 

Sin City

Brownlow Medallist
May 29, 2009
29,058
9,420
Winterfell
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
LA Lakers
Sadly my Dad passed away last night
The most passionate one eyed Carlton supporter every year he was full of optimism
Lived through our greatest eras
Always says the 72 grand final was the best and most pure football game he ever saw
I know when we finally get that 17 you’ll be up there having a few beers and singing the song.
Da da da da da ...
Sorry for your loss KennyHuntersBlues
 

Top Bottom