Autopsy Rd 21 Blues luck dries up in the wet

Who played well for the Blues in Round 21 against the Tigers?


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KnaveyBlue

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Richmond plays with a sense of entitlement that seems to influence umpiring. Sorry, but that’s what I’m seeing.
They do, but the outcome is not unique to Richmond. It applies to all the 'big' teams, and it's down to human psychology. Umpires adjudicating powerful teams with big crowds feel increased pressure to reward them, particularly if said team is playing at home. They've done a few studies around it, albeit in relation to soccer.

The solution? Keep battling away until we become a power club again.
 

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T2B_

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They receive an armchair ride because the posts are glowingly positive when they are average footballers who I doubt can take us to top 4.
Plenty of average footballers end up in top 4, and even the big dance. Sometimes bog average footballers even have their moment to shine in moments in a GF. You won't have 22 All Australians in one footy team. It's all about balance.

I'd agree about the likes of Lang who just constantly look not up to it. Deluca is unproven as of yet, but Gibbons has done enough this year (after largely even being played in not his ideal position) to suggest he can be a genuinely handy player until someone good enough comes along to replace him.
 

PP34

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I saw many instances where Lang was buried in packs. Fighting for the ball in the rain and that for me is playing for the jumper. If he wasn't he wouldn't get picked. Or do you reckon you know more than the match commitee?
You could be the softest footballer ever and be buried in a pack. It means nothing.

Lang attacks the contest with no intensity and hardly does a thing on a weekly basis.

The only reason he’s getting games is because of our lack of depth being exposed with guys like Cuningham being injured. And are we talking about the same match committee who has made numerous blunders over the last two years that have left us behind the ball going into games?

Lang is a dud. Shouldn’t be getting games. I won’t defend s**t footballers who cost us when they play.
 

JohnnyFontane90

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And Adelaide lost. WC got dominated by a substandard Collingwood for 2 and 1/2 quarters, off the back of their midfield being inadequate, and only one because a mid drifted forwards and kicked a clutch goal. Hawks cultivated an innovative kick/mark system precisely as I described, whilst also possessing a clearance coach who changed the face of modern AFL clearances whilst also being one of the best teams ever.

Again, as much as I'd love to shoot for being one of the best teams ever, it isn't a realistic prospect is it?

The issue is not mobility, it is in style and speed. If you have a set of talls that can play smaller, that is one thing; Cripps is what I'm talking about here, because he's KPP height but plays as a standard midfielder, albeit one tall and strong enough to always get the arms free. Adam Tomlinson is another of the kind that I'm talking about. Harry is better than average for his height, but is not the equivalent of a small around the ball and neither is Charlie or Gov.

Firstly, Charlie doesn't replace Cas because Charlie doesn't ruck. At the moment, nor does Harry, and nor should he. He's a full forward.

Right now, Cas is a better tap ruckman than Kreuzer is. Kreuzer is the no. 1 ruck, but he's also injury prone and just back from injury altogether. Cas' value as a player is entirely down to his flexibility, and playing him as a CHF is poor, IMO. As a ruck, he's coming very good of late.

And AFL's an outdoor game. The institution can sanitise the s**t out of it all they like, but they can't stop the rain or the winter.


This is certainly true, but it's as much an indication of coaching style as anything else that we have gone far better under Teague with a smaller squad than a) we did under Bolton with like players, or b) how we've gone under Teague with a fit squad. That, out there on Sunday, was fairly close to the best 22, yet you'd be struggling to say that we produced our best footy at any point. Even if we introduce Charlie for Cas - which, as I stated, is a bad idea due to that leaving a fresh from rehab Kreuzer to take the solo rucking - it doesn't impact on how tall we are across the board. You can carry a certain amount of talls, especially down back, but ahead of the ball you need to be able to move the ball quickly and with a bit of dare, and talls either have to be at the end point - where the ball is received prior to the shot - or they have to be as capable as smalls when the ball hits the ground. To date, this isn't happening.

I'd love to keep our players together, to win with them as they grow from the kids we drafted into men. But it isn't realistic to keep them all in house, not with the level of talent we've accumulated and not with the degree to which our gameplan juxtaposes with our list makeup. Something needs to give, and unfortunately you will not get value for Kerr, TDK, JSOS, Kennedy or Gov. Won't happen.
This small ball vs tall ball debate is certainly interesting. The recent evidence of successful teams indicates that really isn't a right way or wrong to construct a team but i think we need to play to our strengths. If you haven't got quality tall fowards then small ball is always better, but we happen to have 3 have gifted athetlic talls so i think we can pull it off.

In modern football with teams setting up their zones, one of those big tall forwards invariably gets drawn up the field to provide a bail out down the line kick. If you only have 2 tall forwards in the side then if one pushes up ground to provide that option then that leaves the other forward outnumbered in the forward line. This was very evident vs west coast last week when harry was pushing up the field leaving cas hoplessly outnumbered inside 50.

In the wet it's obviously a different story and 3 talls doesn't work. But we've played 20 games this year and 4 have been wet. And September tends not to be wet so maybe being disadvantaged by wet football isn't a good enough reason to throw a strategy out.

Much of this debate depends on what TDK ends up being but the plan for him right now is to replace kreuzer. If it turns out he's a great tall forward and we can find another good ruck somewhere else then maybe we can entertain the idea of trading harry. But right now i think it's not an option.
 

Gethelred

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This small ball vs tall ball debate is certainly interesting. The recent evidence of successful teams indicates that really isn't a right way or wrong to construct a team but i think we need to play to our strengths. If you haven't got quality tall fowards then small ball is always better, but we happen to have 3 have gifted athetlic talls so i think we can pull it off.

In modern football with teams setting up their zones, one of those big tall forwards invariably gets drawn up the field to provide a bail out down the line kick. If you only have 2 tall forwards in the side then if one pushes up ground to provide that option then that leaves the other forward outnumbered in the forward line. This was very evident vs west coast last week when harry was pushing up the field leaving cas hoplessly outnumbered inside 50.

In the wet it's obviously a different story and 3 talls doesn't work. But we've played 20 games this year and 4 have been wet. And September tends not to be wet so maybe being disadvantaged by wet football isn't a good enough reason to throw a strategy out.

Much of this debate depends on what TDK ends up being but the plan for him right now is to replace kreuzer. If it turns out he's a great tall forward and we can find another good ruck somewhere else then maybe we can entertain the idea of trading harry. But right now i think it's not an option.
Harry isn't the one I'd be looking to trade, but other than that, that's a fair post.
 

PP34

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And when the ball is coming up his end a million times at a hundred mile an hour for the last hundred years of course he's going to fluff it at times..
And it doesn’t matter at all because he saves the team so many times. He saved a number of goals yesterday with his fearlessness and footy smarts. Like he has for years down back.
 

Aphrodite

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This small ball vs tall ball debate is certainly interesting. The recent evidence of successful teams indicates that really isn't a right way or wrong to construct a team but i think we need to play to our strengths. If you haven't got quality tall fowards then small ball is always better, but we happen to have 3 have gifted athetlic talls so i think we can pull it off.

In modern football with teams setting up their zones, one of those big tall forwards invariably gets drawn up the field to provide a bail out down the line kick. If you only have 2 tall forwards in the side then if one pushes up ground to provide that option then that leaves the other forward outnumbered in the forward line. This was very evident vs west coast last week when harry was pushing up the field leaving cas hoplessly outnumbered inside 50.

In the wet it's obviously a different story and 3 talls doesn't work. But we've played 20 games this year and 4 have been wet. And September tends not to be wet so maybe being disadvantaged by wet football isn't a good enough reason to throw a strategy out.

Much of this debate depends on what TDK ends up being but the plan for him right now is to replace kreuzer. If it turns out he's a great tall forward and we can find another good ruck somewhere else then maybe we can entertain the idea of trading harry. But right now i think it's not an option.
Harry isn't the one I'd be looking to trade, but other than that, that's a fair post.


Take it to the List Management thread please guys!
 

PP34

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No it didnt lose the game. Missing our chances to goal and a few turnover kicks to give them very soft goals is why we lost. Same as last week.
Yes it was a major reason we lost the game.

The Tigers get soft goals out of opposition turnovers via their extra defender intercepting. It’s how they win games of footy.

We played right into their hands in the first half by having our loose player at the back of the stoppage and panicking with footy in hand any time the loose or another player got the footy.
 

PP34

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How many times did he read the play and get into position to get those kicks?
Well he has a point. Plowman invites far too much pressure with his indecisiveness leading to missed kicks or a teammate getting the footy under immense pressure leading to a turnover.
 

Opine

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They do, but the outcome is not unique to Richmond. It applies to all the 'big' teams, and it's down to human psychology. Umpires adjudicating powerful teams with big crowds feel increased pressure to reward them, particularly if said team is playing at home. They've done a few studies around it, albeit in relation to soccer.

The solution? Keep battling away until we become a power club again.
Agreed. But, I don't subscribe to the notion that we needed to surrender our arrogance. We have most of the elements necessary to warrant a sense of entitlement. We already are a power club; we just need to remember to act like it.
 

Blue and Blue

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Soft players playing a soft style don’t win grand finals, I’m sorry but this is just pure fantasy, we got a lesson on Sunday on how to win in the wet.
Lol turn it up. Won the 2017 finals series by an average of about 50 points, were red hot flag favourites last year and will probably win it this year. You don't get that good by playing soft, gutless football and trailing into the contest.

They taught our boys a lesson in almost all areas of the ground.
Now listen here you varmints.
I am a one eyed blue. That leaves zero room for any of this type of talk. Repeat after me.
The other teams are all scum and weak as water.
Much better...well done. You keep your fair and reasoned arguments to yourselves.
Stick it up yer jumper......;)
 

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KnaveyBlue

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Agreed. But, I don't subscribe to the notion that we needed to surrender our arrogance. We have most of the elements necessary to warrant a sense of entitlement. We already are a power club; we just need to remember to act like it.
Sadly I reckon we have a lot of ground to make up before we're considered a power club again. We'll have to win for a long time before the footy community (including umpires) no longer regard us as losers - both consciously and subconsciously.
 

PP34

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Jacob Weitering is a very good football player. The days of Tom Lynch tormenting this club are over (as long as Jacob is healthy). Now stop ******* complaining to the umpire, Tom, you come across like a petulant child.

Also we are too nice a football team. I saw some good signs with regards to this like Setterfield raising his elbow when being tackled, well done Will. Has a bit of mongrel this kid, wait till he gets stronger.

I want to see more knees and elbows in opponents (not unfairly and in play of course). Mixed in with some nasty tackling to hurt. This is the next step.
Yeah I thought there were numerous opportunities to make a few of their players earn their kicks and we didn’t.

It’s part of the next step for sure. Right now only Cripps and a few others do it.
 

Faz 2000

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hahahah - the more things progress the more people wake up to the fact that the #1 ingredient in successful sides is MONGREL. :thumbsu: :moustache:
Personally I thought it was great we got into plenty of push and shove with the premiership favourites. We were out-played on the day, but not pushed around or bullied. Having the odd fracas got us going, I thought.

Daisy and Jack getting into eachother was hilarious. Two of the biggest brats in the league*, taking great pride in annoying the absolutely sh1t out of one another. No intent to hurt or do anything stupid, and they'd probably laugh about it afterwards over a beer... but inside the white lines they're irritating jerks.

* with respect to Toby Greene and Scott Thompson
 

T2B_

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Yeah I thought there were numerous opportunities to make a few of their players earn their kicks and we didn’t.

It’s part of the next step for sure. Right now only Cripps and a few others do it.
And that's a "non-aggravated" Cripps.

It's a thing of beauty when he genuinely gets furious and goes all Hulk-smash. Sometimes it ends up him giving away unnecessary frees, but he puts the fear of God into opposition players.
 

JustaBattler

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Personally I thought it was great we got into plenty of push and shove with the premiership favourites. We were out-played on the day, but not pushed around or bullied. Having the odd fracas got us going, I thought.

Daisy and Jack getting into eachother was hilarious. Two of the biggest brats in the league*, taking great pride in annoying the absolutely sh1t out of one another. No intent to hurt or do anything stupid, and they'd probably laugh about it afterwards over a beer... but inside the white lines they're irritating jerks.

* with respect to Toby Greene and Scott Thompson
No use in talking about what real mongrel is on this forum - it certainly isn't PC BS and 'flying the flag' cream puffery.
 

Antonio BlueVein

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Him in against WC would've changed the whole dynamic of the thing, I agree. All of a sudden, they've got to be mindful of a deeper threat than one of Casboult or Harry.

Again, that relies on us innovating a way to keep all three working together instead of independently, which is something I'd be all for. But AFL coaches are rarely innovative, and rarely do so unless to compensate for injury created weaknesses.
I reckon one of H, Gov and Charles are mostly injured.

Gov can swing back

The 3 of them are about as mobile a 3 pronged forward line as you’d get. Jmo

Throw in a Papley sort and Davey Cuningham with a resting mid and 🤤🤤🤤🤤

Again omo but I wouldn’t go trading one of those 3

And I’m tipping SOS wouldn’t either.

But an interesting discussion nonetheless 👍🏽

Anyways back on topic

We wuz robbed, Tigs are dirty and so on and so forth 😋
 

Blue and Blue

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Making sure if your opponent gets a kick it hurts him. They have to earn every one.
Its making a contest when they dont expect one.
If he marks the ball his fingers hurt from the punch that almost spoilt it.
Its not celebrating too hard after a goal when your 5 behind.
Its a lot of little things that mean No Quarter.

Its an attitude that has to be learned the hard way like the old days when your first game of footy you copped a whack and if you got up didn't whinge and evened the tab later on you got begrudging respect from your peers on both sides.
 

Robbo's my hero

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hahahah - the more things progress the more people wake up to the fact that the #1 ingredient in successful sides is MONGREL. :thumbsu: :moustache:
That’s what I liked about yesterday. Our back half has plenty of mongrel. I loved how we got under the skin of Riewoldt and Lynch yesterday. Imagine saying Jones and Weitering have mongrel two seasons ago.
 

JustaBattler

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That’s what I liked about yesterday. Our back half has plenty of mongrel. I loved how we got under the skin of Riewoldt and Lynch yesterday. Imagine saying Jones and Weitering have mongrel two seasons ago.
Jonesy could do with using more of his size and strength in a nasty way - Weitering has always been a brave player and his class is showing again - but he needs to add some hurt factor as well as 'just' smarts - but I am seeing progress ...takes time for a teenager to grow body and confidence and will to impose themselves - don't know if Weiters or Jones will ever have the physical hurt factor of the famous Brisbane defenders or Scarlett ot SOS.
 

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