Autopsy Rd 3 Insipid Loss to Carlton (Be Civil)

[theGav56]

Of course the coach and the list manager are two very different roles, but every senior coach will have a big say in who comes to the club or not, so clearly Ross would have signed off on bringing in Hogan, just as Bell did too.

I am certain the coach would have been saying get me a forward. But it isn’t his job to do the due diligence, which we have been assured was thorough. That is the fundamental issue with the Hogan trade.

 

[theGav56]

Also important is making the aspirations achievable.

I think finals is/was achievable. We have lost two games to sides we should be able to compete with. The biggest disappointment with those losses is that it looks to me like we were out coached in both. And we are talking about Goodwin and Teague here, guys I would have been concerned about if they were shortlisted for the role when we were looking.

 

[Nodgey]

I am certain the coach would have been saying get me a forward. But it isn’t his job to do the due diligence, which we have been assured was thorough. That is the fundamental issue with the Hogan trade.

I’m not so sure. The due diligence initially had us pulling out of the trade. Then something happened to cause a 180 degree turnaround. I’d love to know what happened behind closed doors.

 

[ilikepotatoes]

Nice of Gary Lyon to call out Betts’s blocking. Pay it both ways, ump.

I genuinely reckon the umps are incentivised to let things go if it creates goals. It's bullshit.

 

[WaywardSonSon]

I genuinely reckon the umps are incentivised to let things go if it creates goals. It's bullshit.

They're also incentivised to NOT pay free-kicks within certain teams' attacking fifty metre arcs, if said free-kick would result in a goal!

 

[blue shark]

I’m not so sure. The due diligence initially had us pulling out of the trade. Then something happened to cause a 180 degree turnaround. I’d love to know what happened behind closed doors.

Imagine a forward line with Naughton, King, Fyfe, Sturt, Walters.
That’s not even considering Tabs,
Lobb.
Instead lets just imagine kicking 10-12 goals for a win and defending that score.

 

[arsesmart]

I’m not so sure. The due diligence initially had us pulling out of the trade. Then something happened to cause a 180 degree turnaround. I’d love to know what happened behind closed doors.

That was just a negotiating gambit. The careful wording of the statement they released at the time makes it pretty clear that's what it was.

 

[Wilksyy]

I genuinely reckon the umps are incentivised to let things go if it creates goals. It's bullshit.

They mentioned this on Footy Classified and the numbers suggest (still early days) you could be onto something.

 

[Dockers v Channel7West]

They mentioned this on Footy Classified and the numbers suggest (still early days) you could be onto something.

We need to expoit it then with blocks and holds, although the directive is not probably designed for non victorian clubs against vic clubs

 

[gungho]

I don’t deny that members of the WA media hated Ross and would take opportunities to stick the knife in (it’s one of the reasons I can’t stand Tim Gossage) but I think what you’ve written here is downplaying what was alleged.

Multiple sources including the Herald Sun, The ABC, The West Australian, The Age and Fox Sports all reported on this. The allegation was that Ross made the comment directly to the female employee (plus others) and then proceeded to continually harass her during a work party. Subsequently, she was paid a 6 figure sum to keep her mouth shut about it.

He was one of the heads of our club. For him to behave this way towards a subordinate is not the same as a group of women commenting on a mans arms or bum. We should expect better. I don’t like it and I’m glad that he is no longer leading Fremantle. It’s fine if you don’t think that it’s a big deal but I do.

*shrug*

The key word in all is the one you have used: "allegation". The truth is that neither of us know what happened at that party because we weren't there, but my gut says if Ross had form in sexually harassing staff then it wouldn't be confined to one incident at one party with one person.

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

That concerns me, and once we were out looking for another coach is why I would have preferred an experienced coach, not that there was one available, but Lyon also wasn’t available...

The recent draft after Longmuir’s first season saw us draft HBFs, so I’m really hoping it is not a sign of what turning over the list is going to feature during his time.

If the club actually had resolved it’s injury and player management issues we should be contending for finals. Finals is my pass mark for this year. Not achieving that isn’t a coach sacking question. But it would be a major disappointment. Our two losses this year both have coach related question marks against them, especially selection and strategy related.

Brad Scott. I'm assuming he had no interest because it was an open recruitment, but it would have been interesting process to compare him against Longmuir.

 

[Madas]

Nice of Gary Lyon to call out Betts’s blocking. Pay it both ways, ump.

I noticed this and others
I think it has particular effect on a young group of players
When inconsistent bullshit calls keep getting paid against them they kind of " stop trying " for fear of getting pinged .
I know you all know what I'm trying to say , it's that momentum killer that's been discussed many times.
It's like the art of playing for frees is now part of the better clubs repertoire.
It's the greatest gift from Sam Mitchell to the Eagles IMHO

 

[Madas]

We need to expoit it then with blocks and holds, although the directive is not probably designed for non victorian clubs against vic clubs

Nah it works for WC

 

[MadEyeEmmy]

The key word in all is the one you have used: "allegation". The truth is that neither of us know what happened at that party because we weren't there, but my gut says if Ross had form in sexually harassing staff then it wouldn't be confined to one incident at one party with one person.

Sure, it’s an allegation. You are well within your rights to believe what you like. But seeing as this isn’t a courtroom and ‘innocent until proven guilty’ doesn’t apply, I’m going to choose to believe what this woman has alleged. Just as your gut feel is that it’s all bullshit, my gut feel is that organisations don’t give massive payouts to former employees for no reason, nor do they usually make them sign NDA’s unless something damaging to the brand has gone down.

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

I don't think you needed to add in the personal insult to Lyon... no one here knows what did or did not happen. If it is what you are alluding too, then Bell and the president and most of the board should go as well for allowing him to stay and helping cover it up. As to the NDA, I have said this before and will do again, they are not proof of anything sinister. I consult for clients who have each employee sign them and every vendor even if they are providing a simple service like gyprocking etc.

As to the rest of your post... I agree in part that talking about him less would be good. We shouldn't re-write history though, he was a great coach and gave our team the most success it has had by miles.

I do think we traded one defensive coach for another... not that I mind that. I also think that the reasons for not criticising Justin would not be accepted if Ross was the coach. Having said all that... I think we will win this week and be 2-2. We have to win at least three away to get close to finals. That is the challenge now.

IIRC, the agreement reached involved some type of payout to the injured party, which puts it on a different footing to a NDA signed between service provider and client. Although the details haven't been made public, we had a senior manager who paid what appears to have been a relatively substantial sum of money to a someone who alleged sexual harassment. This was a terrible stain on the club.

I agree with you re the complicity of others. Its is to the eternal shame of the then Football General Manager, CEO, and Board that they did not force his removal at the time of the incident.

 

[SHill Shall]

Sure, it’s an allegation. You are well within your rights to believe what you like. But seeing as this isn’t a courtroom and ‘innocent until proven guilty’ doesn’t apply, I’m going to choose to believe what this woman has alleged. Just as your gut feel is that it’s all bullshit, my gut feel is that organisations don’t give massive payouts to former employees for no reason, nor do they usually make them sign NDA’s unless something damaging to the brand has gone down.

Well you’re naive in the extreme then. Large corporates routinely settle employment law cases without going to court simply because it’s the expedient thing to do - even though they believe the issue is with the employee. Fighting the case will be more expensive, risk undue attention and distract managers who have more value adding things to focus on.

 

[Purple Jesus]

Well you’re naive in the extreme then. Large corporates routinely settle employment law cases without going to court simply because it’s the expedient thing to do - even though they believe the issue is with the employee. Fighting the case will be more expensive, risk undue attention and distract managers who have more value adding things to focus on.

Neither of you know what actually happened so this is all pointless speculation.

 

[eastfreo75]

I genuinely reckon the umps are incentivised to let things go if it creates goals. It's bullshit.

Two things.

Umpires ball watch.

AFL would rather the Blues make the finals than Freo due to dollars made.

Watch the amount of free kicks we get when we had the ball anyway in non dangerous positions.

 

[salim malik]

Yeah you really called me out. Well done. I was giving my opinion on Ross Lyon based on well known facts that have been widely reported by pretty much every major news outlet. Look I’m sure you felt special because Lyon said hello to you at training once, but that doesn’t mean you need to be deliberately obtuse regarding the faults of the man and attack anyone who dares to speak out about it.

Yes I sure did enjoy our success in 2013, does that mean I have to continue to pine for Ross Lyon for the rest of my life?

Get a grip. He ain’t coming back.

I,'ve moved on from Lyon, you obviously haven't. Longmuir is the coach now , let's concentrate on what's happening at the club now. Those well known facts you are banging on about Lyon where rumours.
I haven't been to training for a long time. Lyon didn't say hello to me personally, another rumour .
How many more rumours do you push as fact.?

 

[gungho]

Sure, it’s an allegation. You are well within your rights to believe what you like. But seeing as this isn’t a courtroom and ‘innocent until proven guilty’ doesn’t apply, I’m going to choose to believe what this woman has alleged. Just as your gut feel is that it’s all bullshit, my gut feel is that organisations don’t give massive payouts to former employees for no reason, nor do they usually make them sign NDA’s unless something damaging to the brand has gone down.

Ok, lets assume he's guilty. So he made a comment about a girls breast size at a party. So he then (according to you) followed that up with another comment to the girl that was something along the lines of a joke gone wrong. So what? Was there alcohol involved? Did he just have a massive argument with somebody else a moment before to put him in a bad mood? Was his intent to make a joke rather than to hurt somebodies feelings and it was misunderstood? Did the girl say something equally sexist, or rude to him earlier in the day and this was an attempt at a comeback?
The point is with isolated incidents between two people it is very hard to know exactly what was said, exactly the context in which it was said, exactly what was the intent of the person who said it, and exactly what happened before he said it.
Now, if another female came out and said he sexually abused her during her time working for the Dockers we'd be able to see a pattern of behaviour, but at this stage we have 1 incident at 1 party with 1 person with no idea about the context in which it was said.
NDA's are also pretty common operating procedures in organisations and not admissions of guilt. (I've signed one myself)

 

[dockerfemme]

Ok, lets assume he's guilty. So he made a comment about a girls breast size at a party. So he then (according to you) followed that up with another comment to the girl that was something along the lines of a joke gone wrong. So what? Was there alcohol involved? Did he just have a massive argument with somebody else a moment before to put him in a bad mood? Was his intent to make a joke rather than to hurt somebodies feelings and it was misunderstood? Did the girl say something equally sexist, or rude to him earlier in the day and this was an attempt at a comeback?
The point is with isolated incidents between two people it is very hard to know exactly what was said, exactly the context in which it was said, exactly what was the intent of the person who said it, and exactly what happened before he said it.
Now, if another female came out and said he sexually abused her during her time working for the Dockers we'd be able to see a pattern of behaviour, but at this stage we have 1 incident at 1 party with 1 person with no idea about the context in which it was said.
NDA's are also pretty common operating procedures in organisations and not admissions of guilt. (I've signed one myself)

I am not commenting on what may or may not have occurred at the club. This is just a general comment.

It is really inappropriate for a group of senior men at a work do to discuss an employees breasts. It doesn’t matter what the context is, or if drink is involved. It is equally inappropriate for a group of senior women at a work do to discuss a man‘s trouser bulge.

Either of these things are not excusable and should not happen.

 

[CapitalA]

I,'ve moved on from Lyon, you obviously haven't. Longmuir is the coach now , let's concentrate on what's happening at the club now. Those well known facts you are banging on about Lyon where rumours.
I haven't been to training for a long time. Lyon didn't say hello to me personally, another rumour .
How many more rumours do you push as fact.?

You claim you have moved on from Lyon but you clearly haven't by your use of language around the subject.

 

[MadEyeEmmy]

Well you’re naive in the extreme then. Large corporates routinely settle employment law cases without going to court simply because it’s the expedient thing to do - even though they believe the issue is with the employee. Fighting the case will be more expensive, risk undue attention and distract managers who have more value adding things to focus on.

Lol someone is naive here and it ain’t me!

 

[MadEyeEmmy]

I,'ve moved on from Lyon, you obviously haven't. Longmuir is the coach now , let's concentrate on what's happening at the club now. Those well known facts you are banging on about Lyon where rumours.
I haven't been to training for a long time. Lyon didn't say hello to me personally, another rumour .
How many more rumours do you push as fact.?

I agree, let’s concentrate on what’s happening now. I’ll try and stop my nasty rumour mongering

 

[MadEyeEmmy]

Ok, lets assume he's guilty. So he made a comment about a girls breast size at a party. So he then (according to you) followed that up with another comment to the girl that was something along the lines of a joke gone wrong. So what? Was there alcohol involved? Did he just have a massive argument with somebody else a moment before to put him in a bad mood? Was his intent to make a joke rather than to hurt somebodies feelings and it was misunderstood? Did the girl say something equally sexist, or rude to him earlier in the day and this was an attempt at a comeback?
The point is with isolated incidents between two people it is very hard to know exactly what was said, exactly the context in which it was said, exactly what was the intent of the person who said it, and exactly what happened before he said it.
Now, if another female came out and said he sexually abused her during her time working for the Dockers we'd be able to see a pattern of behaviour, but at this stage we have 1 incident at 1 party with 1 person with no idea about the context in which it was said.
NDA's are also pretty common operating procedures in organisations and not admissions of guilt. (I've signed one myself)

There is a lot to unpack here. It is never acceptable or appropriate for the head of an organisation to comment on an employee in a sexual manner, even if she had called him nasty names prior to that

Welcome to 2021.