Autopsy Rd 9 - If only games went for 1 quarter aka Still the Hawks bunnies

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blue healer

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 25, 2010
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Oh it's serious alright. No process followed and the players openly pushing for Teague. Judd had to retract his statement about trainer wheels etc
I think, perhaps. you misunderstood me. I didn't mean that the process was outrageous at all, I meant your post was outrageous if you believed that.

Apologies if it didn't come across that way.
 

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Arr0w

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Nov 13, 2015
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The usual suspects are out in force defending mediocrity, finding any and every excuse under sun to defend individual players or the team as a whole because we have slightly moved up off the bottom of the ladder 5 years into a rebuild.
I or no one I know has any faith that we can win a game no matter how far in front we are:

- up by 13 points with 7min left against Port and failed for the entire 7min to even get the ball out of our backline past the halfway point of the ground even though we had many clear possessions to do so
even worse yet, we were still up by a few points with 40 seconds to go and in possession of the ball ourselves yet let the opposition.

- Up 31-0 against the Hawks in the first quarter only to lose the game by 32 points by end of game.

- 42 points up against Geelong with less than a half to play and we only win because they miss some very easy shots at goal from directly in front.

- Up by 4 points with 50 seconds to go against the Bombers with the opposition having to kick out of our own goal square and only won because their players failed to make the distance by half a metre.

- Up by 5 goals against North who are second last on ladder and only iced the game with a few minutes left on the clock.


Add to the above that:

- down by 40 plus points against the Tigers before we finally woke up.

- down by 5-6 goals against demons before we finally woke up and then found a way to avoid winning the game when we were stream rolling over the top of them.

- down by 5-6 goals against the saints before we finally woke up.
Your contradictions are bewildering, not mention the cherry picking, perhaps we can talk about the Bombers and Dogs game too

It's not as if many games this season haven't followed a similar course

It seems "supporters" come out of hiding when there is an unexpected loss and or doesn't play out as per the same expectations
 

McConville

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Oct 5, 2007
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Welcome to the world of a developing side. Great wins, like Geelong at Geelong, Essendon and the Dogs, combined with sh*t losses like Melbourne, St.Kilda and last night. That's the journey of an up and coming side. While the result is unacceptable it will happen along the way. 10-10 under Teague is real progress. Inconsistency, that's caused sh*t losses, means we're not 13-7 or 14-6. Over time the inconsistency will hopefully disappear.
While this is somewhat true, I think the this game has shown up how we best progress forward with our structures/game plan and transitioning out the older players who most likely won't be in our next flag tilt/finding out who is going to make it into that side. A large group of players you would think would be a chance of being in that side aren't even getting a game, meaning they are missing a year of development due to the compromised season, at the expense of playing the Murphys/Simpsons/Newnes'/Moores etc. Melbourne also looked the goods 3 years ago. At the minute I'm seeing more Melbourne/Goodwin than Brisbane/Fagan. Brisbane are a very hard edged, well drilled side who are a big chance to win a flag this year. 4-5 years ago they were in a similar position us. They've drafted very well and Fagan has brought that Hawthorn mentality/structure to top them off. As a good example, look at the development of McCluagge (was labelled soft up here in his first couple of years), Berry, Witherden vs SPS, Setterfield, Fisher from the same draft. We did it the other way round. We brought in the Hawthorn structure when we probably were't quite ready and have now with a change in coach have become an attacking team with suspect defensive structures/lack of composure when the pressure is on. This is how we go from looking like superstars one minute to looking like a disorganised rabble the next. I believe this is more related to coaching at the minute rather than an up and down developing team. We need to develop our next premiership side which in my opinion has gone off course since mid last year.

The question is are we the next Melbourne or Brisbane?
 

HARKER

Hall of Famer
Oct 15, 2008
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The usual suspects are out in force defending mediocrity, finding any and every excuse under sun to defend individual players or the team as a whole because we have slightly moved up off the bottom of the ladder 5 years into a rebuild.
I or no one I know has any faith that we can win a game no matter how far in front we are:

- up by 13 points with 7min left against Port and failed for the entire 7min to even get the ball out of our backline past the halfway point of the ground even though we had many clear possessions to do so
even worse yet, we were still up by a few points with 40 seconds to go and in possession of the ball ourselves yet let the opposition.

- Up 31-0 against the Hawks in the first quarter only to lose the game by 32 points by end of game.

- 42 points up against Geelong with less than a half to play and we only win because they miss some very easy shots at goal from directly in front.

- Up by 4 points with 50 seconds to go against the Bombers with the opposition having to kick out of our own goal square and only won because their players failed to make the distance by half a metre.

- Up by 5 goals against North who are second last on ladder and only iced the game with a few minutes left on the clock.


Add to the above that:

- down by 40 plus points against the Tigers before we finally woke up.

- down by 5-6 goals against demons before we finally woke up and then found a way to avoid winning the game when we were stream rolling over the top of them.

- down by 5-6 goals against the saints before we finally woke up.
Those pesky 'usual suspects' always get in the way of those other 'usual suspects' who happen to disagree with them :)

We have loaded ourselves up with talent and we're still trying to get a blend together that makes sense.
I really don't think we know where we are just yet, in the way more established sides do.
Getting the right mix and then continuity into that mix, will show us up as being a more stable team on the field. We're not there yet.

There's also something just a little unusual about this season and the form fluctuations seem to be wider than I can recall. It is what it is.
As long as the club doesn't panic, nor tear itself apart, I see a good 2021 coming up just at this stage. It sort of just has to come good.
 

HBF

Flying Scotsman
Sep 24, 2002
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Maybe when half the fan base finally get fed up with accepting mediocrity and giving players a pas for everything, then the club and the players might decide to finally pull their fingers out and realise that giving effort for one or two quarters every game isn’t acceptable.

Why would a player Murphy care if he doesn’t run defensively or doesn’t get physical enough to lay tackles, after all he’ll continue to get a spot in the team while half the fan base excuses just because he’s getting older.

Why would a player like SPS give 100% defensively or attack the hard ball when he sees how Murphy is allowed to get away with it.

Why would the team as a whole leave everything out on the field when half the supporter base will always excuse whatever the team does.
Why do you only show up after a loss?
I've literally never seen you here after a win.
 

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SOS Rules

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Aug 1, 2014
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I'm not denying Simpson is a wonderfully courageous player and has been a great contributor for so many years.

But in terms of his actual role: Never do you say, for example "wow Simmo really shut Charlie Cameron out of the game".

He doesn't play any sort of lockdown defensive role which you'd expect a small who can't intercept mark to do occasionally. And his disposal isn't damaging or creative imo.

Good link-up player for the release kick in the backline but I feel like we have created a weird role for him to accommodate him in our backline, and I'm not sure it actually does the team much good.
For this season, Simmo would be better used up the ground in Murph's position. At least we would get a contest out of him and he still tackles well. He's a decent goal kicker as well.
 

SOS Rules

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That ship has sailed.
If everything was going well neither Simmo or Murph would be in the side, having been replaced by the newbies. Unfortunately that hasn't happened. If I was going to play one out of the two, then its Simmo by a stretch. In those circumstances he would be more value to us in a more attacking role.

I think that both will play out the season in the ones and that ultimately will do more damage than good to our future prospects. We have to find out whether some of our younger guys can play and either persist with them or move them on.

It worries me about the intelligence of our coaching/selection/list mgt group if Murph has been offered another year. I think it says a lot about where we're at as a club if this is in fact the case.

I think Murph is currently damaging his legacy and I don't want that for him as I truly appreciate what he has given the club over the years.
 

Love the Drake

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Ok. Has taken me a couple of days to calm down after such an insipid effort on Friday night.

No leaders stood up;
Jones has gone back to a headless chook - spoiling our players going for easy marks, going to ground, poor disposal/turnovers;
Murph has been horrendous;
Eddie quiet last two games;
Cripps and Doc badly out of form;
Simmo - looks like the game has gone past him.
Too many passengers - 16 players with 12 or less possessions, 9 of those had 8 or less (2 touches per 1/4);
Two of our most talented players are floundering - Cuningham and SPS.

I don’t know whether we got ahead of ourselves after such a brilliant first 15 minutes or we were simply outplayed. Footy showed that in 13 of Teagues 20 games there has been a 30 point turnaround, which shows we can’t defend when a team gets a run on.

Not sure the solution, but there is a fair bit of fine tuning required before facing the ominously good Eagles.

Do we look to the future now? Should we play a few more youngsters?

Is it time to bring SPS and Cuningham on ball?

What do we do with Simmo, Murph and Newnes?

It’s time to make a statement DT.

OUT
Simmo
Murph
Moore
Newnes (6 touches is unacceptable)

IN
Philp
Honey
LOB
Gov/TDK

I think it’s time..although conceded it’s a tough game to make such big changes.
 

theoneyed

Rookie
Mar 26, 2009
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While this is somewhat true, I think the this game has shown up how we best progress forward with our structures/game plan and transitioning out the older players who most likely won't be in our next flag tilt/finding out who is going to make it into that side. A large group of players you would think would be a chance of being in that side aren't even getting a game, meaning they are missing a year of development due to the compromised season, at the expense of playing the Murphys/Simpsons/Newnes'/Moores etc. Melbourne also looked the goods 3 years ago. At the minute I'm seeing more Melbourne/Goodwin than Brisbane/Fagan. Brisbane are a very hard edged, well drilled side who are a big chance to win a flag this year. 4-5 years ago they were in a similar position us. They've drafted very well and Fagan has brought that Hawthorn mentality/structure to top them off. As a good example, look at the development of McCluagge (was labelled soft up here in his first couple of years), Berry, Witherden vs SPS, Setterfield, Fisher from the same draft. We did it the other way round. We brought in the Hawthorn structure when we probably were't quite ready and have now with a change in coach have become an attacking team with suspect defensive structures/lack of composure when the pressure is on. This is how we go from looking like superstars one minute to looking like a disorganised rabble the next. I believe this is more related to coaching at the minute rather than an up and down developing team. We need to develop our next premiership side which in my opinion has gone off course since mid last year.

The question is are we the next Melbourne or Brisbane?
Great Post and I totally agree.

Playing the likes of Murphy, Simpson, Newnes and Moore in the same team is delaying the growth we need to put into players like, Fisher, Dow, LOB, TDK and Stocker. Additionally, we need to work out if some of the players we've drafted and been on our list for minimum 2 years without having played minimal or no senior games actually have the talent to play at the level. Players like Cottrel, Macreadie, Polson, Ben SOS, O'dwyer. If we know the season is shot in relation to finals, which I believe to be the case, let's play them and determine once and for all whether they can cut it.

As much as I respect the service the likes of Murphy, Simmo and Kruezer have given the club, we can't continue to give games to players who are not going to be part of our future no matter how loyal a servant they have been. The club and coaching fraternity need to make the tough decisions which benefit the club and not individuals.

Murphy's complete lack of defensive pressure, lack of any tackling ability is a liability to the team and a bad example for our younger players. If we continue to play senior players in front of some of the youth, we will continue to be at best a middle of the rung team.

Our rebuild should be tracking in the same trajectory as the Lions and Saints. I believe we are 2 years behind the lions and 1 year behind the saints. This will not be the case if we continue to not put time into our younger list.
 

gbatman

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What a shocker, losing to a side on the bottom on a losing streak after being up by so much. But the good to come out of it was that it exposed exactly where our weaknesses are.

Our biggest weakness at the moment is being successful against defensive football. It happens in most games to us, as soon as the opposition go defensive and apply pressure, physicality and tackling around the ball and throw players back we get exposed badly. That's how Hawthorn beat us and it's how teams keep coming back against us. We can not handle defensive tactics and here is why...

We butcher the ball by foot. If you're an intercepting defender you're going to dine out on Carlton. We literally kick it straight at the opposition. I don't know what they league stats are but I would think we would have to be one of the worst teams when it comes to being intercepted against. Opposition marks inside our forward 50 slaughters us each week and Hawthorn with extra men back and a well organised zone just took mark after mark against us and it brought down every good play we had. It keeps happening week after week.

Physicality. We're soft. Yes we've hardened up a lot, we started out the softer side in the league and we're probably around mid table now in physicality, courage, pressure and tackling. Good improvement but still way off the mark. An average side just has to go hard at the ball and play with relentless pressure and we crumble because we can't match that.

Pressure. Yes it's linked with physicality but it needs a mention. We have a team where tackling and chasing is not natural to a lot of them, it's forced which is not great and when the need to apply pressure intensifies it shows.

Individualistic footy. We're too Cripps reliant and Docherty reliant in some regards. I'd love to coach against Carlton because the tactics to beat us are so simple. Target Cripps, our rucks always go to him, take him out of the game. Be physical, push, shove and tackle hard and push numbers back into defence.

Cripps - Played an ok game but it was an all about him game. When we win we have a more even spread in the middle and we use other players. His efforts were good but we need to be better tactically and less predictable and back in all our selected players. The way to deal with a hard tag on Cripps is to direct the ball to someone else and push Cripps forward.

Curnow - He's putting in some big efforts and he tries but he's just a good ordinary player. Gets found out a bit when the game gets going quick.

Docherty - He was good, some of his disposal was sloppy but he tried hard and puts in effort.

Martin - He's just a quality footballer. He really tries hard and has a go out there and has the skills to match it.

Murphy - There are many ways to tell when a player is finished. Sometimes injury gets the better of them, some just get sick of it. In Murphy's case it's the unwillingness to take contact. He pulls out of far too many contests these days and there's a point where your body gets sore and after taking many thousands of hits your mind just says no more and that's where he is at. He's finished. Can't have players, especially the more senior ones pulling out of contests, it's embarrassing and setting a bad example for a team trying to develop a hard edge.

Weitering - I liked his game, the next step is developing some mongrel and some nastiness. IMO he's too nice, he needs to learn the art of body spoil. Then he will become a genuine enforcer down there and have real presence but he's playing nice football.

Gibbons - It was just not his day, why Teague doesn't play him on the ball I will never know.

Pittonett - I thought he played with so much effort. He's not the greatest ruckman but at least he plays with effort.

Walsh - Was ok, nothing special.

Kennedy - After a couple of reasonable games he was exposed badly. Looked slow and for a bigger guy he just lacks aggression and competitiveness. I think he suffered a bit from our Cripps centric tactics.

Simpson - It was tough back there with the midfield getting slaughtered, he can still play but why would he want to with efforts like that.

Jones - He was ok, under a lot of pressure.

Williamson - Spent a lot of time chasing arse because of a weak midfield effort.

Betts - Not the best day for Betts, going go pretty tough.

SPS - He's not hard enough at it and not strong enough in the body.

Plowman - When the going is good and the contest is even he's a decent player but the backs were under a lot of pressure and he found the going tough. Don't blame him.

Setterfield - Very low possessions but at least there are good tackling numbers next to his name. He needs to find a gym and get strong but we need to use him more. You would think there is only Cripps out there.

Casboult - Played his part.

McKay - We can't kick the ball to him.

Newnes - Was well and truly out ran. Kicked a couple of goals and he has been doing so regularly but he had a poor game.

Cuningham - He's good when the ball gets in his hands but he's hardly ever in the game. He offers no forward pressure at all. He doesn't chase and he doesn't find enough footy and he's not physical enough. Where's the tackling and using his speed to apply good pressure?

Moore - I said he was a poor selection and he proved that. In fairness it was tough conditions for a forward.
 

Own The Future

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Ok. Has taken me a couple of days to calm down after such an insipid effort on Friday night.

No leaders stood up;
Jones has gone back to a headless chook - spoiling our players going for easy marks, going to ground, poor disposal/turnovers;
Murph has been horrendous;
Eddie quiet last two games;
Cripps and Doc badly out of form;
Simmo - looks like the game has gone past him.
Too many passengers - 16 players with 12 or less possessions, 9 of those had 8 or less (2 touches per 1/4);
Two of our most talented players are floundering - Cuningham and SPS.

I don’t know whether we got ahead of ourselves after such a brilliant first 15 minutes or we were simply outplayed. Footy showed that in 13 of Teagues 20 games there has been a 30 point turnaround, which shows we can’t defend when a team gets a run on.

Not sure the solution, but there is a fair bit of fine tuning required before facing the ominously good Eagles.

Do we look to the future now? Should we play a few more youngsters?

Is it time to bring SPS and Cuningham on ball?

What do we do with Simmo, Murph and Newnes?

It’s time to make a statement DT.

OUT
Simmo
Murph
Moore
Newnes (6 touches is unacceptable)

IN
Philp
Honey
LOB
Gov/TDK

I think it’s time..although conceded it’s a tough game to make such big changes.
I agree with everything you say, but I feel the last sentence of your post is the most pertinent. While I am dead keen to see those players you mention in the senior team, I’m not sure I’d throw them (apart from Gov) to the wolves... or Eagles.
IMO the mids are too slight to play against Shuey, Kelly, Gaff, etc. The following week vs Freo is the time to bring 2 or so of them in.
 

Own The Future

All Australian
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889
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What a shocker, losing to a side on the bottom on a losing streak after being up by so much. But the good to come out of it was that it exposed exactly where our weaknesses are.

Our biggest weakness at the moment is being successful against defensive football. It happens in most games to us, as soon as the opposition go defensive and apply pressure, physicality and tackling around the ball and throw players back we get exposed badly. That's how Hawthorn beat us and it's how teams keep coming back against us. We can not handle defensive tactics and here is why...

We butcher the ball by foot. If you're an intercepting defender you're going to dine out on Carlton. We literally kick it straight at the opposition. I don't know what they league stats are but I would think we would have to be one of the worst teams when it comes to being intercepted against. Opposition marks inside our forward 50 slaughters us each week and Hawthorn with extra men back and a well organised zone just took mark after mark against us and it brought down every good play we had. It keeps happening week after week.

Physicality. We're soft. Yes we've hardened up a lot, we started out the softer side in the league and we're probably around mid table now in physicality, courage, pressure and tackling. Good improvement but still way off the mark. An average side just has to go hard at the ball and play with relentless pressure and we crumble because we can't match that.

Pressure. Yes it's linked with physicality but it needs a mention. We have a team where tackling and chasing is not natural to a lot of them, it's forced which is not great and when the need to apply pressure intensifies it shows.

Individualistic footy. We're too Cripps reliant and Docherty reliant in some regards. I'd love to coach against Carlton because the tactics to beat us are so simple. Target Cripps, our rucks always go to him, take him out of the game. Be physical, push, shove and tackle hard and push numbers back into defence.

Cripps - Played an ok game but it was an all about him game. When we win we have a more even spread in the middle and we use other players. His efforts were good but we need to be better tactically and less predictable and back in all our selected players. The way to deal with a hard tag on Cripps is to direct the ball to someone else and push Cripps forward.

Curnow - He's putting in some big efforts and he tries but he's just a good ordinary player. Gets found out a bit when the game gets going quick.

Docherty - He was good, some of his disposal was sloppy but he tried hard and puts in effort.

Martin - He's just a quality footballer. He really tries hard and has a go out there and has the skills to match it.

Murphy - There are many ways to tell when a player is finished. Sometimes injury gets the better of them, some just get sick of it. In Murphy's case it's the unwillingness to take contact. He pulls out of far too many contests these days and there's a point where your body gets sore and after taking many thousands of hits your mind just says no more and that's where he is at. He's finished. Can't have players, especially the more senior ones pulling out of contests, it's embarrassing and setting a bad example for a team trying to develop a hard edge.

Weitering - I liked his game, the next step is developing some mongrel and some nastiness. IMO he's too nice, he needs to learn the art of body spoil. Then he will become a genuine enforcer down there and have real presence but he's playing nice football.

Gibbons - It was just not his day, why Teague doesn't play him on the ball I will never know.

Pittonett - I thought he played with so much effort. He's not the greatest ruckman but at least he plays with effort.

Walsh - Was ok, nothing special.

Kennedy - After a couple of reasonable games he was exposed badly. Looked slow and for a bigger guy he just lacks aggression and competitiveness. I think he suffered a bit from our Cripps centric tactics.

Simpson - It was tough back there with the midfield getting slaughtered, he can still play but why would he want to with efforts like that.

Jones - He was ok, under a lot of pressure.

Williamson - Spent a lot of time chasing arse because of a weak midfield effort.

Betts - Not the best day for Betts, going go pretty tough.

SPS - He's not hard enough at it and not strong enough in the body.

Plowman - When the going is good and the contest is even he's a decent player but the backs were under a lot of pressure and he found the going tough. Don't blame him.

Setterfield - Very low possessions but at least there are good tackling numbers next to his name. He needs to find a gym and get strong but we need to use him more. You would think there is only Cripps out there.

Casboult - Played his part.

McKay - We can't kick the ball to him.

Newnes - Was well and truly out ran. Kicked a couple of goals and he has been doing so regularly but he had a poor game.

Cuningham - He's good when the ball gets in his hands but he's hardly ever in the game. He offers no forward pressure at all. He doesn't chase and he doesn't find enough footy and he's not physical enough. Where's the tackling and using his speed to apply good pressure?

Moore - I said he was a poor selection and he proved that. In fairness it was tough conditions for a forward.
Fantastic recap.
Can I ask - and I do so as a legitimate question and not as a smartarse retort - if you were coach/match committee for the week, what would you do?
Who would you drop/include, and where would you play them?
After a very thorough and reasoned breakdown of the Hawthorn game I’m keen to hear your thoughts.
 

gbatman

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Fantastic recap.
Can I ask - and I do so as a legitimate question and not as a smartarse retort - if you were coach/match committee for the week, what would you do?
Who would you drop/include, and where would you play them?
After a very thorough and reasoned breakdown of the Hawthorn game I’m keen to hear your thoughts.
Unfortunately a lot of the players I would bring in are on the injury list. We need more energy in the middle. We need a wingman. We need some speed and pressure in the forward half.

Dow is at the age he should be matured and impacting at AFL level but he's injured.
Silvagni is a huge upgrade on Moore. He's a competitor, tackler and smart footballer who can go on the ball and provide all of that but he's injured.
McGovern has talent but he's injured.
O'Brien hasn't set the practice matches on fire but I feel he has to come in, I think we have to try him, see where his game is at.
Philp and Honey - they are a bit raw but they could be the right types to sit at half forward.
DeKoning should have played ahead of Moore but he probably would not have made a huge impact as our big issue is with our midfield.

We need to make changes because the coach needs to command respect and set standards. But gee it's hard to confidently bring in players.

I think you need to look back and see who isn't working where, who didn't uphold the standards, I'll list a team I'd like to see but I can tell you I won't be overly happy with it because from the reviews the players just aren't there, no one seems to be knocking down the door.
 

RobR

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Your contradictions are bewildering, not mention the cherry picking, perhaps we can talk about the Bombers and Dogs game too

It's not as if many games this season haven't followed a similar course

It seems "supporters" come out of hiding when there is an unexpected loss and or doesn't play out as per the same expectations
Had a big laugh, him talking about usual suspects. :)
 

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