Review Rd 9 vs North Melbourne: Post game discussion

[Bucking Beads]

Forward line is too tall. West Coast will run it out of our forwardline with ease and cut us to pieces.

 

[Sanchez365]

I think it'll be good for him, especially with his increased work rate this season. If the opposition is going to keep dropping back in front of Brown and double/triple teaming him we need to kick it elsewhere and we have that ability now with a good lead up forward in Cornelius.

Our disposal efficiency is up and we are hitting targets in our forward fifty, with Zorko and Greene sneaking around the contests when it goes to ground we are more primed to score now than last year.

I think this is something we really need to counter because it wasn't only brown but all our forwards who were getting double teamed. North constantly had a loose man standing in between our 3 forwards while our loose man was getting sucked into the contest.

 

[Gibbo_88]

I must be missing it but I don't get some of the calls that Ace has 'turned the corner' after seeing that game, looks the same player we saw against GC when he kicked 3 or 4 goals. I think all 4 of his games he has put in the same effort when the ball is coming near him and he's been decent. I think he deserves to stay in the side and shouldn't have been dropped after the bombers game in the first place but the only thing I thought of Ace after this game was that he is playing how he should be.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Forward line is too tall. West Coast will run it out of our forwardline with ease and cut us to pieces.

Merrett is actually a centimetre taller than Retzlaff, so what I'm suggesting actually makes our forward line a bit shorter. Are you advocating not playing Merrett in the forwrad line and replacing him with a shorter and more mobile option?

If we mark the ball when it comes inside 50 and manage to kick acurately, I imagine the umpires will be running the ball out of our forward line a fair bit too.

 

[Kickit2brown]

Does anyone else think there were structural problems in the first half?

The boys weren't playing well and yes they should have been running harder, but Etihad isn't exactly a big ground. From what I can tell it's a narrow ground and it's small therefore requires quality disposal if you are going to try and chip it around once you exit your forward 50 like we were trying to do as it's so easy to zone - we don't have the skills/composure under pressure to execute that at the moment.

On the other hand - was the chip the ball around and then lose it style that we were playing more to do with the numbers that North had back? (or lack of running from our HB/Mids?)

They had a loose man in defence, yet we had less numbers at the footy (particularly around the outside/back of stoppages), and were getting killed on the rebound, not just by the switch but players running back anticipating the drop of the next kick. Does this suggest that tactically we may have had players running to the wrong areas and not playing Etihad the way the home side knows it?

We seemed to resolve this in the second half and we started to win some clearances & North really struggled to get it out of their forward 50, same situation that we were in but they handled it with a lot of long bombs out that ended in a lot of 50/50 contests instead of dinky 15 metre kicks that often got cut off and resulted in turn overs that were very costly basically 1 non pressured kick back into the 50.

The boys didn't play well, but i get the feeling that we are a bit lost at Etihad, not just tonight but over the last few years. It's a ground where you can easily stifle the play with zoning/numbers and when that starts happening to you and you don't have the skills to regularly hit up short leads running across the wings/centre when coming out of defence the game plan comes unstuck pretty quickly.

Just feel if we had dropped a man back like they had, we possibly could have had a bit more time to run and carry and setup like they were in the first half?

Also think that you are often going to have trouble finding space regularly to hit up forwards and so that extra 1 or 2 link men around the ball can really help you get some composure with your forward 50 entries?

I'm no expert - would be interested to hear a few opinions on this from those with a bit of tactical nous?

 

[Bucking Beads]

Merrett is actually a centimetre taller than Retzlaff, so what I'm suggesting actually makes our forward line a bit shorter. Are you advocating not playing Merrett in the forwrad line and replacing him with a shorter and more mobile option?

If we mark the ball when it comes inside 50 and manage to kick acurately, I imagine the umpires will be running the ball out of our forward line a fair bit too.

Difference is you've got Hudson in the side as well. Can't just sit him on the bench when he isn't rucking. We need a ruck who plays 90% game time and a pinch hitter ala Merrett.

 

[Gibbo_88]

One positive from that game. We were averaging 56 clangers a game this year and today we had 46, hopefully we don't finish the season as the no. 1 team for turn overs.

 

[Grimreepah]

It was great that we fought back, but I don't read too much into it in terms of form. When the game was 'alive' we were obliterated.

Probably the decisive match up was Longer and Goldstein. Goldstein absolutely dominated. But that's the risk when you play young players and it gave their mids an armchair ride throughout the game. If Hudson had played I think the game may have panned out very differently. But I only make that call with the benefit of hindsight.

Conversely, a good selection call was picking Cornelius over Karnezis. His all round game is developing, not at a rapid rate, but he looks like he's close to going from someone hopefully not being a liability to someone who creates problems for the other team.

I find myself uncertain how to assess Voss' coaching performance. Do we cut him some slack due to our ability to play well when the midfield wins an equal share of the ball. Or is Voss to blame for our midfielders being smashed out of the middle so often?

 

[3KZ is Football]

Difference is you've got Hudson in the side as well. Can't just sit him on the bench when he isn't rucking. We need a ruck who plays 90% game time and a pinch hitter ala Merrett.

Maybe you are right, but I would envisage Longer doing the bulk of the work and Hudson spending about 10 minutes a quarter on the field. After two and a half to three quarters, I'd probably sub Hudson off and bring McGrath on for him if we were starting to run out of legs.

I know the "modern" game has moved on, but I used to like Keating in the ruck and the rotation with Charman on the bench that worked so well in 2003.

Couldn't that work today?

 

[Ironmonger]

I find myself uncertain how to assess Voss' coaching performance. Do we cut him some slack due to our ability to play well when the midfield wins an equal share of the ball. Or is Voss to blame for our midfielders being smashed out of the middle so often?

I gotta say I'm a lot less uncertain. I always thought bringing Hudson back this week was the logical move and I know I wasn't the only one. I think Voss got a little carried away when he picked Longer for his third consecutive game as the sole ruckman.

I don't think Voss gets a pass for our inability to win the clearances. We set up poorly at clearances and Voss has to cop some of the blame for that. Plus he's shown a lot of faith in Polkinghorne as part of the midfield rotation and that seems to be a lost cause, for the moment.

Clearances weren't the only issue in that first half though. Our inability to move the ball from our backline was a real worry. How many times did we see a player with the ball look up in frustration because there's no one to kick to? Maybe it's because players aren't running hard enough to create options, but we've had that issue for a while now and it can't always be down to a lack of effort.

I can't blame Voss for the poor defensive pressure in the first quarter though. We've generally been good at that. I think we were just always on the back foot and that made it harder to lay tackles.

I'm also starting to get a bit worried about Brown's on-field leadership. He did a few stupid things that senior players shouldn't do. I don't know exactly what kind of relationship he has with Voss, but someone needs to sit him down and have a few stern words. Mark Harvey perhaps.

 

[Gibbo_88]

Someone made a comment about Rockliff hardly spending time on the ground in the first quarter. Looked at the stats and he only managed 77% TOG and in the previous weeks he is up around the mid 80's. That injury didn't keep him off the ground too long so can't have been that...interesting. Despite Rich's improved fitness he is still spending around 77% TOG, would have thought he would be higher than that.

 

[CarloLion]

50 clearances to 31 overall.

Consider how lopsided that ratio must have been in the first half alone....I thought our second half comeback really obscured our lack of ball winning ability and work rate today.

On the plus side however, Ace and Yeo

 

[Sanchez365]

50 clearances to 31 overall.

Consider how lopsided that ratio must have been in the first half alone....I thought our second half comeback really obscured our lack of ball winning ability and work rate today.

On the plus side however, Ace and Yeo

From memory it was about 22 to 12 at half time in the clearances.

 

[Last of the Roys]

My random thoughts on the game after watching it at the ground:
- Cornelius was good in patches, but for most of the match he was pretty poor to be honest. How many marks did he take getting separation from his man - especially up the ground. Brown is as slow as hell these days but still out worked him 2 to 1 (marks and work rate across the ground). I am not saying he should be dropped, but I wouldn't be lauding his efforts.
- Lester as the sub was a ridiculous idea. Why do we keep making the same rookie mistake of having a non-midfielder as a sub every so often?
- If Black was injured in the warm-up why wasn't he replaced?
- The umpiring was so infuriating, especially in the first quarter. We were playing bad enough but it was just laughably biased. Swallow should have been reported for staging, instead got a free in front of goal. And when Brown rightfully got a 50m against him - but got absolutely attacked and thrown to the ground right in front of the ump and it wasn't reversed it was just beyond belief.
- WHY CAN'T WE WIN CLEARANCES WHEN IT COUNTS? This is the biggest issue we face. 14 to 3 at quarter time; 24 to 12 at half time; 50 to 31 in the end and 34 less contested possessions. God we desperately need someone like Swallow to replace Blacky.
- The lack of run across the team - particularly spreading from stoppages, was just embarassing. It is another huge ongoing problem for our side.
- Polkinghorne has to be dropped. Out of the whole team he is the one where it is clear cut based on form. 14 disposals, 5 clangers, 36% disposal efficiency.
- OUTS: Longer, Polkinghorne, (Black?); IN Hudson, Beams, (???)

Yeah it was good to see us fight back, but it was bloody poor to see us put in yet another one of THOSE first half efforts.

 

[Grimreepah]

We set up poorly at clearances and Voss has to cop some of the blame for that.

What is it about the set up that you think is poor?

 

[Sanchez365]

What is it about the set up that you think is poor?

I've noticed that around the stoppages we seem to leave an opposition player free on the defensive side. We also tend to get drawn to the ball carrier really easily, so in congestion it is easily cleared as two or something 3 lions players try to shut down the ball hander who just passes it over the top too space.

 

[dmac_55]

Had an interesting day.. Started watching the footy at the pub, then went home at half time because was in disgust of what was happening, listened to the 3rd on the radio and shooted back down to the pub because I thought we were in with a shot of coming back in the last...

So basically if I had of stayed home all day we would of won by approximately 15 goals!

 

[Ironmonger]

What is it about the set up that you think is poor?

There's almost always an opponent free just a couple of metres away to allow for a quick clearance. I think we might be too close to one another at centre bounces.

 

[Hollow Knight]

I must be missing it but I don't get some of the calls that Ace has 'turned the corner' after seeing that game, looks the same player we saw against GC when he kicked 3 or 4 goals.

I didn't say that he turned the corner in this game, just that I am confident saying now that he has.

Consistency has been the issue.

 

[weevil]

Difference is you've got Hudson in the side as well. Can't just sit him on the bench when he isn't rucking. We need a ruck who plays 90% game time and a pinch hitter ala Merrett.

Especially when you have PK sitting next to him who is not a runner. You only have 1 guy on the bench who can run. We would slow to a standstill before half time. GWS would run over the top of us.

I think it is also too short down back.

 

[Haso]

I didn't say that he turned the corner in this game, just that I am confident saying now that he has.

Consistency has been the issue.

I'm convinced that he will get there this year. I think that he has earned the chance to work on his consistency now.

 

[DarkPhoenix]

2nd half showed why I have so much confidence in the lions going forward. Interesting game today lads.

 

[WhiteLionFeva]

Probably the decisive match up was Longer and Goldstein. Goldstein absolutely dominated. But that's the risk when you play young players and it gave their mids an armchair ride throughout the game. If Hudson had played I think the game may have panned out very differently. But I only make that call with the benefit of hindsight.[/B

In the pre-game thread I said this:

Might all be academic if North get the jump on us and we don't win our fair share of centre clearances. Which brings me to my final point. I would have found a way to get Ben Hudson into the team to negate Goldstein who I think will outbustle Billy Longer. And if you win the centre tap/clearance at Etihad you are three quarters of the way home.
It was so obvious, one might ask what the hell the coaches were thinking.
Those of us at the game will vouch for the fact that when it counted we were slow, soft, weak, lazy, inept, second to the ball and generally outclassed. The 16 point margin is a total charade and to hear Voss talking up our second half after that first half performance just confirms he has no idea. I'm sorry.

 

[Toffee Lion]

In the pre-game thread I said this:

Might all be academic if North get the jump on us and we don't win our fair share of centre clearances. Which brings me to my final point. I would have found a way to get Ben Hudson into the team to negate Goldstein who I think will outbustle Billy Longer. And if you win the centre tap/clearance at Etihad you are three quarters of the way home.
It was so obvious, one might ask what the hell the coaches were thinking.
Those of us at the game will vouch for the fact that when it counted we were slow, soft, weak, lazy, inept, second to the ball and generally outclassed. The 16 point margin is a total charade and to hear Voss talking up our second half after that first half performance just confirms he has no idea. I'm sorry.

Only thing you got wrong.

 

[Grimreepah]

The 16 point margin is a total charade and to hear Voss talking up our second half after that first half performance just confirms he has no idea. I'm sorry.

I agree that it was a poor selection call, based on what information we are privy to, but it would be good if we could keep this thread for sensible discussion, and leave the 'coach has got no idea' comments for the venting thread.