Analysis Rebuild comparison (Crows, North & Hawks)

[Bazz_27]

The amazing footy charts x account has done a comparison of team ratings comparing us with north and Hawks since 2020. Given the rebuild comparison is currently being thrown around I though it would be interesting to see the stats regarding performance compares.

 

[Trigger13]

Would take North’s list over ours purely because they’ve rebuilt from the midfield out. We haven’t even started rebuilding the midfield.

 

[latinoheat]

Interesting topic. Would like to see an indepth list build analysis on how each club has drafted and traded to get their best 30 players between these clubs

 

[adelaidecrows]

I'm a firm believer that Nick's obsession with mediocre mature bodies over young talent is what is ****ing us over.

On CPH2371 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Bazz_27]

I'm a firm believer that Nick's obsession with mediocre mature bodies over young talent is what is ****ing us over.

On CPH2371 using BigFooty.com mobile app

I'm convinced this is a myth. If we played only our young players we get smashed every week. Need to balance with experienced players within reason of course. Smith has been dropped this year, so has Rob, crouch in previous years. If the kids are good enough they play. Most aren't that great and that's the problem

 

[Kenny Dee]

I'm convinced this is a myth. If we played only our young players we get smashed every week. Need to balance with experienced players within reason of course. Smith has been dropped this year, so has Rob, crouch in previous years. If the kids are good enough they play. Most aren't that great and that's the problem

What a dumb comment

 

[Bazz_27]

What a dumb comment

Almost as dumb as yours

 

[SellarStardom]

I'm convinced this is a myth. If we played only our young players we get smashed every week. Need to balance with experienced players within reason of course. Smith has been dropped this year, so has Rob, crouch in previous years. If the kids are good enough they play. Most aren't that great and that's the problem

So Bond comes in and shows we have a small lock down we have been needing

Taylor, Dowling, Nankervis, and to a lesser extent, Curtin, have all come in and done just fine. Were they demonstrating good form - yes, did everyone ask why weren't they being selected - yes.

Did Nick's refuse until forced by injury - YES!!!

That's the problem. Should Ryan be playing already, yep he should along with Edwards potentially. God I wished we had a small forward to get rid of Murphy

 

[ABAB]

I'm convinced this is a myth. If we played only our young players we get smashed every week. Need to balance with experienced players within reason of course. Smith has been dropped this year, so has Rob, crouch in previous years. If the kids are good enough they play. Most aren't that great and that's the problem

Bruh, did you see Smith form this year???? It took Nicks how many weeks to finally drop him and it will take Nicks how many weeks to finally drop Murphy. Understandable about ROB as we don't have a young Ruckman and at least he was finally woken up to McHenry and didn't immediately recall him after BOG performance in the SANFL a month ago but then he did made him an emergency last week.

 

[jackster83]

I'm convinced this is a myth. If we played only our young players we get smashed every week. Need to balance with experienced players within reason of course. Smith has been dropped this year, so has Rob, crouch in previous years. If the kids are good enough they play. Most aren't that great and that's the problem

The big exception I have with this is Sloane last year taking valuable midfield minutes from the next generation. It was obvious to everyone except our coaches that he was cooked and hurting the side playing that role.

 

[ABAB]

So Bond comes in and shows we have a small lock down we have been needing

Taylor, Dowling, Nankervis, and to a lesser extent, Curtin, have all come in and done just fine. Were they demonstrating good form - yes, did everyone ask why weren't they being selected - yes.

Did Nick's refuse until forced by injury - YES!!!

That's the problem. Should Ryan be playing already, yep he should along with Edwards potentially. God I wished we had a small forward to get rid of Murphy

Murphy isn't a forward so picking anyone in that position would have the same output as him.

 

[Bazz_27]

So Bond comes in and shows we have a small lock down we have been needing

Taylor, Dowling, Nankervis, and to a lesser extent, Curtin, have all come in and done just fine. Were they demonstrating good form - yes, did everyone ask why weren't they being selected - yes.

Did Nick's refuse until forced by injury - YES!!!

That's the problem. Should Ryan be playing already, yep he should along with Edwards potentially. God I wished we had a small forward to get rid of Murphy

The point with Dowling and Taylor is who were they do supposed to drop to get them in? Laird was never going to happen and Crouch the same as we have committed to these guys for some stupid reason. They both did a great job to jump shoenberg and put themselves in the conversation. Probably not far off Berry too. Nank has been playing since round 5 so hardly held out.

I get the case for Ryan, probably a few weeks back when he was red hot. Edwards looks like he is blowing up in the sanfl. Needs another pre season or two. Looks a great type though and really slowing what he has. I really rate him. Curtin hasn't shown a lot at the level yet, hopefully we see a few full games now on a wing, mid or even forward

Worth noting no one was calling for Bond to come in, credit where it's due for Nicks. Looks great, fills a list hole

 

[Mr MysteryGuest]

I'm convinced this is a myth. If we played only our young players we get smashed every week. Need to balance with experienced players within reason of course. Smith has been dropped this year, so has Rob, crouch in previous years. If the kids are good enough they play. Most aren't that great and that's the problem

You need balance for sure but I think a lot of times the balance is off

 

[FR0GGY]

The point with Dowling and Taylor is who were they do supposed to drop to get them in? Laird was never going to happen and Crouch the same as we have committed to these guys for some stupid reason. They both did a great job to jump shoenberg and put themselves in the conversation. Probably not far off Berry too. Nank has been playing since round 5 so hardly held out.

Isn’t that the issue, we play them no matter the form or injury?

 

[Bazz_27]

Isn’t that the issue, we play them no matter the form or injury?

Yeah guess so. Feels like we need a big body around the ball to go with the kids

 

[Jcpdragonx]

The weekend showed us the difference between Mitchell and Nicks.

Mitchell came and said I’m building a premiership list. And this list when he took over was not pretty. Tom Mitchell, Omerea, I’m going to find you guys a new home myself, we are playing no one over 24 this midfield.

Now at West Lakes, we were in year 6 of not playing finals and who was our 3rd player most used in the midfield? 33 yo cooked Sloane. And yeah **** it, sign him for next year too. Kids if you want to play for us, wait for injuries and retirements.

So now these kids are behind on development and we are too slow to learn about whose good and whose not, so the list cloggers clog for that extra year or two (or 5, we know who these guys are).

If Muphry isn’t dropped from that game he never will be. Look at their half forwards - Speed, line breaking, skilled goal kickers. Murphy has none of this.

 

[Scorpus]

It's hard to compare both Mitchell and Nicks rebuilds because Nicks has coached for 2 additional years

In 2020 we had the 13th most experienced list with an average of 58 games played. When Mitchell took over in 2022, they had the 14th most experienced list with an average of 59 games played.

For 100 gamers, Hawthorn had 13 and we had 12

The big difference is that after Mitchell's first year of coach, he immediately got rid of 6 of their 100 gamers, deleting 1071 games of experience

Nicks got rid of just 2 100 gamers, deleting just 366 games of experience.

In the two years after this, Nicks gave those remaining 100 gamers 226 additional games. Sam Mitchell gave 187 to his remaining experience. That's 39 additional games to <100 gamers at Hawthorn over 2 years.

But it's beyond just the ability to allocate more games to less experienced players. In fact draftees at Hawthorn over a similar period played a similar proportion of games to our draftees under Nicks. But the difference is in the roles these draftees had access to when the experience departed, particularly in the midfield

And Hawthorn also kept role players as their experience and it was these guys who got games. Hardwick, Impey, Sicily, Breust, Frost, Gunston plus they added Amon. No other experienced players played more than 25 games in the first three years under Mitchell

For us, the experience Nicks gave more than 25 games over three years to was: Laird, Smith, Walker, Brown, Kelly, Sloane, Seedsman, Mackay, Crouch, Lynch. That's an entire starting midfield!

I think this shows that Mitchell and Hawthorn were more open to change, Mitchell has had a better plan for integrating key young players into the side, and Mitchell has been less wedded to the initial crop of players he had when he got the job.

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TLDR: Hawthorn under Mitchell was more aggressive at culling experienced players, opening up more games for less experienced players and focusing on role players if senior players were kept. Adelaide under Nicks was less aggressive at creating opportunities both in general and in key roles, as the experience we kept were core players.

 

[Greenfinger]

Yeah guess so. Feels like we need a big body around the ball to go with the kids

Did hawks need that? Their 21-22 year olds have more games in them and completely carved us up

 

[Mostyn]

So Bond comes in and shows we have a small lock down we have been needing

Taylor, Dowling, Nankervis, and to a lesser extent, Curtin, have all come in and done just fine. Were they demonstrating good form - yes, did everyone ask why weren't they being selected - yes.

Did Nick's refuse until forced by injury - YES!!!

That's the problem. Should Ryan be playing already, yep he should along with Edwards potentially. God I wished we had a small forward to get rid of Murphy

Absolutely no idea if that's true.

Bring someone in too early, they get absolutely smashed by bigger bodies and it can destroy their confidence.

Players develop. Some are immediately ready to go at the highest level, and many aren't. Taylor and Dowling MAYBE could have come in a couple of weeks early - but instead they got full-time runs in the midfield in the twos to consolidate their development.

It's ridiculous to just assume doing something weeks or months earlier gets you the same result. You're saying development doesn't matter.

 

[Bazz_27]

Did hawks need that? Their 21-22 year olds have more games in them and completely carved us up

Yeah, fair point

 

[Mostyn]

The big exception I have with this is Sloane last year taking valuable midfield minutes from the next generation. It was obvious to everyone except our coaches that he was cooked and hurting the side playing that role.

Maybe. Hell, probably.

I'm sure they are concerned by how young we are - we're a fair way into the rebuild and we're still the second youngest and least experienced side each week.

Hawthorn was about 40 games per player more experienced than us last week. We can pretend that doesn't matter, but obviously that's not true.

 

[Mostyn]

It's hard to compare both Mitchell and Nicks rebuilds because Nicks has coached for 2 additional years

In 2020 we had the 13th most experienced list with an average of 58 games played. When Mitchell took over in 2022, they had the 14th most experienced list with an average of 59 games played.

For 100 gamers, Hawthorn had 13 and we had 12

The big difference is that after Mitchell's first year of coach, he immediately got rid of 6 of their 100 gamers, deleting 1071 games of experience

Nicks got rid of just 2 100 gamers, deleting just 366 games of experience.

In the two years after this, Nicks gave those remaining 100 gamers 226 additional games. Sam Mitchell gave 187 to his remaining experience. That's 39 additional games to
But it's beyond just the ability to allocate more games to less experienced players. In fact draftees at Hawthorn over a similar period played a similar proportion of games to our draftees under Nicks. But the difference is in the roles these draftees had access to when the experience departed, particularly in the midfield

And Hawthorn also kept role players as their experience and it was these guys who got games. Hardwick, Impey, Sicily, Breust, Frost, Gunston plus they added Amon. No other experienced players played more than 25 games in the first three years under Mitchell

For us, the experience Nicks gave more than 25 games over three years to was: Laird, Smith, Walker, Brown, Kelly, Sloane, Seedsman, Mackay, Crouch, Lynch. That's an entire starting midfield!

I think this shows that Mitchell and Hawthorn were more open to change, Mitchell has had a better plan for integrating key young players into the side, and Mitchell has been less wedded to the initial crop of players he had when he got the job.

-------

TLDR: Hawthorn under Mitchell was more aggressive at culling experienced players, opening up more games for less experienced players and focusing on role players if senior players were kept. Adelaide under Nicks was less aggressive at creating opportunities both in general and in key roles, as the experience we kept were core players.

This is a really good post.

I also think, in practical terms, Hawthorn started the rebuild earlier with the cull of Mitchell, Hodge etc.

They dropped down in 2017 and started thinking of their future. A dead cat bounce in 2018 but already planning for the future, and full rebuild from 2019 onwards - including driving out any malcontents, such as their premiership coach.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

So Bond comes in and shows we have a small lock down we have been needing

Taylor, Dowling, Nankervis, and to a lesser extent, Curtin, have all come in and done just fine. Were they demonstrating good form - yes, did everyone ask why weren't they being selected - yes.

Did Nick's refuse until forced by injury - YES!!!

That's the problem. Should Ryan be playing already, yep he should along with Edwards potentially. God I wished we had a small forward to get rid of Murphy

Last week we could have played a defender instead of Murphy who could have stopped his opponent from running amok of half back.

Absolutely Nicks does not know how to prioritise young talent & most of the debuts have been forced through injury.

Staggering when we are bottom 4.

 

[spenze]

Mitchell trusts and engages with his younger players, knowing what they can do.

Nicks leaves them on the bench

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Mitchell trusts and engages with his younger players, knowing what they can do.

Nicks leaves them on the bench

As sub...