List Mgmt. Rebuild or refresh?

Rebuild or refresh?

  • Rebuild

    Votes: 14 28.0%
  • Refresh

    Votes: 36 72.0%

  • Total voters
    50

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RunningBounce

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Jun 12, 2013
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Tbh that doesn't look very good at all. Hopefully some top end talent can help it out. But a few players there need to take the next steps in their development for sure.
I agree there's not a lot of top-end potential there, and more development needed for every player in the list. But it's solid.
 

RunningBounce

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Well in our squad, what young talent do we have that is going to replace 5 midfielders, 2 key forwards, 2 key backmen and 1 running Backman within a few years?
Try to remember how you felt about some of our premiership stars, before they became stars. Rance. Riewoldt. Grimes. Astbury. Jeez, the negativity about Prestia when he arrived. Edwards. Did anyone rate Lambert?

With that in mind, I'd say we have applicants for most of the above positions who have already debuted - notably missing a KPF and one mid, IMO. Not all will make it. Maybe none will.

Mids (not wingers) - Higgins, Graham, Ross, Bolton
KPD - Garthy and Balta
HBF - Naish
KPF - CCJ

If you can point to one that is a bigger liability than a 20 year old Rance, you really should go back and watch some old games. Rance sucked. That worked out ok.
 

Charlie Pannam

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Try to remember how you felt about some of our premiership stars, before they became stars. Rance. Riewoldt. Grimes. Astbury. Jeez, the negativity about Prestia when he arrived. Edwards. Did anyone rate Lambert?

With that in mind, I'd say we have applicants for most of the above positions who have already debuted - notably missing a KPF and one mid, IMO. Not all will make it. Maybe none will.

Mids (not wingers) - Higgins, Graham, Ross, Bolton
KPD - Garthy and Balta
HBF - Naish
KPF - CCJ

If you can point to one that is a bigger liability than a 20 year old Rance, you really should go back and watch some old games. Rance sucked. That worked out ok.
Yer Rance was rubbish early in his career, turnover king, very clumsy in contests, often picked the wrong option.
But as we know now turned all that around.
Hope that Balta can be half the player Tross was and we’ll have done well
 

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RunningBounce

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Yer Rance was rubbish early in his career, turnover king, very clumsy in contests, often picked the wrong option.
But as we know now turned all that around.
Hope that Balta can be half the player Tross was and we’ll have done well
I remember him spending a LOT of time laying on the turf.

If any of our young 'uns end up half the payer Rance was at his peak, we'll be okay.
 

theyellowsash

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Try to remember how you felt about some of our premiership stars, before they became stars. Rance. Riewoldt. Grimes. Astbury. Jeez, the negativity about Prestia when he arrived. Edwards. Did anyone rate Lambert?

With that in mind, I'd say we have applicants for most of the above positions who have already debuted - notably missing a KPF and one mid, IMO. Not all will make it. Maybe none will.

Mids (not wingers) - Higgins, Graham, Ross, Bolton
KPD - Garthy and Balta
HBF - Naish
KPF - CCJ

If you can point to one that is a bigger liability than a 20 year old Rance, you really should go back and watch some old games. Rance sucked. That worked out ok.
Of those, i didn't rate Lambert and I thought we paid too much for Prestia given his injury history. I was a long time supporter of Rance, Astbury, grimes and Edwards, and honestly who ever doubted jack?
 

TigerTank

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This not a normal season.
While I would love the team to be playing better, it is a complex problem that may have little to do with talent and everything to do with the ability for forwards, mids and backs to train (or not) together. The team's success is as much to do with system as it is with personnel. West Coast is probably the most talented squad in the comp and how well is that working for them?
So I think "rebuild or refresh" is premature. Just chill.
 

fargothegreat

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I think we go as far as we can with the current group of guys and then just allow the team to bottom out.

IMO the window of this current team runs parallel with the career of Dusty and his draft group (Grimes, Astbury). No doubt we'll top up again with another top line mid and/or key defender at the end of the year, which buys us time for another couple of goes at it, but after that I think we'll be done.

None of this constant topping up that Geelong/Hawthorn are trying to do. Neither ever looks close to a flag because they just don't have the younger stars coming through.

You don't have to go down for long either if you draft the right blokes and develop them properly. West Coast was only out of the 8 for three years from 2008-2010 to get their next group of topline talent.
 

RunningBounce

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Of those, i didn't rate Lambert and I thought we paid too much for Prestia given his injury history. I was a long time supporter of Rance, Astbury, grimes and Edwards, and honestly who ever doubted jack?
Remember the stories about how Jack got Hardwick's phone number and was ringing him, nagging him for a debut? That made me hold my breath for him. Would have been bad if he couldn't back up that kind of confidence. And it took him a little while. Sharing the i50 with Richo didn't bring out Jack's best. He didn't look like a keeper to me until that season Richo got shifted to the wing.

I remember being on the platform at Spencer St station, after a loss at Docklands, and a Richmond supporter coming over and ranting at me. Lol, "Riewoldt is a ******* pea heart." Over and over. Fair to say that guy also doubted the young Jack. Never really figured out what had him so worked up.

My point is that we supporters don't get it right every time. We might have the next Rance amongst our young 'uns. We might also have the next Liam McBean. Maybe both. Sometimes, you can't tell them apart until they're 50 games into a career.
 

Mr Magic

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This not a normal season.
While I would love the team to be playing better, it is a complex problem that may have little to do with talent and everything to do with the ability for forwards, mids and backs to train (or not) together. The team's success is as much to do with system as it is with personnel. West Coast is probably the most talented squad in the comp and how well is that working for them?
So I think "rebuild or refresh" is premature. Just chill.
It is not a normal season. New players need to come in to play 16 minute quarters and a new style
 

Ceehook

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Ages at the start of next season (assuming 1st march or whatever)
Forwards:
Jack 32
Lynch 28

Mids:
Edwards 32
Cotchin 30
Martin 29
Lambert 29
Prestia 28

Backs:
Houli 32
Astbury 30
Grimes 29

Misc:
Caddy 28

Thats out entire spine and midfield. All of our young players are periphery. Thats a hell of a cliff coming with few if any replacements for any of them. Sure a lot of players can play well into their early 30s, but just at many suddenly just lose it and some even peter out just before 30.

We could very well be done now friends. But it was a good 3 years (minus 1 very sh*t week)
I think we've all watched footy long enough to know the end can come quite quickly and sooner than expected for many
typically due to injury, but plenty lose their hunger after being in the system for a long time and some its the speed of the game that catches them out when they get close to 30

that list of ages shows that we could have a sudden group of departures any time over the next 1 - 3 years

our recruiters have been busy and the side that played the Saints in a scratch match could easy supply 8 -10 players to the top grade
ie( Pickett, Graham, Soldo , Rioli , RCD , Naish , CCJ , Chol, Turner , Aarts , Garthwaite , Egg)
we then have the new bunch behind them Dow, Martyn, Biggie , Ralphsmith

and Miller might still be a late developer

are recruiters do seem very astute at the moment and if there is a mini exodus I think we have the depth to cover
and the back room boys would be quickly looking at trades and mature rookies to plug gaps
what still drafting younger more project style players

no need to panic , its not like the bad old days when we could only debate the merits of 1 -3 players in the seconds

in the AFL against the Saints there were a few passages of sublime footy where we made it look like a training drill

I don't know where this season is heading but I'll happily tune into the game V Melb.

Go Tiges
 

Ceehook

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Of those, i didn't rate Lambert and I thought we paid too much for Prestia given his injury history. I was a long time supporter of Rance, Astbury, grimes and Edwards, and honestly who ever doubted jack?
I had a period where I was worried about Jack's pace and thought he might get worked out (Frawley had him early on)
then when I saw a few games live you could tell he was very creative and talented
 

Virgin Dog

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Reckon Cotch, Jack and Houli will retire at the end of the season.
I would be shocked if all 3 retired. Houli the only one looking like he may not go on, and even then he could probably pump out another season or two.

Rewind a few years to 2017 and Shannon Hurn looked like he was just about done. Ended up All Australian the following two years. Can't ever write off quality players like that after a short down period
 

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Vaska

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I would be shocked if all 3 retired. Houli the only one looking like he may not go on, and even then he could probably pump out another season or two.

Rewind a few years to 2017 and Shannon Hurn looked like he was just about done. Ended up All Australian the following two years. Can't ever write off quality players like that after a short down period
I’m not writing them off as players. I just think they have other priorities and this whole covid situation may make them look at the bigger picture.

I think more so mentally they are nearing the end. Jack has constantly been whinging about not being able to get motivated for this season. He can also barely get a kick. Houli has better form but is starting to get recurring calf injuries. Not ideal at his age. Cotchin keeps talking about how important family is and I think he’s starting to lose his hunger for the game. He has achieved a lot. At the very least I think he will pass the captaincy onto someone who can fully commit to the club as I don’t think he’s in the position to anymore (see: hub comments).
 

Jonesracing82

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hate them all
Reckon Cotch, Jack and Houli will retire at the end of the season.
It depends on a few factors, Thier body's for 1 but if it looks like hubs could be a part of next yrs season it may make some players across the comp really think about it before making a call either way.
For us if some guys don't want to travel for any reason that's up to them we'll pump some games into thier replacements, say if Houli & Edwards don't go Naish & Dow/RCD could get some game time. no matter how the season goes from here with list cuts possible we need to find out what we have going fwd at some stage anyway & all going well we'll need as fresh a list as we can get for Finals.
 

Dr Awkward

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We're not going to "rebuild" any time soon. Even if this is a shocker of a season, only a refresh will be warranted.

I think the forward line is looking a bit light on. Jack is semi cooked and there are no good developing talls. Strangely our small forward stocks are also not that good any more. Should have held onto Butler.

Would seek to add a young key tall and a midfield runner in the off season. I think we miss Ellis more than people think here.
 

db26

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You need to refresh every year even if you win the flag couple of changes in the first 22 keeps you in the hunt and involving and players on there toes.Forward line not to worried maybe a quality developing tall to recruit.CCJ and Chol have to step up.The smalls we have Ralfsmith and junior Rioli to come in.This years problems in forward line a more like system and players not doing there roles .The midfield needs work we got the contested players in Ross,RCD and Turner,Naish on wing for speed first 2 need to step up tho so midfield a priority for me.Rucks a fine.Backs I still think we need to recruit or draft a quality hbf or 2.Houli going soon and if Stack stays there who knows.KPD always good to have a few developing and draft a few even projects. Balta or Garthwaite has to step up in the next 5 weeks and been impressed with Miller this year getting better.
 
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telsor

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Reckon Cotch, Jack and Houli will retire at the end of the season.
Maybe.

Cotch is contracted until end of 2022
Jack until the end of 2021
Bachar until the end of this year.

I'd expect Bachar to leave this year.

Jack...I always figured Jack was the sort who would play on until it was 'quietly suggested' he retire to save him the indignity of being dropped/delisted (and even then he'd probably want to play on in lower grades), but it could well depend a bit on what is expected for next year...Hubs and more crazy seasons could make him reconsider his options.

Cotch....The soft tissue injuries of this year and last are definitely a concern and depending on the prognosis (think Deledio...) he might pull the plug early, but I think he'd want to see out his contract. Kinda the opposite of Jack in that he seems to view football as setting up his life rather than being his life, so the 'big picture' stuff like being able to run around after his kids are probably a major factor for him.
 

Walt Kowalski

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However, we could do with some new blood and some change. You can't stand still in this league or you get overtaken. We need another A grade midfielder, and ideally, an A grade midfielder with pace. We've gone from a quick team to now looking slow and one paced through the middle.
Benefit of hindsight is great, Shai says hi!
 

Marcel Proust

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It's not a great age profile, but the top age players are the bulk of our cap, we're a a target destination (for now at least), so in theory it's nothing half a dozen 'Doozies' can't remedy...;)
Most teams have a number of older players in their 'good' bracket.

Port are viewed as a young team, or at least that is the narrative I think - had some experience on the park last game;

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off, Justin
33y 285d​
274 (133-1-140 48.72%)​
9​
Gray, Robbie
32y 104d​
10​
Boak, Travis
31y 346d​
7​
Ebert, Brad
30y 101d​
22​
Dixon, Charlie
29y 293d​
8​
Hartlett, Hamish
29y 333d​
1​
Jonas, Tom
29y 185d​
6​
Motlop, Steven
12​
McKenzie, Trent
28y 100d​
50​
Sutcliffe, Cam
28y 50d​
29​
Lycett, Scott
27y 290d​

Other 'top' teams are completely ancient; Collingwood. Geelong.

And some bad teams like norf. Hawthorn.

I think op is getting slightly carried away with the concept of needing to replace prestia. Caddy. Lynch. In the short term.

DES has looked a good new houli option for some time and is finally getting a chance.

Titch is irreplaceable but there seems to be options with Dow. Naish. Stack. Types.

Grimes missed half his career with injury. Chances are he will want to stick around for a long time yet before becoming a wine Baron?

Like Dylan cotchin can't be replaced but he still loves footy maybes he's got a couple flags left in him?

The team already seems to get better if you replace
Astbury -> Balta.
Riewoldt -> CCJ
 
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jc12

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Now, I’m not saying that our current squad is done, but I just want to get people’s opinion on whether you’d like to see the club going full rebuild (like Gold Coast, Brisbane, Fremantle, Richmond and Carlton) after this era is done or refresh (like Geelong, Sydney, North Melbourne, Essendon and Hawthorn).

I personally think that rebuilding completely is the way to go for us. The reason why is because I think that refreshing wouldn’t work for us. Teams that refresh tend to have their talent spread across the older and younger players such that they can afford to refresh their side while maintaining their position. Important to note that this is what we did in 2016 because we had our talents spread across the young and the old. However, we have gotten to the point now where our talents are largely with the older players (27+) and a rebuild would be the way to go. I’m happy for Hardwick to oversee the rebuild process if he wants.

What do you guys think would be the best way to move forward from the current era?
Wrong , we have a decent amount of young talent already getting games
 

SumTingWong

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Baker. ??? Egg
Short. Balta. Stack
Turner. Ross. Naish
D. Rioli. Chol. M. Rioli
Castagna. Lynch. Higgins
Soldo. Dow. Bolton
CCJ. Ralphsmith ???? ???????

We are a KPD and maybe a gun mid away from completing a rebuild while in the middle of a premiership window.
 

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