List Mgmt. Rebuild or refresh?

[Daka]

He's contracted for the next 2 yrs after this yr so he has to be the man for the job. We can't be doing a LOLthorn re: Clarkson

Hawks getting rid of Clarkson was the right thing he didn't want to go back to go forward.

 

[Googstar]

Need to remove all the dead wood that has accumulated over the last few years. Not sure why Ross, Tarrant, Georgie, Aarts, Collier-Dawkins, Martyn or Parker are on our list. That's 7 to go without even thinking about rebuild or refresh.

Caddy has become the invisible man. Titch, Jack and Cothcy are struggling big time. That's 11 players or nearly 25% of our list. Rebuild please........short term pain for long term gain.

 

[tigersnag]

I've been a supporter of Dimma over the last 12 months but I'm starting to wonder how much he's relied on his assistants and the GOAT.
It's like at times he's trying to be too smart. Play them where they thrive for starters. Balta, Baker defence. Parker, RCD in the VFL. Moronic decisions being made at selection.

Also have to question the list build. Too many failures for mine. Lynch looks overpaid now and Caddy has been on decent coin for zero return. Bad list management there.

 

[Mr Magic]

Hawks getting rid of Clarkson was the right thing he didn't want to go back to go forward.

Dimma needs to focus on the draft and future.

Still think JR has 2-3 years left yet though, and who knows with some others

 

[max250295]

Need to remove all the dead wood that has accumulated over the last few years. Not sure why Ross, Tarrant, Georgie, Aarts, Collier-Dawkins, Martyn or Parker are on our list. That's 7 to go without even thinking about rebuild or refresh.

Caddy has become the invisible man. Titch, Jack and Cothcy are struggling big time. That's 11 players or nearly 25% of our list. Rebuild please........short term pain for long term gain.

Agree with your post, Caddy contracted till end of this year, with George in all fairness has been ok Aarts agree should go end of this year under contract, Tarant has had to work overtime, filling in, Colliier-Dawkins disapointing tonight, but needs to be given a few games, same martyn, Ross played out of position. Cotch plated well last few weeks, see him out this year, same with Titch, bullish on Dow and new recruits, I think Tigers have eyes on a few free agents this year and next

 

[Mr Magic]

I've been a supporter of Dimma over the last 12 months but I'm starting to wonder how much he's relied on his assistants and the GOAT.
It's like at times he's trying to be too smart. Play them where they thrive for starters. Balta, Baker defence. Parker, RCD in the VFL. Moronic decisions being made at selection.

Also have to question the list build. Too many failures for mine. Lynch looks overpaid now and Caddy has been on decent coin for zero return. Bad list management there.

Our draft recruiters have a lot of kudos I think in recent years

 

[panatha1908]

I think 2017 draft hurts. Higgins and ccj were effectively traded for new 18 year olds we cant rely on this year (though that i think are better). Balta is a gun and naish was a fail. But 1 player from that draft left, though 2 used to brijg in new talent

 

[Gratees]

I think 2017 draft hurts. Higgins and ccj were effectively traded for new 18 year olds we cant rely on this year (though that i think are better). Balta is a gun and naish was a fail. But 1 player from that draft left, though 2 used to brijg in new talent

Definitley, But most of our drafting recently has been poor, very few players have looked the goods. Ralphsmith is a gem, Dow may make it. Who else is there

 

[panatha1908]

Yes not much has come through the last 3 years and so we have aged. Even before then, its basically our rookie elevations that topped us up nicely. Short baker lambert are a quick 3 off the top of my head. With state league competitions on this year we probably need the 4 young draft pics, rookie elevations/ delistings ans a new set of rookies tp give a go to. Lots of new players. Its a rebuild

 

[Rocco sifreddi]

Definitley, But most of our drafting recently has been poor, very few players have looked the goods. Ralphsmith is a gem, Dow may make it. Who else is there

Elite ball winners at top 4 picks gets you dusty. Cotch . Oliver, picks in the 20s gets you dow, ralpsmith types good solid players
Point is you need to bottom out to get the elite
Kids , last year they were gone by our first pick
Our a grade mids are finished besides dusty
Rebuilding won't be easy by not bottoming out
To get a gun kid.

 

[Daka]

Both Vlastuin & Short had 30 disposals our midfield is rubbish they can't win football when a midfield gets on top.

 

[Bird Man]

from now on every win means the rebuild is slowed down.

need 3 to 4 top 10 picks

 

[Wooden Robot]

I've been a supporter of Dimma over the last 12 months but I'm starting to wonder how much he's relied on his assistants and the GOAT.
It's like at times he's trying to be too smart. Play them where they thrive for starters. Balta, Baker defence. Parker, RCD in the VFL. Moronic decisions being made at selection.

Also have to question the list build. Too many failures for mine. Lynch looks overpaid now and Caddy has been on decent coin for zero return. Bad list management there.

Did Lynch play last night?

 

[Wooden Robot]

I think 2017 draft hurts. Higgins and ccj were effectively traded for new 18 year olds we cant rely on this year (though that i think are better). Balta is a gun and naish was a fail. But 1 player from that draft left, though 2 used to brijg in new talent

Not quite the heights of the 2005 draft when we landed Oakley-Nichols, Cleve Hughes and Travis Casserly in one massive swoop.
Our best pick that came with pick 67 ... a bloke called PASS.
We should have taken PASS 60 spots earlier.

 

[Rocco sifreddi]

Not quite the heights of the 2005 draft when we landed Oakley-Nichols, Cleve Hughes and Travis Casserly in one massive swoop.
Our best pick that came with pick 67 ... a bloke called PASS.
We should have taken PASS 60 spots earlier.

Best

 

[Lacustrus]

Elite ball winners at top 4 picks gets you dusty. Cotch . Oliver, picks in the 20s gets you dow, ralpsmith types good solid players
Point is you need to bottom out to get the elite
Kids , last year they were gone by our first pick
Our a grade mids are finished besides dusty
Rebuilding won't be easy by not bottoming out
To get a gun kid.

I think we did well last year with # 28
The other draftees could be anything

 

[A Tiger 4 lyf]

We’re lucky if we have 2 or more A graders on the list atm




Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[_RT_]

Some of the issues which I think have started to become apparent as we get about 1/4 of the way through the season.

1. Speed with & without the ball.
One thing that has become quite noticeable is our lack of speed as we spread away from the contest or when we're on the rebound. We just don't seem to have that line breaking speed that we used to have where guys would run harder than the opposition to get ahead of the play and be in a great position to impact the contest in dangerous areas. Now it's the opposition that spread harder and faster away from the contest and really put us under pressure in our back line especially when they have little to no pressure being put on them as they come through the middle of the ground.

2. Second to the contest
Around stoppages and congested pieces of play we're constantly trailing our opponents into the contest and as such we're the ones that are giving away free kicks for poor tackles. Secondary to this is when we do happen to win the contest, players are generally outnumbered with not much support around hence the panicked kicks/handballs under pressure. For mine it's a combination of older guys slowing down a step and younger players not quite knowing where they need to be to really impact the contest. It's not something that is going to be fixable quickly as we continue to transition to the next generation of midflelders.

3. Forward structure
The structure that we were successful with during 2017-2020 is no longer the best method for our team moving forward. The move it forward at all costs run harder than the opposition and kick a goal through any means necessary has been worked out and we no longer have the midfielders, small/medium forwards capable of playing that way. We can fix it quite quickly IMO by reverting to the KISS method of lowering our eyes and having our players get on the move and looking at leading up to the ball carrier. Lynch isn't a big pack marking forward, his best work at Gold Coast was when he had room to move and take the ball in his hands out in front. Balta looked his best as a forward when he is given the same set up to work in. At ground level we used to have the high pressure harassment small forwards who had pace to burn to that would create havoc for opposition defenders. Now that pressure is no longer there and with our slow long bombs just play into the oppositions hands. We've got some exciting types in the wings that can come in and reproduce that attacking flair, but right now they're trying to earn their spot.

4. Indecisive Selection
Still unsure exactly which way we're looking at going in 2022. Are we biding time until we get our senior players back to make a second half run at the finals and possible premiership or are we looking at fast tracking the development of kids while we still have the older guys around to fall back on. So far this year we've seen Gibcus Miller Dow Ross RCD Mansell & Ralphsmith getting selected in the senior side with varying degrees of success, but we've also seen some out of form senior guys hold their spots even though they are performing well below their best and when Hardwick fronts the media or the media talk about us they say that you can't write us off yet because when we get Lambert Grimes Martin back in particular we should be much better placed. However as I just mentioned we've got a number of senior types playing well below there bet and there is no guarantee that those playing or those to come back in are going to get back to their best at the same time to allow us to make one last run.

On the flip side if we were to decide that the path to go down was to put the development of the kids first, you could wear senior guys playing below their best as the main focus is on developing the kids in the lead roles so that when we have the older guys retire they are primed to step in and lead the way. If we were to finish mid table while doing this I don't see the season as a waste, but if we finish mid table because we bring all the senior players in when they're all available and a lot of the kids sat in the VFL all year I'd actually become much more annoyed as it is an opportunity wasted IMO.


Until we get these areas fixed I don't see us being in position to contend for a flag, let alone make finals

 

[Mr Magic]

We’re lucky if we have 2 or more A graders on the list atm




Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Excluding senior players like Dusty, Bolton, Balta close to, Gibcus will be A graders and there will be others for sure

 

[Mr Magic]

Some of the issues which I think have started to become apparent as we get about 1/4 of the way through the season.

1. Speed with & without the ball.
One thing that has become quite noticeable is our lack of speed as we spread away from the contest or when we're on the rebound. We just don't seem to have that line breaking speed that we used to have where guys would run harder than the opposition to get ahead of the play and be in a great position to impact the contest in dangerous areas. Now it's the opposition that spread harder and faster away from the contest and really put us under pressure in our back line especially when they have little to no pressure being put on them as they come through the middle of the ground.

2. Second to the contest
Around stoppages and congested pieces of play we're constantly trailing our opponents into the contest and as such we're the ones that are giving away free kicks for poor tackles. Secondary to this is when we do happen to win the contest, players are generally outnumbered with not much support around hence the panicked kicks/handballs under pressure. For mine it's a combination of older guys slowing down a step and younger players not quite knowing where they need to be to really impact the contest. It's not something that is going to be fixable quickly as we continue to transition to the next generation of midflelders.

3. Forward structure
The structure that we were successful with during 2017-2020 is no longer the best method for our team moving forward. The move it forward at all costs run harder than the opposition and kick a goal through any means necessary has been worked out and we no longer have the midfielders, small/medium forwards capable of playing that way. We can fix it quite quickly IMO by reverting to the KISS method of lowering our eyes and having our players get on the move and looking at leading up to the ball carrier. Lynch isn't a big pack marking forward, his best work at Gold Coast was when he had room to move and take the ball in his hands out in front. Balta looked his best as a forward when he is given the same set up to work in. At ground level we used to have the high pressure harassment small forwards who had pace to burn to that would create havoc for opposition defenders. Now that pressure is no longer there and with our slow long bombs just play into the oppositions hands. We've got some exciting types in the wings that can come in and reproduce that attacking flair, but right now they're trying to earn their spot.

4. Indecisive Selection
Still unsure exactly which way we're looking at going in 2022. Are we biding time until we get our senior players back to make a second half run at the finals and possible premiership or are we looking at fast tracking the development of kids while we still have the older guys around to fall back on. So far this year we've seen Gibcus Miller Dow Ross RCD Mansell & Ralphsmith getting selected in the senior side with varying degrees of success, but we've also seen some out of form senior guys hold their spots even though they are performing well below their best and when Hardwick fronts the media or the media talk about us they say that you can't write us off yet because when we get Lambert Grimes Martin back in particular we should be much better placed. However as I just mentioned we've got a number of senior types playing well below there bet and there is no guarantee that those playing or those to come back in are going to get back to their best at the same time to allow us to make one last run.

On the flip side if we were to decide that the path to go down was to put the development of the kids first, you could wear senior guys playing below their best as the main focus is on developing the kids in the lead roles so that when we have the older guys retire they are primed to step in and lead the way. If we were to finish mid table while doing this I don't see the season as a waste, but if we finish mid table because we bring all the senior players in when they're all available and a lot of the kids sat in the VFL all year I'd actually become much more annoyed as it is an opportunity wasted IMO.


Until we get these areas fixed I don't see us being in position to contend for a flag, let alone make finals

I think it is fair to say we are not in contention for 2022. Melbourne missed a lot of easy shots. We gave a fair crack. Sure we could have had Dusty etc.. but they had a gear or to and clearly are in the sweet spot we simply are not for our list this year, including energy levels and upside for this year.

We need to look to the future if we are seriously focusing on premiership opportunities and I have full support to Dimma focusing on the kids, our development and recruiting the best.

I do not think this is a normal 5-10 rebuild. People know, if they read a lot of my posts historically I bang on about long rebuilds as the rule, even 15 year rebuild's. However, without blowing up peoples arse's, I have no connection to Melbourne HQ's, my reading of the evenness of the comp is that it is possible for a team to do a quickish rebuild/refresh like a Golden State warriors, given the evenness of the comp, excluding Melbourne, and nothing happens in a vacuum. It is a unicorn situation but I think we can do something surprising in 2-3 years with guys like JR still making a contribution in a premiership contention context in future years, Melbourne are the barrier but they will get get chipped away like we did when they are up the top, especially clearly at the top.

When we do get back in contention it will be from the development of the kids even if the likes of JR are still on the field making a difference

 

[Ancient Tiger]

I think we should play more kids and get them used to the pace of the AFL. Playing guys for 3 to 4 years in the VFL means it gets harder to take that step up. RCD is a prime example. I think we have ruined him. Give Sonsie, Banks, Brown and Clarke several games this year. Sure, it may mean we lose more often, but it will give them invaluable experience. They will only get better. It's better than losing with guys who are only going to get worse with age. Most of our premiership team got games early on in their careers and didn't languish in the reserves because we HAD to fast track their development. We are NOT going to win the flag this year so IMHO we are in exactly the same position - we HAVE TO fast track the youths' development.

 

[banzai]

I think we should play more kids and get them used to the pace of the AFL. Playing guys for 3 to 4 years in the VFL means it gets harder to take that step up. RCD is a prime example. I think we have ruined him. Give Sonsie, Banks, Brown and Clarke several games this year. Sure, it may mean we lose more often, but it will give them invaluable experience. They will only get better. It's better than losing with guys who are only going to get worse with age. Most of our premiership team got games early on in their careers and didn't languish in the reserves because we HAD to fast track their development. We are NOT going to win the flag this year so IMHO we are in exactly the same position - we HAVE TO fast track the youths' development.

But a lot of our premiership team were obviously gun players from the start. Clearly we are going to play Gibcus every week and Hugo will probably come back in sooner rather than later once over his injury. First year players aside, many of our younger players have always just looked like nice VFL players and are certainly not out of place at that level. Pumping games into them would just be a waste if they are never going to be top 4 quality players anyway. Even a player like Jack Graham who is no superstar was just played as soon as he was available in the seniors. The 4 players you mention Im sure will get a look in at some point once our season is shot, which could be this week if we lose.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

But a lot of our premiership team were obviously gun players from the start. Clearly we are going to play Gibcus every week and Hugo will probably come back in sooner rather than later once over his injury. First year players aside, many of our younger players have always just looked like nice VFL players and are certainly not out of place at that level. Pumping games into them would just be a waste if they are never going to be top 4 quality players anyway. Even a player like Jack Graham who is no superstar was just played as soon as he was available in the seniors. The 4 players you mention Im sure will get a look in at some point once our season is shot, which could be this week if we lose.

Bit of revisionist history there. I would say we had three, possibly five premiership players who were obvious guns from the start of their career - Cotchin, Martin, and possibly Riewoldt. Vlastuin, Ellis and Rioli got rising start nominations in their debut seasons, but were nowhere near same A-Grade class as the previous three. I don't believe you can include Prestia, Lynch and Caddy as they were all very high draft picks at the Suns, so were groomed in a very different context where they had little competition for a senior place.

The rest of our other 20 or so premiership players had all the same question marks on them that our current crop of youngsters had. It took Graham until Round 22 in his first season to even debut. Grimes, Rance, Edwards, Astbury, Broad, Short, Castagna, Lambert, McIntosh, Bolton, Balta, Butler, Houli, Grigg, Nank, Soldo, Baker, Pickett, Townsend (am I missing any?) were all slow burn players.

 

[_RT_]

Between now and the bye we play

WCE
Pies
Hawks
Dons
Swans

I'd like to see us take the next 5 weeks and put the likes of Ross & RCD into the middle of the ground and see what they can do. The reason being is that we're still playing to keep the season alive, the games we've got aren't against premiership contenders, but should provide decent opposition and allow both players to compete on a somewhat level playing field rather than being asked to play against the reigning premiers and come in and dominate or at the very least breakeven. We're not gifting games to them as they are already in the line up, but instead of doing the regular changes as senior guys return lets actually give the kids a decent run at it to become comfortable at the level and if they're still struggling by mid year then send them back to the VFL and put a line through them moving forward. However if they actually come out and start to show what we all hoped they would become when drafted then we keep playing them and build towards the 2023 season, when they are likely to be asked to take more prominent roles when we have a few older guys retiring.

 

[_RT_]

Bit of revisionist history there. I would say we had three, possibly five premiership players who were obvious guns from the start of their career - Cotchin, Martin, and possibly Riewoldt. Vlastuin, Ellis and Rioli got rising start nominations in their debut seasons, but were nowhere near same A-Grade class as the previous three. I don't believe you can include Prestia, Lynch and Caddy as they were all very high draft picks at the Suns, so were groomed in a very different context where they had little competition for a senior place.

The rest of our other 20 or so premiership players had all the same question marks on them that our current crop of youngsters had. It took Graham until Round 22 in his first season to even debut. Grimes, Rance, Edwards, Astbury, Broad, Short, Castagna, Lambert, McIntosh, Bolton, Balta, Butler, Houli, Grigg, Nank, Soldo, Baker, Pickett, Townsend (am I missing any?) were all slow burn players.

If we were to search back through Big Footy history about those highlighted players there would be plenty of posts from plenty of posters, who now are hailing them as premiership heroes, suggesting that they're busts and should be moved on as soon as possible for something better and/or younger to replace them.