List Mgmt. Rebuild or refresh?

[Tigers_fan24]

I’ve seen enough. Rebuild. No question.
chol
Ccj
Naish
Ross
Dow
RCD
Ross

and many others are trash who won’t take us anywhere. Our list will put us in the dark ages for a long time.

 

[Lsta062]

Yep we need a rebuild. So many of our veterans have seemingly hit a wall at the same time.

Recognising this and acting quickly means that we’ll probably return back to the 8 quicker if we do it right. What we should NOT do is what Hawthorn did after their 3-peat. They tried to extend it for too long and are now finally rebuilding 5 years after they won the Premiership. We have the picks to start now so I’d like to see us hit the draft.

 

[A Tiger 4 lyf]

9 years of finals usually means a rebuild is near and it’s arrived, probably 12-24 months earlier than we expected after last seasons premiership though

Also dimma isn’t the man for the rebuild, neither are his current support group


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Lsta062]

9 years of finals usually means a rebuild is near and it’s arrived, probably 12-24 months earlier than we expected after last seasons premiership though

Also dimma isn’t the man for the rebuild, neither are his current support group


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Yep. Vlastuin was the last top 10 pick we so that’s the main reason why we need the rebuild as you said. In my opinion, refreshes are only relevant if your stars are from a wide range of age groups. Our best players over the years were mostly in the same age group (currently around 28-33) and it was like that throughout our successful era. It means that they’ll start to slow down around the same time, which is exactly what we’re seeing now. That’s usually when a rebuild is necessary.

 

[jc12]

rebuild doesnt neccesarliy mean you have to bottom out, it can mean just playing the promising kids over cooked players and having a good tilt at it like the swans, i prefer that

play the likes of stack, rcd, or whoever is actually gonna have some promise and go hard again

 

[GoTigers2015]

Time for a reset like in 2016 IMO

Retire Cotchin and Houli. (Jack and Shedda in 2022)
Trade / delist fringe players, CCJ, Caddy, Ross Naish, Garthwaite, DES and Chol and KMac as Free agents

IMO we should target Tom Mitchell but wouldn't sell the farm for him.

We need a first possession clearance player. Prestia and Shedda keeping getting injured and Dusty and Shai split their time in the forward line. RCD and Dow are still developing.

 

[juss]

rebuild doesnt neccesarliy mean you have to bottom out, it can mean just playing the promising kids over cooked players and having a good tilt at it like the swans, i prefer that

play the likes of stack, rcd, or whoever is actually gonna have some promise and go hard again

The Swans have been gifted cheap junior talent every year through academies. We can't match that.

 

[JR82]

Time for a reset like in 2016 IMO

Retire Cotchin and Houli. (Jack and Shedda in 2022)
Trade / delist fringe players, CCJ, Caddy, Ross Naish, Garthwaite, DES and Chol and KMac as Free agents

IMO we should target Tom Mitchell but wouldn't sell the farm for him.

We need a first possession clearance player. Prestia and Shedda keeping getting injured and Dusty and Shai split their time in the forward line. RCD and Dow are still developing.

aat 1 point yesterday Mitchell had 16 disp for 28m gained, he's the last player we should look at, even if he was young.

 

[Daka]

Been saying all year we need to refresh the group I actually think now we may need a rebuild, We losing to teams that aren't even contenders...

 

[Simche]

I’ve seen enough. Rebuild. No question.
chol
Ccj
Naish
Ross
Dow
RCD
Ross

and many others are trash who won’t take us anywhere. Our list will put us in the dark ages for a long time.

Give a few time and opportunity.

I was on the 'Bolton out' train before last year and he came good. A fair few above haven't even had a proper crack at league footy (Dow and RCD in particular), let alone in the positions they played in juniors, to know whether they're any good.

On topic, a refresh is sorely needed. I'll be very annoyed if we give up any of our 6 picks inside 50. We need those to jag at least 3 proper frontliners and arguably more.

 

[kozi]

Yep we need a rebuild. So many of our veterans have seemingly hit a wall at the same time.

Recognising this and acting quickly means that we’ll probably return back to the 8 quicker if we do it right. What we should NOT do is what Hawthorn did after their 3-peat. They tried to extend it for too long and are now finally rebuilding 5 years after they won the Premiership. We have the picks to start now so I’d like to see us hit the draft.

This. Hawthorn are the perfect template of what NOT to do.

Using them as a guide and doing the mirror opposite should see us in good stead in a few years.

 

[_RT_]

As I posted last night the game against the Pies has made it clear what we need to do IMO to bounce back in 2022.

1. Big 6 Weeks
The next 6 weeks offer us a massive opportunity as a club. We've got some pretty big games coming up especially the next fortnight against the Lions and Cats, with Hardwick suggesting that we're not getting anyone back at least for the Lions game it presents us with the chance to continue to take a good look at RCD Dow Ross Stack Chol Garthwaite and Naish against a couple genuine contenders who are fighting for a spot in the top 4. So lets throw them in the deep end and see what they can do. We've also got others like Miller Parker CCJ Martyn Cumberland Ralphsmith even DES that we can bring in and take a look at them against AFL calibre opposition. At least then we can make informed decisions about their futures.

At the same time lets give some of our wounded warriors the chance to get over any niggles that have either seen them with extended stints on the side lines or performing well below their best out on the field. With that extra rest as well as the mandated break before the preseason begins it will hopefully mean all our players are hitting the track raring to go.

In the last 6 games where possible play with the structure and game plan that we want to use from R1 2022. If we're looking at playing 3 tall forwards then where possible select a structure that allows us to play to it. If we're keen on using Rioli further up the ground either on the wing or across HB then stick with it whether he is playing AFL or VFL level and let him develop. Put the likes of Dow RCD Ross Graham & Martyn into the middle and give them responsibility to compete against the likes of Lyon Neale Zorko on Friday night and then against Selwood Guthrie and Dangerfield the following week. Now I'm not saying we put them out there with no support, but giving them the chance to play most of their game time in positions we want them to play moving forward can be a great learning experience heading into the preseason and will be invaluable for them.

2. Trade & Free Agency
As it stands we hold picks 7 16 26 29 42 & 46. Right now the first 4 picks should be off the market unless there is deal that is too good to knock back. If CCJ wants out to the Suns then try and trade him and one of our first 4 picks for the Suns first round pick otherwise pick 19 straight up. I'd offer up picks 42 & 46 to the Dogs for Lipinski, which they can use to get points for matching a bid on Darcy. If we trade CCJ for the Suns first pick or 19 then I'd offer our 2022 and pick 29 for Cerra if he decides to come to Richmond. If Fremantle aren't happy with that they can keep him or trade him to another Melbourne club and we'll take 7 16 26 29 and either pick 5 or 19(Suns R1 and their end of R1 pick). I'd also look at trading any of the younger players we're looking at over the next 6 weeks who want to move for more opportunity. Ideally picking up picks in the 2022 draft for these players would give us another strong hand for the 2022 trade period.

3. Draft
With a handful of top 30 picks we position ourselves to really top up the depth of our list. If we end up with 7 16 19 26 & 29, then it's a simple wish list for me. Target 2 of the best ball winning/usage midfielders (184cm/80kg types) and 3 genuine KPP prospects (195cm/85kg types). Adding 5 top 30 picks to our current crop or players 24 or younger will give the list a big kick along in terms of laying the foundation for the next era of success.

So while the 2021 season might be done and dusted as far as being a premiership contender is concerned there is still plenty to be gained from the year and making the right choices will only help the team rebound from a disastrous 2021

 

[PaulBulluss]

Apologies if this has been covered but if we were to basically delist/retire a few players , go to the draft with existing pics with out trading pics in or out what would that be considered? refresh? status quo? rebuild?

That would be a rebuild. It's not clear-cut though. Do we also chase FAs to a certain point?

I'd consider a rebuild to be delisting/retiring a few, trading some; holding onto our best picks (>30) and getting games into the young/unproven types over the next 18-24 months.

We're in a worse spot than I thought when the idea of rebuild first entered my mind earlier in the season. There's not as much genuine talent there under 26-27 y/o than everyone may have thought at the start of the season.

Topping up is a bad idea generally but even if we wanted to write off this season and give our elite core one last crack at a flag, I really can't think of who we could bring in for 2022 that would give us that boost. There are just too many cracks to be filled, from gameplan/style issues to the fact we have too many injury prone guys in our best 22.

 

[Moppey]

We have 17 of the 22 who played in the 17 gf still basically playing as regulars.

If its a rebuild then have a think about time frames. players we recruited went back to 2006 thats 11 odd seasons.

Think about the games played as a collective it was not until the following players had reached this amount of games in the 2017 g/f

Astbury 26yo 85 gms
Broad 24yo 12 games Broad was a mature recruit so had experience against men and was physically ready to go immediately.
Butler 21 yo 23 games Butler was in year 4 after being recruited in 2013
Caddy 25yo 113 games
Castagna 21yo 30 games
Cotchin 27yo 198 games.
Edwards 28 yo 207 games
Ellis 24yo 135 games
Graham 19yo 5 games our only teenager.
Grigg 29yo 192 games
Grimes 26yo 104 games
Houli 29yo 170 games
Lambert 25yo 52 games. another mature recruit
Martin 26yo 178 games.
McIntosh 23yo 53
Nankervis 23yo 36 games
Prestia 24 yo 117 games.
Rance 27yo 175 games.
Riewoldt 28yo 225 games.
Rioli 20yo 43 games
Townsend 24yo 37 games. Big bodied mature recruit
Vlastuin 23yo 96 games

18 of the 22 were aged 23 to 29 so most were in the mature stage or the prime of their careers or very close. Of this group only broad and Nankervis had less than 50 games. Only four juniors and apart from Graham they had games behind them.
No 30 yr olds .

If we rebuild and the vets we have are gone in say three yrs time we not only need to draft a big core group of players but get them to around 100 games
and that takes time.

It wont matter how well we draft we will spend a reasonable amount of time in full on development of what kids we draft and the ones that are good enough will take time to get enough of them to 80 100 games. The longer we habg onto the majority of vets the longer it will take in this we are no different to any other team

If i thought we could win another one id say lets go for it, but i dont think we have the talent coming thru or enough to make up for the older blokes not being as capable as they were.We have not had quality draft picks lately and we have not been able to target good free agents to off set the decline in a lot of our players.

Im just trying to get people to get their heads around about how long it realistically could take to rebuild.

 

[Marcel Proust]

If i thought we could win another one id say lets go for it, but i dont think we have the talent coming thru or enough to make up for the older blokes not being as capable as they were.We have not had quality draft picks lately and we have not been able to target good free agents to off set the decline in a lot of our players.

.

Richmond are the 6th favorite to win the flag this season.

8th-best is +50 to 1. (Giants and eagles).

The best teams are going better than the tigers but they will still be questioning if they have the guts come crunch time. An outside chance but feels a bit early to throw in the towel ?

 

[Jozzy]

Some of the earlier comments of a rebuild are way over the top and very reactionary.

I just don't know if I can support a full rebuild when we have players like Dusty, Lynch, Prestia, Broad, Nank and Vlastuin in their primes with all with over four years to five years left in them.

That’s a solid core of players in their prime that’ll still be complimented by players like Riewoldt, Grimes, Houli, Edwards, Astbury, Cotchin and Edwards. I completely understand not all of these players will still be here for a long time, one or two of them may not even be here next year but these players are so talented and leaders of the club. I’m not saying we can build a team around them anymore but I do believe we’ll have these senior players to support are squad for the next couple of years, that’s still an asset to have.

We have some really talented players who’ll still be around for many years to come and can have a future Premiership run built around them. Players like Bolton, Graham, Short, Balta and Baker are all proven at the top level and still have long careers to come. Whilst they’re still yet to establish themselves into our best twenty two guys like RCD, Ross, Stack, CCJ and Dow have already shown some great signs along with a few other youngsters.

I without a doubt feel that youngsters mentioned in the above paragraph complimented with the players in their peak give us a really good list that still has plenty of potential upside.

My one question is, from the players yet to reach their peak how many of those youngsters will become genuinely elite players and become some of the best in the competition. Bolton without a doubt will get to that level and Balta should, but I think we’ve learnt from our Premiership run and the run of Geelong, Hawthorn and Brisbane during their success, it’s important to have talent and depth throughout the entire list but you do need those four or five absolute stars of the competition. I’m not saying we don’t have multiple young 200+ gamers at the club but I do feel we need to add that absolutely elite young talent.

There’s two separate ways we can do that, either at the draft (or draft hand this year will help that) or to take them from other clubs. I’ve always been a back the draft kind of guy but with our core I cannot help but think targeting players who are 21-23 and have that potential could be the best way to go. How we lure these guys and bring them into the club is a whole different argument though.

 

[Marcel Proust]

Some of the earlier comments of a rebuild are way over the top and very reactionary.

I just don't know if I can support a full rebuild when we have players like Dusty, Lynch, Prestia, Broad, Nank and Vlastuin in their primes with all with over four years to five years left in them.

That’s a solid core of players in their prime that’ll still be complimented by players like Riewoldt, Grimes, Houli, Edwards, Astbury, Cotchin and Edwards. I completely understand not all of these players will still be here for a long time, one or two of them may not even be here next year but these players are so talented and leaders of the club. I’m not saying we can build a team around them anymore but I do believe we’ll have these senior players to support are squad for the next couple of years, that’s still an asset to have.

We have some really talented players who’ll still be around for many years to come and can have a future Premiership run built around them. Players like Bolton, Graham, Short, Balta and Baker are all proven at the top level and still have long careers to come. Whilst they’re still yet to establish themselves into our best twenty two guys like RCD, Ross, Stack, CCJ and Dow have already shown some great signs along with a few other youngsters.

I without a doubt feel that youngsters mentioned in the above paragraph complimented with the players in their peak give us a really good list that still has plenty of potential upside.

My one question is, from the players yet to reach their peak how many of those youngsters will become genuinely elite players and become some of the best in the competition. Bolton without a doubt will get to that level and Balta should, but I think we’ve learnt from our Premiership run and the run of Geelong, Hawthorn and Brisbane during their success, it’s important to have talent and depth throughout the entire list but you do need those four or five absolute stars of the competition. I’m not saying we don’t have multiple young 200+ gamers at the club but I do feel we need to add that absolutely elite young talent.

There’s two separate ways we can do that, either at the draft (or draft hand this year will help that) or to take them from other clubs. I’ve always been a back the draft kind of guy but with our core I cannot help but think targeting players who are 21-23 and have that potential could be the best way to go. How we lure these guys and bring them into the club is a whole different argument though.

The dusty injury is a spanner in the works

 

[Jozzy]

The dusty injury is a spanner in the works

No it doesn't mate ahaha, we change the squad until after the season so Dusty missing the rest of this season absolutely sucks but it's not going to change the plans of the clubs list management plans.

 

[Growapair]

Who gets retired or delisted?
It appears that with Rioli and Stack playing down back we can let Houli go

 

[Grrr]

In their last year:
Cotchin, Riewoldt,

Probably will not be there next year:
Houli, Caddy, DES, Naish, Garthwaite.

Can't see how we will turn over more than 5 unless someone asks to leave.

Cannot be a rebuild when you only turn over 5 reasonably good players, just shows a strong list with good young talent.

 

[tora tora tora]

Who gets retired or delisted?
It appears that with Rioli and Stack playing down back we can let Houli go

Short plays Houli's role perfectly. Primarily offensive in his play and Stack, Mansell, Rioli play Short/Bakers roles. So, for mine Bachar is the one who is easiest to replace. Cotchin (as did Shai & Dusty) played pretty well vs the Lions. I wonder if it was the addition of Nank & Lambert both back and playing well.

 

[PaulBulluss]

In their last year:
Cotchin, Riewoldt,

Probably will not be there next year:
Houli, Caddy, DES, Naish, Garthwaite.

Can't see how we will turn over more than 5 unless someone asks to leave.

Cannot be a rebuild when you only turn over 5 reasonably good players, just shows a strong list with good young talent.

Yeah, a super successful bunch that hasn't had to try too many youngsters in the last 3-4 years.

 

[Grrr]

Yeah, a super successful bunch that hasn't had to try too many youngsters in the last 3-4 years.

Imagine if we had not receive the injuries and missing players that we have in the last few years, even fewer would have had a run.

 

[PaulBulluss]

Imagine if we had not receive the injuries and missing players that we have in the last few years, even fewer would have had a run.

Yep. Then comes a time like this when we're going to have to make calls on players who've had only limited opportunities. Some haven't even played senior footy.

That's if we go the full rebuild.

 

[Moppey]

Imagine if we had not receive the injuries and missing players that we have in the last few years, even fewer would have had a run.

Ive been going down this path all along.

Good list management and proper succession planning is about finding a real good balance even when winning.I actually think we could have done a hell of a lot more in this.

It annoys the crap out of me and i will use RC-D as an example. Instead of playing him sooner and when the Majority of fellow mids were up and going we only play him when injuries hit and he has to try and do what a Prestia does for example.

Even when we have picked the young blokes we have invariably given them limited game time and usually played them in different roles to what their strengths are. On top of this we have regularly created new roles for senior players who are badly out of touch at the expense of getting games into younger blokes.

Club dynasty"s come to crashing ends because clubs stop renewing. They keep on playing those who have bought success even when they are poor.