Rebuilding/Drafting

[Stafford678]

i havent rearly ever checked this out but just going through the draft lists weve missed

in 2001 i assume we traded off an early pick or 2 , for a player, i cant remember when we got Johnson but here goes

2001- Dal Santo at pick 13, Maguire at 21, Steve johnson at 24, James Kelly at 17, Adrew Welsh47, Sam Mitchell 36,Brad Miller 55, Harris 71

We drafted Rodan at 33, Adam Houlihan at 63, Redrafted hyde at 68, and got marty mcgrath at 77

2002- I think this is where we traded our 1st pick for Johnson? which in the end would of been pick 2 and we could have had Daniel Wells. Took Shultz at 12,Fleming at 41, Nichols at 47, Sitthorp at 62, then passed our next picks

Schultz has been decent but nothing special for us compared to Schammer at 13, Wells at 2, Rivers 26,.

2003-Traded early picks and got Nathan Brown, im happy with that
We took, Gilmore at 21, Roach at 37,Jackson at 53, Morrison at 64, Hartigan at 70, Tuck at 73,Raines at 76,Fletcher 79,Arichibald at 81

Was a decentish draft for us, as not many middle range picks have played much for their clubs, Pettigrew went at 46 was he father son? he looks a good sort, Tuck has been good , while Hartigan,Roach and Raines have showed glimpses

2004-Deliedo at 1, Tambling 4, Meyer 12,Pattison 16,Polo 20,McGaune 36,Limbach 52, Graham 65,

2004 was a great draft for us but still becuase of the drafts of 01-03 have stuffed us up so majorly, if we had of drafted reasonable and not give up early picks we could be a fairly decent side now.

Out of our drafts, Tuck is the only standout,and that is only in this year, roach,Raines Jackson,etc have shown us glimpses but nothing great. Deledio will be a star but the likes of Jackson/Hartigan are going to be decent but nothing special. If you take a club like the Bulldogs for example, there fringe players are ones who where drafted fairly early in the peice, apart from this year , our two highest draft picks where Schultz who has done nothing special and Gilmore, is Gilmore still even on our list?

Just thinkin of even some more drafts back

From my memory these are some of the players who eiether never made it, or where de listed /traded

Adam Houlihan
Simon fletcher
ben marsh
fleming
sithtorp
mcgrath
clay sampson
fiora
poyras
clinton king
ben hollands
mills
zantuck
homewood
dragacevic
bidderscombe
luke weller
Blumfield
Billy nicholls
Paul Hudson

That is a massive list and there is probably more i could of added

ive never relised at how wrong our club has gottin it over the years, absloute discrace, have we been the worst drafting team over the past 4-5 years or is there any other teams that have drafted more duds/wasted talent then us?

These are players that the doggies drafted from 99 to 2002, that are still at the club now

Rob Murphy, Guido,Hahn,Gilbee, Bowden,Hargreave,Eaglton,mcmahon, birss,cross, skipper,ben harrison, power, mcguiness,harris,bandy, walsh,faulkner,minson, brad murphy,

b murphy has just gotten another chance this year, skipper, harrison, mcguiness are on the fringe, and bandy is in a bit of a form slump, but geee the rest of those players are pretty much the core of the dogs.. compare it to richmond, wed probly have tivendale, coughlin, and a couple of others that are starters at out club but not too many else

 

[surpstar]

draft all you want..

non-winning atmposhere will only bring losses..

 

[starkravenmad2]

just as bad as our recruiting and trading has been our relience on so called superstars who in fact are at best above average footballers........eg richo,campo and even brown

 

[Stafford678]

richo and brown are stars, and richo has ordinary entry to 50 been his way in previus years, i dont mind kane johnson but his disposal can be very ordinary and he doesnt have too much damaging disposals.

Weve never had too much competition for spots in the side allso becuase we were recruiting has beens that wernt doing much and when they did somthing for the 2's they came into the ones and couldnt get a kick (hudson), and all of our kids that we drafted then where late picks, like marty mcgrath, or even look at some mid range picks like Poyras, theres never been any pressure and we have been stuck with players such as chaffey, tivendale, houilihan, etc and we had to play gasper last year when he wasnt right, couldnt afford to drop our underperforming experianced players and we still in a way can't now, because we dont wanna have too many kids at once and we are lacking in the middlish aged players ,that we could of had with those drafts previous

 

[BalmyArmy]

Gilmour won the Anzac medal at Coburg v Box Hill yesterday, and will play seniors if not this week, but very soon IMO. I think you forget that our draft selections from last two years wont start bearing fruit until another year or so at the earliest.

Bit harsh on jackson and Hartigan. You're judging them on what????? Their first season at a footy club. get real. Let them develope before you judge.

Also that list of players you've mentioned that never made it or were traded, well how far back do you wanna go? If you're talking about Clay Sampson and Ben hollands then you should also look at the positives from that far back too. One of the best deals we ever did was Jeff Hogg to Fitzroy for M Gale, Broderick, and Dundas. Also, I think the recruitment of Leon Cameron was good, as was the trade to get Gasper from Sydney. I also think you need to look at reliable players who have come through such as Hyde, newman, Kellaway, and Hall. Although not stars, you need a good compliment of steady, reliable players too. And lets not forget the pick up of Cogs over Cloke. Easy to critise I know, and with fair reason too, but there have been some good things to happen at Tigerland as well. Lets not dwell on the past anymore. Lets look forward. 23 years of no success means victory will be even sweeter when we do hold the premiership cup up.

 

[Darth_Tiger]

the field of duds: http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142583

what might have been if we had drafted better: http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113415 (a bit outdated now though!)

 

[roo_stew]

I have spent a fair bit of time thinking our drafting has been poor until I heard on the weekend on radio, (can't remember who), talking about how poor the drafting of Essendon and Collingwood has been in recent years and how that is beginning to be reflected. A fair point I thought. Neither have had too many make the grade. Perhaps we have done a bit better, maybe not as well as some but better than some too.

 

[Harvey Leadpipe]

It's no real use lamenting on who we could of got for who instead. Our early picks obviously went early because they possessed some talent at junior level. Whether that talent was sufficiently or successfully developed is a different question, and we can only hope our new injection of youth can develop at a higher level than we have seen in recent times. I believe the run of years where we continually finished ninth or thereabouts, hindered our future, where we obtained mid-range picks, only to see them not build into dominant playmakers that other teams have. Having a couple of years down the Rwanda end of the ladder, coupled with the development of Wallace and co, will hopefully see our side a more threatening outfit than what we have witnessed in recent times.

 

[telsor]

It's easy to look back after a few years and say who we should have picked up and who was a wasted pick/trade.

Drafting will only ever be a case of 'best guess'. As the years have progressed, the guesses have become more educated, but they're still guesses.

 

[Weaver]

in 2001 i assume we traded off an early pick or 2 , for a player, i cant remember when we got Johnson but here goes

2001 was a great draft and we really missed out. However Dal Santo was off the board before our pick.

We had no choice. This was the year we HAD to trade away Nick Daffy's contract to get salary cap relief (and David Bourke) and we got Stafford in return.

We MIGHT have gotten someone good, we might have got someone bad. What we did get was a 50+ gaurenteed game ruckman AND salary cap relief. Not bad in hindsight.

We drafted Rodan at 33, Adam Houlihan at 63, Redrafted hyde at 68, and got marty mcgrath at 77

Hyde looks a good move, Rodan is pointless but OK for 33. Adam Houlihan was an elite junior who had been the equivelent of a top-5 pick. So he was always going to get a second chance.

2002- I think this is where we traded our 1st pick for Johnson? which in the end would of been pick 2 and we could have had Daniel Wells. Took Shultz at 12,Fleming at 41, Nichols at 47, Sitthorp at 62, then passed our next picks

We got Johnson and the picks we used for Schulz, Blumfield and Fleming. We gave up Torney and picks that got Wells, Kris Shore and Luke Jericho. At the time we traded we swapped pick 4, it was only later that it became pick 2. Again not a bad deal.

Schultz has been decent but nothing special for us compared to Schammer at 13, Wells at 2, Rivers 26,.

Again we had no choice. We were never going to Schammer and were always going to take a big bloke. Everyone likes to say we could have taken someone like Rivers, we could have easily have taken Tim Walsh.

Adam Houlihan
Simon fletcher
ben marsh
fleming
sithtorp
mcgrath
clay sampson
ben hollands
mills
zantuck
luke weller
Billy nicholls

These were late picks, rookie picks,or preseason draft. If you get 10-20 games out of a late pick you can have no complaints. They are just speculative.

Our record there is no better or worse than any other club. We have managed to pick up the likes of Hyde, Tuck, Newman, Hartigan and Hall late. Pretty good strike rate. 1 in 3 would be a good return.

clinton king

King was essentially free. McKee was not going to get a game with us. We had Ottens, Gale and prospects Steinfort and Hall. We had to clear out a ruckman. We swapped McKee for King and moved up in the draft. Good deal.

homewood
dragacevic

Double shoulder reconstruction, double knee reconstruction. Sh1t happens.

bidderscombe

Make-weight in the Hilton trade. Wasn't expected to get a game so was a bit of a success.

Blumfield
Paul Hudson

Being forced to trade away Bourke, Merenda, Harrison, Daffy and Holland and pay their wages hurt us.

Trading for Rory Hilton and Ben Holland were big mistakes.

Recruiting Blumfield, Nicholls and Hudson were mistakes.

Drafting Poyas was moronic.

You don't really have to over-analysise things. Our later round picks have been OK. Most of our trades have been OK. Most of the player recycling has been OK. The problem is those early picks. Not enough of them, and then stuffing them up.

We didn't / haven't got anything get anything from our first round picks like Steinfort, Dragicevic, Fiora, Hilton (via trade), Holland (via trade), Ottens, Pettifer or Justin Murphy.

Those 8 players, plus Brown, Johnson and Stafford (trades for early picks) should the core of our side. Throw in Richo and Bowden, some veterans like Campbell, Gaspar and Andy Kellaway and some late round bargains and we look reasonable.

It is those missing 8 players that hurt us. Basically right now all we have to show for them is Simmonds.

 

[Blair7]

I rekon hartigan's been more than a fair player... think he could be a champion, still rekon we should have kept tim fleming always went in hard and wasnt scared to hit someone

 

[Stafford678]

I rekon hartigan's been more than a fair player... think he could be a champion, still rekon we should have kept tim fleming always went in hard and wasnt scared to hit someone

agree with that, his disposal was no worse then hartigan, pettifer, chaffey and he at least had a dip, we need some agression in the guts , he seemed to allways get arund 18-25 touches unless he was tagging

 

[Darth_Tiger]

2001 was a great draft and we really missed out. However Dal Santo was off the board before our pick.

We had no choice. This was the year we HAD to trade away Nick Daffy's contract to get salary cap relief (and David Bourke) and we got Stafford in return.

We MIGHT have gotten someone good, we might have got someone bad. What we did get was a 50+ gaurenteed game ruckman AND salary cap relief. Not bad in hindsight.



Hyde looks a good move, Rodan is pointless but OK for 33. Adam Houlihan was an elite junior who had been the equivelent of a top-5 pick. So he was always going to get a second chance.



We got Johnson and the picks we used for Schulz, Blumfield and Fleming. We gave up Torney and picks that got Wells, Kris Shore and Luke Jericho. At the time we traded we swapped pick 4, it was only later that it became pick 2. Again not a bad deal.



Again we had no choice. We were never going to Schammer and were always going to take a big bloke. Everyone likes to say we could have taken someone like Rivers, we could have easily have taken Tim Walsh.




These were late picks, rookie picks,or preseason draft. If you get 10-20 games out of a late pick you can have no complaints. They are just speculative.

Our record there is no better or worse than any other club. We have managed to pick up the likes of Hyde, Tuck, Newman, Hartigan and Hall late. Pretty good strike rate. 1 in 3 would be a good return.



King was essentially free. McKee was not going to get a game with us. We had Ottens, Gale and prospects Steinfort and Hall. We had to clear out a ruckman. We swapped McKee for King and moved up in the draft. Good deal.



Double shoulder reconstruction, double knee reconstruction. Sh1t happens.



Make-weight in the Hilton trade. Wasn't expected to get a game so was a bit of a success.



Being forced to trade away Bourke, Merenda, Harrison, Daffy and Holland and pay their wages hurt us.

Trading for Rory Hilton and Ben Holland were big mistakes.

Recruiting Blumfield, Nicholls and Hudson were mistakes.

Drafting Poyas was moronic.

You don't really have to over-analysise things. Our later round picks have been OK. Most of our trades have been OK. Most of the player recycling has been OK. The problem is those early picks. Not enough of them, and then stuffing them up.

We didn't / haven't got anything get anything from our first round picks like Steinfort, Dragicevic, Fiora, Hilton (via trade), Holland (via trade), Ottens, Pettifer or Justin Murphy.

Those 8 players, plus Brown, Johnson and Stafford (trades for early picks) should the core of our side. Throw in Richo and Bowden, some veterans like Campbell, Gaspar and Andy Kellaway and some late round bargains and we look reasonable.

It is those missing 8 players that hurt us. Basically right now all we have to show for them is Simmonds.

dragga was drafted later than first round around late 50s from memory, otherwise a fair assessment weaver.

 

[sante]

Coughlan was a pretty decent pick at 25 or something as people were doubting it and saying we should have taken J Cloke

 

[Infamy]

See how few players you have listed have become true stars?
How about all the players between every one of those good players that are making up the numbers or already delisted

We are not the worst in the caper over the past 5+ years, only a contender

 

[jltiger]

Our trading up until draft 2003 has been abysmal. We were a genuine top4 team in 2005 on a par with North. North built on their 95 side and managed to win 2 flags. We picked up hardly anyone that even played a game between 96-1999 causing list deterioration.
Similar story post 2001, even though list was more of an ageing list carried by players recruited pre 95. Retirements, injuries and loss of form of key players and poor recruiting between 00-02 bring us to our current position.

THE WORST RECRUITING DECISION AND A PRINE EXAMPLE OF THE ABOVE:

BIDDISCOMBE (from Geelong ) fot PICK 8!!!!!! (Thanks Giechen.)

closely followed by:

Blumfield (pick 30)
Hilton (pick 24)
Hudson (pick 34approx)

On the bright side I believe we recruited brilliantly over the last 2 seasons, arguably the best in the league.

2003: Brown (pick 6,18): Mediocre decision currently fair result. Would have preferegd to keep the picks and have ca 19 yr old Bradley or Tenace (pick 6) and another good prospect (pick 18). However our late picks were brilliant with most of them showing signs of real quality: Roach, jackson, hartigan, gilmour, raines (will be a future champion). I believe all those players will become part of the core of Richmond teams fot the next 10 yrs.

2004: Everyone knows about this draft, Deledio and Tambling will be midfield stars along with Raines. (In hindsight Franklin wouldnt have been a bad pick at 4) Havent seen enough of the rest, but if 3 of them can make it then we would have picked up 10-12 10 year players in 2 years. Fantastic effort!

Thanks to some gooddecisions over the last 2 years, and if we can continue something near this strike rate over the next years the future looks very promising.

THE SLEEPING TIGER IS SLOWLY AWAKENING FROM ITS 25 YEAR NAP (long nap). WHEN IT FULLY AWAKENS IN A FEW YEARS WATCH OUT!

GO TIGES.

 

[nut]

Our trading up until draft 2003 has been abysmal. We were a genuine top4 team in 2005 on a par with North. North built on their 95 side and managed to win 2 flags. We picked up hardly anyone that even played a game between 96-1999 causing list deterioration.
Similar story post 2001, even though list was more of an ageing list carried by players recruited pre 95. Retirements, injuries and loss of form of key players and poor recruiting between 00-02 bring us to our current position.

THE WORST RECRUITING DECISION AND A PRINE EXAMPLE OF THE ABOVE:

BIDDISCOMBE (from Geelong ) fot PICK 8!!!!!! (Thanks Giechen.)

closely followed by:

Blumfield (pick 30)
Hilton (pick 24)
Hudson (pick 34approx)

On the bright side I believe we recruited brilliantly over the last 2 seasons, arguably the best in the league.

2003: Brown (pick 6,18): Mediocre decision currently fair result. Would have preferegd to keep the picks and have ca 19 yr old Bradley or Tenace (pick 6) and another good prospect (pick 18). However our late picks were brilliant with most of them showing signs of real quality: Roach, jackson, hartigan, gilmour, raines (will be a future champion). I believe all those players will become part of the core of Richmond teams fot the next 10 yrs.

2004: Everyone knows about this draft, Deledio and Tambling will be midfield stars along with Raines. (In hindsight Franklin wouldnt have been a bad pick at 4) Havent seen enough of the rest, but if 3 of them can make it then we would have picked up 10-12 10 year players in 2 years. Fantastic effort!

Thanks to some gooddecisions over the last 2 years, and if we can continue something near this strike rate over the next years the future looks very promising.

THE SLEEPING TIGER IS SLOWLY AWAKENING FROM ITS 25 YEAR NAP (long nap). WHEN IT FULLY AWAKENS IN A FEW YEARS WATCH OUT!

GO TIGES.

Raines was picked up in the 2003 draft and debuted last year. We got Hilton for pick 8

 

[Weaver]

Our trading up until draft 2003 has been abysmal. We were a genuine top4 team in 2005 on a par with North. North built on their 95 side and managed to win 2 flags. We picked up hardly anyone that even played a game between 96-1999 causing list deterioration..

We were not a genuine top-4 side as our humiliation at the hands of Geelong showed. We were overacheivers who won all our close games, something which teams rarely do.

Also our team was based on a style of play, and style of footballer that was becoming obsolete. We had slow-specilist forward-pockets like Naish and Daffy, and slow-specialist back-pockets like Jame Tape, Duncan Kellaway and Ashley Prescott.

Even back then backline players were becoming attacking guys who did a little defending, and forward pockets were becoming extra midfielders who popped up for goals.

We were in need of radical surgery after 1995 and couldn't do much because of our salary cap situation and debt.

Similar story post 2001, even though list was more of an ageing list carried by players recruited pre 95. Retirements, injuries and loss of form of key players and poor recruiting between 00-02 bring us to our current position...

In 2001 we needed an experienced person like Greg Miller who could see through the hype and realise that we were pretty rubbish and needed to make some big changes.

Instead we had fools who thought all we needed to do was kick more goals. To kick more goals they reasoned we needed more forwards. Big mistake. We needed more run.

THE WORST RECRUITING DECISION AND A PRINE EXAMPLE OF THE ABOVE:

BIDDISCOMBE (from Geelong ) fot PICK 8!!!!!! (Thanks Giechen.)...

We got Hilton for pick 8 and pick 24. He was an elite centreman as a junior and recruited to do the Mark Coughlan role. Brisbane had drafted him at 3. Hilton though has never gotten fit, turned up at Richmond in his first season about 10kg overweight and has suffered many soft-tissue injuries as a result.

You can be as clever as you like when you recruit them, but eventually it is down to the player. If the player can't be stuffed then there ain't much a club can do.

Biddiscombe was just thrown in because of an AFL rule which forbids the trading of picks for picks. Every trade must involve a player. We swapped some picks with Geelong to get the Hilton deal to happen. Biddiscombe was just a 5cent piece thrown into the deal to appease the rule makers.

Blumfield (pick 30)

Blumfield was not a player we needed, but considering Essendon paid half his wages it made sense to add a premiership player. He was another who had the talent to justify the selection but not the heart to make something of it.

On the bright side I believe we recruited brilliantly over the last 2 seasons, arguably the best in the league.)

Perhaps, perhaps not.

Some good ones, some bad.

Roach should have been rookie-listed, no one else wanted him. Gilmour was a big reach. Pattison and Polo were also taken a bit earlier than their talent warranted. Meyer was overkill ... we already had Tambling and Deledio, adding another winger when we desperately need big blokes is a bit dubious.

For all the take of Roach, Raines and Jackson none has actually yet won a position in the team on merit, just based on their birth certificate.

When you look at our guys under the age of 23 and ask, who is actually getting a game on merit? Who would get a game at a top-10 side? Well probably Coughlan, Hyde and Newman. Perhaps Hartigan. Not Krakouer or Rodan. Deledio and Tambling in the future.

So the jury is still very much out.

 

[jake]

Weaver said some pretty spot on stuff

Can't argue with any of that. There is no way we have been the best in the league over the last 2 years either. Average. Nowhere near someone like Melbourne, for instance.

 

[Big Punt]

For all the take of Roach, Raines and Jackson none has actually yet won a position in the team on merit, just based on their birth certificate.

Why is Jackson included in the "birth certificate" brigade - is he related to a past player?

 

[Weaver]

dragga was drafted later than first round around late 50s from memory, otherwise a fair assessment weaver.

Clubs were allowed to draft one 17 year old. We took Dragga. So even though the was chosen later he was none-the-less taken as one of the top-12 in his age group. He was a first round selection but for a quirk in the draft. Same story for Steinfort.

 

[Weaver]

Why is Jackson included in the "birth certificate" brigade - is he related to a past player?

No. Just that some of our guys are not getting games because they have performed well at Coburg, or performed well at Richmond, just because they are young.

 

[Weaver]

Can't argue with any of that. There is no way we have been the best in the league over the last 2 years either. Average. Nowhere near someone like Melbourne, for instance.

It might scare people to think of it, but Brisbane have a better young group than we do. Attard, Adcock, Logan, Sherman, Wood, Brennan, Selwood, McGrath and Hadley are all under 23 and are a better group than we have. They will add Marc Murphy father-son this year to that and he is a bit special (second coming of Luke Power).

It is hard to be one of the best young teams when you trade away your early picks for Johnson, Stafford and Brown. Good trades, but means missing out of 4-5 good youngsters.

 

[Krakustar]

When you look at our guys under the age of 23 and ask, who is actually getting a game on merit? Who would get a game at a top-10 side? Well probably Coughlan, Hyde and Newman. Perhaps Hartigan. Not Krakouer or Rodan. Deledio and Tambling in the future.

So the jury is still very much out.

You don't think Delidio has earned his spot each week? Probably Cogs, Hyde & Newmo?????? They would be in our top 10 easily and would get a game in any side.

The jury may still be out but it is obvious we have vastly improved the overall quality of our list over the past 2 years. We have a long way to go but we are moving in the right direction.

 

[jltiger]

If anything my first post on bigfooty did create a good response, even though very few agreed with my views!
I stand by my thoughts that we were on a par with north in 95 proven by our close tussles over 3 matches. Geelong and Carlton were a class above both those teams. We didnt get further development post 95.

There seems to be consensus that i was mistaken ob the Biddiscombe pick 8 trade. I was of the impression that both the Hilton and Biddiscombe trades were straight swaps for the Rochmond draft picks with the respective clubs, not a 3 way deal involving Geelong and Brisbane. Could someone clarify and refresh my memory.

I stand by my point that at this stage we have performed best in the last 2 drafts. I never said we had the best young list, my point was made based on the performance in the last 2 drafts. Only time can prove me correct or otherwise ofcourse.