The Law recreational drugs decriminalize or not?

[Judd2Sewell]

Damn hasn't anyone watched the Wire?

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Two men dead after being 'cooked from the inside' in drug overdose

Who's up for some 'recreation'?

I'm sure you're aware that if these drugs were legal and this made in a safe and secure lab (as oppossd to a methead's basement) the chances of someone ingesting a shard of glass, or bleach, etc. would be nil.

 

[Ron The Bear]

I'm sure you're aware that if these drugs were legal and this made in a safe and secure lab (as oppossd to a methead's basement) the chances of someone ingesting a shard of glass, or bleach, etc. would be nil.

Results are still unpredictable depending on the individual. Put it this way... if the government supplies you and you go out and do something that affects me adversely while you're off your nut, I'm holding the government responsible.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Results are still unpredictable depending on the individual. Put it this way... if the government supplies you and you go out and do something that affects me adversely while you're off your nut, I'm holding the government responsible.

Interesting point, that would make for a awkward situation for them.

 

[BEaston]

Results are still unpredictable depending on the individual. Put it this way... if the government supplies you and you go out and do something that affects me adversely while you're off your nut, I'm holding the government responsible.

Do people hold the government responsible for drink drivers?

How about people take some responsibility for their own actions.

 

[skilts]

Results are still unpredictable depending on the individual. Put it this way... if the government supplies you and you go out and do something that affects me adversely while you're off your nut, I'm holding the government responsible.

Do you currently blame the government when somebody breaks into your house to feed their habit. Do you currently blame the government because your kid dies from a shitty load of meth?

 

[vmasco]

You can only legislate a certain amount of common sense. Maybe alcohol was the driver in the case of the mother drowning her sons in the Murray. Maybe it was drugs.

Whilst I wouldn't personally oppose a ban on alcohol, plenty would.

Neither would I. Although it will never happen...Well it did for 13 years early last century and was a monumental disaster.

As for alcohol or drugs being an influence in the case you mention I thought it was already established that the courts don't view a persons guilt as being any less due to being under the influence, so even if she was on anything it cannot be seen to have influenced her behaviour. People should take responsibility for their actions and can't use their drug use as an excuse. And so attitudes towards alcohol should be no different to any other drug. They should all be legal and production and sale regulated.

I eat well and are in reasonable health. I've had a gutful of paying my medicare levy each year so some fat arse can visit their GP each month and make use of public health system while I can't remember the last time I saw my GP. Obesity causes more deaths and strain on the public health system in this country than illicit drugs and I'd like to see a complete ban on all fast food and additional taxes on sugar and dairy products. I would even go as far to say that parents who feed their kids crap foods causing them to end up obese should be locked up. But that would be infringing on basic freedoms of those adults who don't have the common sense to limit their intake of unhealthy food, and would penalise all those that do have enough self control to eat those foods responsibly.

Drug use shouldn't be treated any differently.

 

[Power Raid]

If we do relax drug laws; which drugs, who can distribute and on what conditions?

 

[vmasco]

If we do relax drug laws; which drugs, who can distribute and on what conditions?

Fair question and admittedly a more complex topic to discuss than the reasons for ending prohibition.

I'll give it a shot.

Opiates are already the realm of pharmaceutical companies so no real change there. They could also take on other chemical based party drugs (MDMA, Ketamin, LSD etc) as they already have the infrastructure. Maybe that would relieve them of some of their concern of lost sales to cannabis products.

Distribution to be by prescription for opiates. Hallucinogens could be available from behind the counter possibly via bottle shops or specialised drug dispensaries restricted to over 18's.

As for pot we should be free to grow our own for personal use. Commercial growers to be regulated and distribution treated similarly to alcohol.

A ban on advertising would not be a bad idea either.

Obviously that's in summary but it shouldn't be complicated beyond necessity, over-regulated or overtaxed or there would be opportunity for the black market to reestablish itself.

A vital component of all this though is honest scientific research and education. No more bullshitting just provide facts to people on safe usage, immediate effects, potential short and long term harms and how to deal with overdosing.

 

[GreyCrow]

Distribution to be by prescription for opiates. Hallucinogens could be available from behind the counter possibly via bottle shops or specialised drug dispensaries restricted to over 18's.

You've made a good argument so don't take this as a potshot but as a questioned response.

What happens to the under 18s? That is when the most experimenting occurs. Do they get mum and dad to get them the gear or do they chase up the backyard methdealer and sell their bodies ( extreme but it happens)

 

[Power Raid]

Fair question and admittedly a more complex topic to discuss than the reasons for ending prohibition.

I'll give it a shot.

Opiates are already the realm of pharmaceutical companies so no real change there. They could also take on other chemical based party drugs (MDMA, Ketamin, LSD etc) as they already have the infrastructure. Maybe that would relieve them of some of their concern of lost sales to cannabis products.

Distribution to be by prescription for opiates. Hallucinogens could be available from behind the counter possibly via bottle shops or specialised drug dispensaries restricted to over 18's.

As for pot we should be free to grow our own for personal use. Commercial growers to be regulated and distribution treated similarly to alcohol.

A ban on advertising would not be a bad idea either.

Obviously that's in summary but it shouldn't be complicated beyond necessity, over-regulated or overtaxed or there would be opportunity for the black market to reestablish itself.

A vital component of all this though is honest scientific research and education. No more bullshitting just provide facts to people on safe usage, immediate effects, potential short and long term harms and how to deal with overdosing.

I tend to agree but I can't help but think of practical issues like insurance which covers all drugs. The other issue is whether drug companies could obtain finance in both the short term and long term as all large scale funding is moving to an "ethical" measure. This could mean a multibillion dollar business is putting itself at risk because of one product line.


Another issue is, if tabacco were introduced to the market today would be legal to smoke knowing what we know? I feel for this reason marijuana won't be legal to smoke for recreational purposes.

My gut feel is marijuana will be in oils, nasal sprays or tablets. The big question will be whether these will be cannabinoids only or include THC. Again I think the OZ govt will remain cautious like the US and continue THC as being a schedule 1 drug.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Do you currently blame the government when somebody breaks into your house to feed their habit. Do you currently blame the government because your kid dies from a shitty load of meth?

No, I'd blame the shiftless * who broke into my house. If my kid died I'd mostly blame myself.

 

[vmasco]

You've made a good argument so don't take this as a potshot but as a questioned response.

What happens to the under 18s? That is when the most experimenting occurs. Do they get mum and dad to get them the gear or do they chase up the backyard methdealer and sell their bodies ( extreme but it happens)

Kids couldn't have it any easier to access drugs right now, under prohibition. Why would parents under a regulated system assist their kids (or any others) to access drugs for experimentation unless the parents themselves are irresponsible? It happens commonly with alcohol which I now believe to be a careless practice and if any adult offered my kids booze I'd hope I've educated them enough to decline.

As for kids being prostituted for meth it seems to be the parents instigating it for their own use rather than for the kids (unless that is what you meant?) . Its an abhorrent situation and once again is aided by prohibition. In a regulated market it would be very unlikely for this to occur.

 

[GreyCrow]

Kids couldn't have it any easier to access drugs right now, under prohibition. Why would parents under a regulated system assist their kids (or any others) to access drugs for experimentation unless the parents themselves are irresponsible? It happens commonly with alcohol which I now believe to be a careless practice and if any adult offered my kids booze I'd hope I've educated them enough to decline.

As for kids being prostituted for meth it seems to be the parents instigating it for their own use rather than for the kids (unless that is what you meant?) . Its an abhorrent situation and once again is aided by prohibition. In a regulated market it would be very unlikely for this to occur.

Yes but your post said drugs would only be available to over 18s. What do the U/18s do?

 

[vmasco]

Yes but your post said drugs would only be available to over 18s. What do the U/18s do?

Sorry maybe i'm not following your line of questioning. The whole point of regulating illicit drugs is to keep it out of the hands of kids. If you are concerned about medical cannabis or opiates then that would be through a GP I'd have thought.

 

[GreyCrow]

Sorry maybe i'm not following your line of questioning. The whole point of regulating illicit drugs is to keep it out of the hands of kids. If you are concerned about medical cannabis or opiates then that would be through a GP I'd have thought.

And we return to my point. You will never keep it out of the hands of kids.

I didn't turn 18 and start drinking. I didn't turn 18 and start on the weed. I went to my local drug dealer and bought from them. I bluffed my way through the bottle-o.

If you legislate that over 18s can access then ( and my point) is that those who are under 18 will still find a market from the illegal uncut poorly manufactured drug dealers

 

[vmasco]

I tend to agree but I can't help but think of practical issues like insurance which covers all drugs. The other issue is whether drug companies could obtain finance in both the short term and long term as all large scale funding is moving to an "ethical" measure. This could mean a multibillion dollar business is putting itself at risk because of one product line.

Are you referring to personal health insurance? As far as finance goes how do tobacco companies and other polluters go if as you say ethics are becoming an increasing factor? I don't really have much knowledge on that aspect of the issue so can't really comment much further, but your points are all well considered.

Another issue is, if tabacco were introduced to the market today would be legal to smoke knowing what we know? I feel for this reason marijuana won't be legal to smoke for recreational purposes.

Don't disagree on tobacco but I am wondering where you are drawing your information on cannabis. It has been widely reported for some time that whilst smoking cannabis on its own may lead to moderate respiratory problems they are in my opinion far from the catastrophic problems associated with tobacco.

"The evidence suggests that smoking cannabis does not increase the risk for certain cancers (i.e., lung, head, and neck) in adults,"
"Smoking cannabis on a regular basis is associated with chronic cough and phlegm production."
"It is unclear whether cannabis use is associated with COPD [chronic obstructive pulmonary disease], asthma, or worsened lung function."

Some light reading...
https://www.nap.edu/read/24625/chapter/1

And how would we enforce a ban on smoking it? Only way i imagine would be to maintain prohibition of personal growing so the only available products are as you mentioned plus edibles for recreational use.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Don't disagree on tobacco but I am wondering where you are drawing your information on cannabis. It has been widely reported for some time that whilst smoking cannabis on its own may lead to moderate respiratory problems they are in my opinion far from the catastrophic problems associated with tobacco.

Does Cannabidiol Protect Against Adverse Psychological Effects of THC?

"Cannabis is not a safe drug. Depending on how often someone uses, the age of onset, the potency of the cannabis that is used and someone’s individual sensitivity, the recreational use of cannabis may cause permanent psychological disorders."

 

[vmasco]

And we return to my point. You will never keep it out of the hands of kids.

I didn't turn 18 and start drinking. I didn't turn 18 and start on the weed. I went to my local drug dealer and bought from them. I bluffed my way through the bottle-o.

If you legislate that over 18s can access then ( and my point) is that those who are under 18 will still find a market from the illegal uncut poorly manufactured drug dealers

I would hazard a guess that your success rate with your dealer was 100% unless he was out of supply. How did you go with the bottle-o? And anyway you just said you still got your booze from a regulated seller (who broke the law). By your argument there should have been some easily accessed illegal brewer or distillery you could have gone to. Regulation of alcohol eliminated most of that.

Not denying there will always be experimentation by kids. But there is information coming out of the U.S states that have legalised recreational marijuana that teenage use declined in the period following legalisation. It may be just coincidence but use has definitely not increased.

 

[vmasco]

Does Cannabidiol Protect Against Adverse Psychological Effects of THC?

"Cannabis is not a safe drug. Depending on how often someone uses, the age of onset, the potency of the cannabis that is used and someone’s individual sensitivity, the recreational use of cannabis may cause permanent psychological disorders."

...
(my bolding)

Most recreational users will never be faced with such persistent mental illness, but in some individuals cannabis use leads to undesirable effects: cognitive impairment, anxiety, paranoia, and increased risks of developing chronic psychosis or drug addiction. Studies examining the protective effects of CBD have shown that CBD can counteract the negative effects of THC.

That study is a few years old now...have a read through the one I posted above.

 

[Ron The Bear]

That study is a few years old now...have a read through the one I posted above.

It'll end up like the climate change debate, "my expert's better than your expert". But having seen it happen in front of me, I'm inclined to believe Niesink & van Laar.

 

[GreyWind]

Opiates are already the realm of pharmaceutical companies so no real change there. They could also take on other chemical based party drugs (MDMA, Ketamin, LSD etc) as they already have the infrastructure. Maybe that would relieve them of some of their concern of lost sales to cannabis products

Ketamine is already a schedule 8 drug in Australia so follows the same conditions as other opiates such as morphine and fentanyl. If drug legalisation happened the entire drug schedule would have to be changed.

Drug decriminalisation on the other hand would just be moving drugs from schedule 9 into schedule 8 and then there would have to be a change in sentencing for possessing these drugs as currently on doctors can prescribe any S8 drugs as the whole point of decriminalisation is to ease the burden on the justice system for petty drug crime. Also giving all drugs moved into S8 a category X designation as well which they probably already have.

 

[Power Raid]

Are you referring to personal health insurance? As far as finance goes how do tobacco companies and other polluters go if as you say ethics are becoming an increasing factor? I don't really have much knowledge on that aspect of the issue so can't really comment much further, but your points are all well considered.



Don't disagree on tobacco but I am wondering where you are drawing your information on cannabis. It has been widely reported for some time that whilst smoking cannabis on its own may lead to moderate respiratory problems they are in my opinion far from the catastrophic problems associated with tobacco.


Some light reading...
https://www.nap.edu/read/24625/chapter/1

And how would we enforce a ban on smoking it? Only way i imagine would be to maintain prohibition of personal growing so the only available products are as you mentioned plus edibles for recreational use.

In regards to insurance, I'm referring to director's insurance and operational insurance.

The issue with smoking, I'm only using a layman's understanding. However the THC can't be removed and see this as a bridge too far for regulators.

For disclosure, I own marijuana farms in California and Illinois.

 

[skilts]

For disclosure, I own marijuana farms in California and Illinois.

I was wondering a couple of weeks ago how you were going with this. I think the last time it was mentioned you were looking for properties. Sounds like it's up and running. Seems to me to be a canny investment. At the very least, you'll end up with a hemp jacket out of it.

 

[GreyCrow]

I was wondering a couple of weeks ago how you were going with this. I think the last time it was mentioned you were looking for properties. Sounds like it's up and running. Seems to me to be a canny investment. At the very least, you'll end up with a hemp jacket out of it.

I hear its High risk High reward