Opinion Recruiting and List Management Team: Hamish Ogilvie, Justin Reid & Co

[Scorpus]

The previous thread on this was shut down by the moderation team for trolling by a certain poster, so here's attempt number 2

There have been lots of calls over the last few years to move on our recruiting team, and overhaul list management in general. I think the amount of drafting blunders have been building up, and we're not running at an above average strike rate later in the draft to make up for it.

It's also clear that our list management has made some pretty big mistakes in terms of contract length given to average or cooked players.

So is it time to move the heads of these departments on?

Ogilvie has been with the Crows since the end of the 2006 season, and has been recruiting manager since Matt Rendell "resigned" in 2012

Reid started as list manager during 2015, and transitioned fully into the role after David Noble departed for Brisbane in 2016

They are both the last remaining key staff members from the Rob Chapman era

 

[latinoheat]

This should get some robust discussion going !

 

[George Kramer]

They won’t move both at the same time so it’s the guy whose been there for longer and who hasn’t drafted us a decent midfield, developing ruck, enough decent KPF and KPD, decent small forwards and has blown first round picks.

 

[latinoheat]

I think before I move anyone on I’d like to have someone who is better than we currently have . Which recruiter would be available and has a better record than Hamish ? Genuinely interested if someone has done research in this area .

 

[Bazz_27]

I would rather the club say they are reviewing the recruiting and list management team and do a full review and see who has been responsible. Are we paying for previous coaches decisions? Previous football managers? Football directors? I have no issues with sacking both of them although I tend to think it would be rough on reid, who although he's made mistakes has been fairly short term to evaluate. Just firing blokes to make us feel better is also maybe not the answer. Who is the replacement? It's a pretty specific skill set. I voted Hamish, I'm a long time admirer but admit it appears he has made some bad decisions.

 

[Sanders]

Both should be sacked, weighted down with rocks and pushed off grange jetty pier.

 

[Danger in Texas]

They both feel a bit stale, don't they? Would be good to see a fresh set of eyes overseeing both operations sometime in the near future

Yes, both have made some credible moves and decisions over their time, but the mistakes they've made are large enough to override the good, I think

 

[Sanders]

I think before I move anyone on I’d like to have someone who is better than we currently have . Which recruiter would be available and has a better record than Hamish ? Genuinely interested if someone has done research in this area .

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result

I’m reminded of the Silicon Valley maxim, if you’re going to fail, fail fast.

They’ve failed. Move on. Hard & fast

 

[spenze]

Odds are with so many wrong picks he's bound to ace a draft soon if we stick tight with Hamish.*

I'm less a fan of Reid, we seem to have been hamstrung in our list management over the journey by the contracts he has handed out

* I'm happy to move both on, neither is shooting out the lights

 

[Danger in Texas]

Odds are with so many wrong picks he's bound to ace a draft soon if we stick tight with Hamish.*

I'm less a fan of Reid, we seem to have been hamstrung in our list management over the journey by the contracts he has handed out

* I'm happy to move both on, neither is shooting out the lights

Ehh, don't subscribe to this, even if the signs for Thilthorpe and Rachele are positive

Melbourne drafted Watts, Blease, Scully, Trengove, Gysberts, Lucas Cook, Toumpas with first round picks. They hire Jason Taylor... Salem, Petracca, Brayshaw, Oliver, Jackson, Pickett (admittedly some of this would be down to development and general club culture improvement, but I don't think it's a coincidence)

 

[dylan123]

Wonder how much was due to development. Seem to recall an important name or two retiring in recent years from our development department and that honestly seems to be the biggest issue. These high talented guys come in, but how much improvement do we see from them compared to when we drafted them? Once upon a time we were the club that would develop players to pass onto other clubs who would benefit from our hard work, can't recall that really happening to us in recent years.

That said, the haven't been a big fan of the profile of players we've drafted high for the most part for a little while now so that obviously needs work also imo.

Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

 

[Scorpus]

Here's the biggest issue for me

Since we took Jake Lever

8

Jake Lever

Age

28

Ht

194cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.6

4star

K

9.7

4star

HB

4.9

4star

M

5.4

5star

T

1.3

3star

MG

242.0

4star

D

9.6

2star

K

6.5

3star

HB

3.1

2star

M

3.9

4star

T

1.3

2star

MG

145.4

3star

D

16.0

4star

K

11.0

4star

HB

5.0

4star

M

6.6

5star

T

1.6

4star

MG

189.8

4star

in 2014, we haven't taken a single player worthy of the All Australian squad of 40

From our next pick after Lever in 2014 (pick 35) until now, there have been 15 drafted players that we had access to (had a pick before they were taken, and weren't Academy or F/S picks) that have made the AA squad and we haven't had a single one of them. Most teams have found one.

Since that same point we have traded in just 1 All Australian squad player (Seedsman) and lost 4 to other clubs (Dangerfield, Lever, Cameron, Lyons)

During that same period, 20 players in total have moved clubs and made the AA squad since moving.

So 35 available players have joined/moved clubs since we drafted Jake Lever

8

Jake Lever

Age

28

Ht

194cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.6

4star

K

9.7

4star

HB

4.9

4star

M

5.4

5star

T

1.3

3star

MG

242.0

4star

D

9.6

2star

K

6.5

3star

HB

3.1

2star

M

3.9

4star

T

1.3

2star

MG

145.4

3star

D

16.0

4star

K

11.0

4star

HB

5.0

4star

M

6.6

5star

T

1.6

4star

MG

189.8

4star

and made the All Australian squad at their new club. We gained 1 and lost 4, running at a net -3 players. In seven-ish years.

That's a collective draft and recruiting failure to find good players

 

[George Kramer]

We can talk development but then why do some make it and others not?

Also Hamish is the one drafting small players.

Finally, go through our drafting from the last 5 years. How many you confident are you really confident will be quality players and befitting their draft position?

Butts
Rachelle
Doedee
Thilthorpe
Cook


Soligo did look good on the weekend so hopefully he’s another

 

[jackster83]

Here's the biggest issue for me

Since we took Jake Lever in 2014, we haven't taken a single player worthy of the All Australian squad of 40

From our next pick after Lever in 2014 (pick 35) until now, there have been 15 drafted players that we had access to (had a pick before they were taken, and weren't Academy or F/S picks) that have made the AA squad and we haven't had a single one of them. Most teams have found one.

Since that same point we have traded in just 1 All Australian squad player (Seedsman) and lost 4 to other clubs (Dangerfield, Lever, Cameron, Lyons)

During that same period, 20 players in total have moved clubs and made the AA squad since moving.

So 35 available players have joined/moved clubs since we drafted Jake Lever and made the All Australian squad at their new club. We gained 1 and lost 4, running at a net -3 players. In seven-ish years.

That's a collective draft and recruiting failure to find good players

Is Milera the last player we drafted who made the 22 under 22 team?

 

[Mr_Moogle]

Hamish is generally only good at recruiting defenders and even then, he still managed to waste a top 10 pick on McAsey. His record for recruiting midfielders and forwards is an absolute disaster.

Reid is just kind of average but there is nothing worth clinging to there. He's had some wins, some losses. If he ends up collateral damage in a recruitment overhaul, who would really care?

 

[Scorpus]

Is Milera the last player we drafted who made the 22 under 22 team?

Technically it would be Tom Doedee

 

[George Kramer]

And then look at the lack of skill in our list, having said that I think they are making an effort to draft players who can kick over the last couple of years

 

[Mr_Moogle]

I don't think recent recruits like Thilthorpe or Rachele should even be a part of the discussion. It would take a few years for us to know the true quality of those players and who really wants Ogilvie to get a stay of execution while we work that out? I think we have a big enough sample size of what Hamish can deliver at this point and it's not good.

 

[Scorpus]

Here's the biggest issue for me

Since we took Jake Lever in 2014, we haven't taken a single player worthy of the All Australian squad of 40

From our next pick after Lever in 2014 (pick 35) until now, there have been 15 drafted players that we had access to (had a pick before they were taken, and weren't Academy or F/S picks) that have made the AA squad and we haven't had a single one of them. Most teams have found one.

Since that same point we have traded in just 1 All Australian squad player (Seedsman) and lost 4 to other clubs (Dangerfield, Lever, Cameron, Lyons)

During that same period, 20 players in total have moved clubs and made the AA squad since moving.

So 35 available players have joined/moved clubs since we drafted Jake Lever and made the All Australian squad at their new club. We gained 1 and lost 4, running at a net -3 players. In seven-ish years.

That's a collective draft and recruiting failure to find good players

This is what the other clubs look like, in terms of getting players we had access to

Geelong: +5 (Dangerfield, Menegola, Stewart, Ablett, Kelly) -1 (Caddy) = +4
Richmond: +4 (Butler, Lambert, Caddy, Prestia) -1 (Butler) = +3
Brisbane: +3 (Cameron, Lyons, Neale) = +3
Port Adelaide: +3 (Dixon, Butters, Aliir) = +3
Melbourne: +4 (Hibberd, Lever, Fritsch, May) -1 (Howe) = +3
Western Bulldogs: +3 (Dale, Daniel, Dunkley) -1 (Stringer) = +2
Essendon: +3 (Ridley, Smith, Stringer) -1 (Hibberd) = +2
St Kilda: +2 (Steele, Butler) = +2
Fremantle: +2 (Darcy, Ryan) -1 (Neale) = +1
Collingwood: +2 (Howe, Treloar) -1 (Seedsman) = +1
Hawthorn: +1 (Mitchell) = +1
West Coast: +1 (Ryan) = +1
North Melbourne: 0
Carlton: 0
Sydney: +1 (Papley) -2 (Mitchell, Aliir) = -1
GWS: -2 (Steele, Smith) = -2
Adelaide: +1 (Seedsman) -4 (Dangerfield, Lever, Cameron, Lyons) = -3
Gold Coast: -5 (Dixon, Lyons, Prestia, May) = -4

There is a pretty clear trend that better teams had a better net influx of good players than we did, with the same resources we had

Of course this doesn't include existing AA squad players that left but didn't win further AA squad awards, or any draft picks taken before the picks we had

 

[Golumless]

Odds are with so many wrong picks he's bound to ace a draft soon if we stick tight with Hamish.*

I'm less a fan of Reid, we seem to have been hamstrung in our list management over the journey by the contracts he has handed out

* I'm happy to move both on, neither is shooting out the lights

Considering Hamish career trajectory and just how unlucky his career has been*, you could almost wager his best draft will be whatever his last one was prior to being sacked.



* A lot of it deserved as he should have seen the writing on the wall and ran away from Adelaide in 2017, much like some of his best draft picks did.

 

[ABAB]

Odds are with so many wrong picks he's bound to ace a draft soon if we stick tight with Hamish.*

I'm less a fan of Reid, we seem to have been hamstrung in our list management over the journey by the contracts he has handed out

* I'm happy to move both on, neither is shooting out the lights

The last 2 drafts he has definitely nailed, the youngsters looking very good in the SANFL with Thilthorpe and Rachele both be elite.

 

[Bob Neil]

North had their entire recruiting team quit all at once…why do they get all the luck?!

 

[GreyCrow]

I can't wait for someone to post a ladder

 

[GreyCrow]

I think it's time for Hamish to go and Reid -whether controlled by the board or not - doesn't seem to understand the nuance of player contracts.

Which is odd given his previous role as a player manager.

Reid's first misstep was the Gibbs situation compounded by (in my opinion) long term contracts for anyone who even batted their eyes at him

 

[1970crow]

I think our problems run deeper and coaching, especially selection, has been our greatest issue. Overall strategy is up the $hitter, so I’d be looking at the committees that drive it. In terms of Reid, I recall that he needed more autonomy as being an outcome from the review.

Just looking at ROB’s contract. 5 years is too long but so is 1 year if you’re going to keep selecting despite poor on field output. His intensity at ground ball totally dried up, he finally gets dropped and he out-clearances the mids at SANFL level. We’ve allowed players to plateau too low because they got comfortable and for stupid reasons, we’re scared of dropping the selection axe on their necks.

Hamish is harder because even his worst picks of late were taken where they were largely rated to go. For a first year KPD I thought Fish showed enough at the level, Jones looked a very good mid on the way up but both these guys ended up looking like being dropped to the ammos playing in the roles they were drafted to play in the SANFL.

I won’t be surprised if Rachele flatlines if he goes back to develop in the 2s.

The first people to go would be anyone that played under Neil Craig or who’s employment was influenced by someone who played under him.

And any player who remains at the club who played under him is gone at end of year as well.