RECRUITING TEAM(whats going wrong?)

[Stiffy_18]

I still don't understand, Kenny was pick 75 in 98 draft and Pav was pick 4 in 99 draft??

Back in those days you were allowed to pick one 17 year old with one of your pick. When it came to our pick we were tossing up between McGregor and Pavlich and decided on McGregor based on a couple of things. Next year Pav went as a "normal" 18 year old. Rules have changed since then. Back then you were allowed to pick one "underage" player that was 17 where other picks had to be on 18+ year olds.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Another thing is that AFL.com have not got the right trade for Clarke and Welsh down.

The actual trade was Pick 6 and Pick 21 for Clarke and Pick 15. We then ontraded that pick 15 and pick 77 to Kangaroos for Scott Welsh. Kangaroos used that pick in the Colbert trade. Geelong selected Spriggs with pick 15.

Certainly looks a lot fairer than the picture AFL paint with their error. I don't think that was a bad trade at all.

 

[CaptainDangerfield]

While I agree Adelaide was a little unlucky with not being able to have all of its stars playing due to injury i.e Stevens , Welsh & Carey. I think some finger pointing at Ayres is warranted.

He overrided advice to go for Cornes and instead went for Angwin. Gave up pick 12 for Bode and they got S Burgoyne and at the end of the day the Carey experiment did not work and hence he has to take some responsbility for it and Pick 4 was upgraded to Pick 2 due to Carlton saga, so hence we did miss out on Wells.

So thanks to Ayres and Reid we wasted 3 top 16 picks on duds. The thing that amazes me most, is if you listen to interviews with Ayres, he still thinks he did a great job at the AFC.

 

[baaaallllll]

So thanks to Ayres and Reid we wasted 3 top 16 picks on duds. The thing that amazes me most, is if you listen to interviews with Ayres, he still thinks he did a great job at the AFC.

If you listen to Ayres, his own poo has a nice fragant wet oak flavour with a touch of sea mist moisture about it.

 

[Bockchoy67]

I have said that with the list we have and a few good choices we can be a contender in 2007 but I think we need to either develop a gun CHF or recruit one.. Klug was great but no gun Robran ditto and Stevens is to injury prone ..needs more meat.

If you look at the teams who won flags after 98 you will see one constant feature...a dominant CHF (apart from Essendon) Lucas good but not dominant

Someone like J Brown or a W Tredrea or a younger W Carey

Were not far away people

Once Fergus Watts adds muscle to his body and gains more experience at AFL level, I'm near-certain he'll develop into the CHF we crave.

Whether he becomes a star will be up to him. His attitude at this stage suggests he has a bright future.

 

[tribey]

97 Draft

17 Lance Picione
33 James Thiessen
49 Ian Perrie
Trades
Nathan Basset from Melb for Mathew Collins and Brent Williams
Mark Stevens for McCartney (Kangas)
Ian Downsborough for Chalmers (Port)

And what about 1996?

Tom Gilligan, Brett James, Chad Rintoul, Barry Standfield, Sudjai Cook, Tim Cook, etc?

 

[tribey]

Just on those glossing over Blight's quite frankly p-poor recruiting record.

Yes he won flags but he did so with clay provided him by Cornes and Shaw - and unlike Robert Shaw in 95 and 96, Blight had the luxury of a fit Shaun Rehn for 1997 and 1998.

When Rehn went down in '99 so did the club - to then what was our worst ever finish - and Blight threw his toys out of the cot, walking away citing burn-out, and leaving the club in a far worse state than in which he found it, before being miraculously cured a year later by the Saints' million dollar offer.

Quite frankly, if not for Robert Shaw we'd be Fremantle.

In just 2 years of miracle drafting and recruiting he procured:

Kane Johnson
Tyson Edwards
Simon Goodwin
Andrew McLeod
Peter Vardy
Matthew Collins - Who we traded later for Nathan Bassett
Brent Williams - See above
Jason McCartney - Who we traded later for Mark Stevens
Darren Jarman
Kym Koster
Peter Caven
Matthew Connell
Troy Bond

Now that the lustre and mythology of those two glory years is rapidly fading into memory - especially with Port's current success - I hope we can start looking with a little bit more objectivity at the club's history.

Blight turned out to be very good for our club - but so did Robert Shaw.

Neither man is infallible, but I think it's time their legacies were judged a little bit more fairly and honestly.

 

[noddy]

Just on those glossing over Blight's quite frankly p-poor recruiting record.

Yes he won flags but he did so with clay provided him by Cornes and Shaw - and unlike Robert Shaw in 95 and 96, Blight had the luxury of a fit Shaun Rehn for 1997 and 1998.

When Rehn went down in '99 so did the club - to then what was our worst ever finish - and Blight threw his toys out of the cot, walking away citing burn-out, and leaving the club in a far worse state than in which he found it, before being miraculously cured a year later by the Saints' million dollar offer.

Quite frankly, if not for Robert Shaw we'd be Fremantle.

In just 2 years of miracle drafting and recruiting he procured:


Kane Johnson
Tyson Edwards
Simon Goodwin
Andrew McLeod
Peter Vardy
Matthew Collins - Who we traded later for Nathan Bassett
Brent Williams - See above
Jason McCartney - Who we traded later for Mark Stevens
Darren Jarman
Kym Koster
Peter Caven
Matthew Connell
Troy Bond

Now that the lustre and mythology of those two glory years is rapidly fading into memory - especially with Port's current success - I hope we can start looking with a little bit more objectivity at the club's history.

Blight turned out to be very good for our club - but so did Robert Shaw.

Neither man is infallible, but I think it's time their legacies were judged a little bit more fairly and honestly.

Agree whole heartedly on the Shaw years in regards to recruiting but from many people that were involved with the club he stuffed up in the coaching dept.

Same can be said for Blighty just in reverse.

I don't quite see what your on about in our two premierships being put back to some distant memory bank now that the Port Power has won a flag
what's the connection in that??

 

[theorangeapple]

sorry to intrude, but do u guys actually know these coaches over ruled the recruiting team. i no at the eagles, the coach has very little say, its the best available in the eyes of the recruiting manager. its only when the recruiting guy cant split them that the coach has some input.

 

[jc67]

sorry to intrude, but do u guys actually know these coaches over ruled the recruiting team. i no at the eagles, the coach has very little say, its the best available in the eyes of the recruiting manager. its only when the recruiting guy cant split them that the coach has some input.

Ayres definatly over ruled everthing football.
Blight set perrameters.
Shaw left them to it.
Cornes was envolved after kerley left.

 

[tribey]

I don't quite see what your on about in our two premierships being put back to some distant memory bank now that the Port Power has won a flag
what's the connection in that??

In 1999 I'd go to games and watch away games on tele that we'd p|ss up the wall. During and afterwards I'd be absolutely livid that the threepeat wouldn't even be a rough chance (ie. finishing in the top 50% of the comp to attempt another September miracle) let alone a distinct possibility.

After the loss to Richmond at Footy Park - the one where the Giesch and his boys sang the song drenched in the middle - and the second half capitulation to the Lions later that year I was told on more than one occasion, "you can't win it every year" and "oh well... we've still got 2 flags"... and this is before we mention Blight's criminal treatment of the team and Lucas Herbert against the Bullies, when we blew an 8 goal 3-qtr-time lead - thanks to a stuffed Matty Robran getting jumped all over by Luke Darcy in the middle - because Lucas was being 'taught a lesson.'

1997 and 1998 should've passed into history as soon as 1999 came along.

That's why great teams are dominant - success breeds more success.

Instead we seem to keep hanging our hat on them whenever disaster strikes, instead of lusting after new glories. Since the final siren blew at the G in 1998, the Kangaroos, Essendon, Port Adelaide and the Brisbane Lions x 3 have all drank at the Premiership well.

2002 aside, we haven't even looked close.

My mention of Port Adelaide is that of seeing it as a reality check. The choke gags are redundant and the "we've got two Premierships" jibe (why haven't we been able to take advantage of their previous failures and make it "three Premierships"?) could well go the same way by this time next year.

Resting on your laurels is pointless - just ask any Liverpool fan - and I think that in the main, the Adelaide Football Club has rested about 7 years too long.

 

[Crow-mosone]

Funny

I thought the Kangaroos got to use this as the 2nd pick & got Dan Wells.

It was the number 2 pick matey. Spin it as much as you want, but when push comes to shove it was the 2nd pick & we gave up a potential 200+ game player for a key forward who played 20 odd games & wasn't able to hold down key a forward position.

Don't tell me that Adelaide & Richmond had no idea that this pick was going to go from 4 to 2. It was widely tipped that Carlton were going to loose their early draft picks. If Adelaide & Richmond did not give this consideration then they are in even worse shape than I fear.

it might be convenient to think like that, perhaps it serves your purposes, but it's plainly not true.

don't let that hold you back however, revisionism is always in vogue.

 

[tribey]

it might be convenient to think like that, perhaps it serves your purposes, but it's plainly not true.

don't let that hold you back however, revisionism is always in vogue.

The well-worn draft pick issue aside, your thoughts on chasing Carey over Pavlich?

 

[tztommo]

sorry to intrude, but do u guys actually know these coaches over ruled the recruiting team. i no at the eagles, the coach has very little say, its the best available in the eyes of the recruiting manager. its only when the recruiting guy cant split them that the coach has some input.

of course the recruiting team would have a say but the coach coaches the team and to do so he would want to have most of the say as for the players they want.
coaches coach a side and when they recruit they go for players that they need in the team and that they can coach.

tommy

 

[CaptainDangerfield]

In 1999 I'd go to games and watch away games on tele that we'd p|ss up the wall. During and afterwards I'd be absolutely livid that the threepeat wouldn't even be a rough chance (ie. finishing in the top 50% of the comp to attempt another September miracle) let alone a distinct possibility.

After the loss to Richmond at Footy Park - the one where the Giesch and his boys sang the song drenched in the middle - and the second half capitulation to the Lions later that year I was told on more than one occasion, "you can't win it every year" and "oh well... we've still got 2 flags"... and this is before we mention Blight's criminal treatment of the team and Lucas Herbert against the Bullies, when we blew an 8 goal 3-qtr-time lead - thanks to a stuffed Matty Robran getting jumped all over by Luke Darcy in the middle - because Lucas was being 'taught a lesson.'

1997 and 1998 should've passed into history as soon as 1999 came along.

That's why great teams are dominant - success breeds more success.

Instead we seem to keep hanging our hat on them whenever disaster strikes, instead of lusting after new glories. Since the final siren blew at the G in 1998, the Kangaroos, Essendon, Port Adelaide and the Brisbane Lions x 3 have all drank at the Premiership well.

2002 aside, we haven't even looked close.

My mention of Port Adelaide is that of seeing it as a reality check. The choke gags are redundant and the "we've got two Premierships" jibe (why haven't we been able to take advantage of their previous failures and make it "three Premierships"?) could well go the same way by this time next year.

Resting on your laurels is pointless - just ask any Liverpool fan - and I think that in the main, the Adelaide Football Club has rested about 7 years too long.

.......and that covers it in a nutshell. We have gone backwards. It is though we have been in a premiership induced slumber for the past 7 years. Instead of saying "we have won 2, other teams haven't won any", we need to regain our pre-premiership hunger. Some really poor recruiting/drafting hasn't helped. But on a positive note, I think we are heading in the right direction at least we can now admit we have made mistakes ie recruiting, drafting, re-signing Gary " bloody hell i'm good, just ask me" Ayres.

 

[tztommo]

i agree fully 'springchoke'

 

[CaptainDangerfield]

i agree fully 'springchoke'

and this is where players such as Monfries will come in handy...I hear his commitment and desire to be the best is not too dissimilar from K Cornes.

 

[Crow-mosone]

The well-worn draft pick issue aside, your thoughts on chasing Carey over Pavlich?

honestly?

am a bit surprised, but I can see the logic. We needed a chf for the 'big push', going to take jerry at the line, say what.

Pavlich has gotten his hands high enough above his head to scratch his ears in 2 years. bloody good player, but still has defined his proper use to a team - even now. Though that was perhaps not relevant or known at the time.

We were looking to get over the line for another flag, and the carey we envisaged was the better choice. he was a proper chf, perhaps the greatest ever, had a year off for a his body to rest, and he had that bit of mongrel we lacked. feeding off Mark Stevens and Scott Welsh, it would have been an interesting set-up.

We obviously felt pavlich couldn't do the same for us, and hindsight has probably proven that correct. It's also shown us a few others things about that theory.

The age benefit of pavlich shouldn't be discounted, and I absolutely agree with anyone who thinks it should have been the key factor. Myself, I am prepared to look at the structural, immediate side of things, but the age argument is compelling. i.e. I am ok with taking Carey, don't know if I would have made that choice myself. hard to say.

what I am not convinced about is the actual nature of the choice, in that did we actually have the ability to choose one or the other? Pav and Maxy were playing funny buggers all season long, with the sealed envelope highest bidding garbage. Were we getting mixed messages, if we did get a positive indication from them, did we believe them?
More importantly, if we did get positive overtures from pav and co. were we already too far down the carey path by that stage?

I think it's very easy for a player to commit to the AFC right now, because if we say we will get it done, we can point to those deals. If we had been dancing with Carey for a while, it could have all backfired if we left him in the lurch and started to court Pav. Carey had already committed to the AFC, Pav is still all talk who knows if he really would have come? Talk is cheap.

Without all the information to hand, my gut feeling is that they probably took the right option.

 

[noddy]

1997 and 1998 should've passed into history as soon as 1999 came along.

That's why great teams are dominant - success breeds more success.

.

Agree with most of your other points concerning 99 & what followed.

But surely 97 & 98 are the high light of our short history & we have every reason to look back on those years with pride ?

& us as Crow supporters having tasted the nectar of those wins should crave for more & more surely that is the norm.

Granted success breeds success but also i'm pretty sure every great club & it's supporters (including Port Adelaide) likes to look back on their history no matter how short that history is & reflect with pride on what they have achieved.

 

[tribey]

Agree with most of your other points concerning 99 & what followed.

But surely 97 & 98 are the high light of our short history & we have every reason to look back on those years with pride ?

No doubt you look back on it with pride - half the clubs in the league would kill for our overall record from 1991-onwards - but I feel a lot of supporters and possibly even some at the club (speculating) viewed the back2back as 'mission accomplished' or as some sort of security blanket, rather than taking greater strides to write even more pages of glory in the AFC history book.

 

[tribey]

honestly?

am a bit surprised, but I can see the logic. We needed a chf for the 'big push', going to take jerry at the line, say what.

We were looking to get over the line for another flag, and the carey we envisaged was the better choice. he was a proper chf, perhaps the greatest ever, had a year off for a his body to rest, and he had that bit of mongrel we lacked. feeding off Mark Stevens and Scott Welsh, it would have been an interesting set-up.

We obviously felt pavlich couldn't do the same for us, and hindsight has probably proven that correct. It's also shown us a few others things about that theory.

The age benefit of pavlich shouldn't be discounted, and I absolutely agree with anyone who thinks it should have been the key factor. Myself, I am prepared to look at the structural, immediate side of things, but the age argument is compelling. i.e. I am ok with taking Carey, don't know if I would have made that choice myself. hard to say.

what I am not convinced about is the actual nature of the choice, in that did we actually have the ability to choose one or the other? Pav and Maxy were playing funny buggers all season long, with the sealed envelope highest bidding garbage. Were we getting mixed messages, if we did get a positive indication from them, did we believe them?
More importantly, if we did get positive overtures from pav and co. were we already too far down the carey path by that stage?

I think it's very easy for a player to commit to the AFC right now, because if we say we will get it done, we can point to those deals. If we had been dancing with Carey for a while, it could have all backfired if we left him in the lurch and started to court Pav. Carey had already committed to the AFC, Pav is still all talk who knows if he really would have come? Talk is cheap.

Without all the information to hand, my gut feeling is that they probably took the right option.

Fair enough.

 

[tztommo]

as a crows supporter i want to be seing the crows in the top 4 or at least the 8 constantly. we are one of the richest clubs and i want to see adelaide having a long and proud history. we have plenty of supporters and can afford the resources to be able to bring up youngsters and build great club vacillities.

tommy

 

[tribey]

as a crows supporter i want to be seing the crows in the top 4 or at least the 8 constantly. we are one of the richest clubs and i want to see adelaide having a long and proud history. we have plenty of supporters and can afford the resources to be able to bring up youngsters and build great club vacillities.

tommy

Thanks to Chairmen Oakley, Jackson and Demetriou our money is no good, Comrade.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Just on those glossing over Blight's quite frankly p-poor recruiting record.

Yes he won flags but he did so with clay provided him by Cornes and Shaw - and unlike Robert Shaw in 95 and 96, Blight had the luxury of a fit Shaun Rehn for 1997 and 1998.

When Rehn went down in '99 so did the club - to then what was our worst ever finish - and Blight threw his toys out of the cot, walking away citing burn-out, and leaving the club in a far worse state than in which he found it, before being miraculously cured a year later by the Saints' million dollar offer.

Quite frankly, if not for Robert Shaw we'd be Fremantle.

In just 2 years of miracle drafting and recruiting he procured:

Kane Johnson
Tyson Edwards
Simon Goodwin
Andrew McLeod
Peter Vardy
Matthew Collins - Who we traded later for Nathan Bassett
Brent Williams - See above
Jason McCartney - Who we traded later for Mark Stevens
Darren Jarman
Kym Koster
Peter Caven
Matthew Connell
Troy Bond

Now that the lustre and mythology of those two glory years is rapidly fading into memory - especially with Port's current success - I hope we can start looking with a little bit more objectivity at the club's history.

Blight turned out to be very good for our club - but so did Robert Shaw.

Neither man is infallible, but I think it's time their legacies were judged a little bit more fairly and honestly.

Nail. Hammer. Head.

Excellent post.

 

[blighty]

I agree with many of the thoughts expressed here...& am convinced we've been not only inept in recruiting but uncompetitive...
Think about this...
Francou won the first of his Magarey Medals & was available in at least 4 drafts before picked up by Port Adelaide...
Primus was playing for Norwood before Port were admitted & we had ruck shortages & yet we overlooked him.
Roger James was there under our nose!
Brogan was invited to a preseason with us & completed it & yet ended up at Port.....
Pavlich was an underage champion all through his football years...yet the story goes they overlooked him because McGregor had played a handful of SANFL games & supposedly was a more immediate prospect than Pavlich who at that stage was playing with SHC in students grade....the Pavlich case demonstrates without any question coaches should have virtually no say in recruitment....simply because they will always think SHORT TERM...repeated years later with the Angwin episode & Carey & Burns deal[although I agreed with it at the time]...
In more recent seasons we've sat on our hands while Schammer, Thompson,Harris Cooney Faulkner Waters,Butler Rivers Mackie etc etc have all left the state & we've barely raised a yelp...hopelessly uncompetitive....
I remember when Essendon traded three players to get Mathew Lloyd as a 17 year old....and Malthouse traded the farm[inc Downsborough !] to get Gardiner....my point is this we've NEVER EVER BITTEN the BULLET...& traded ruthlessly to get something better...We allowed a dud like
Sampson to screw us around in 1998 when Collingwood were prepared to trade pick 4 or something similar for three borderline players....and it continues to this day.........
We made no effort to keep Cooney,and all the others who present as far better players, for having gone interstate.
Do we honestly believe Mackie 's talents were known at Adelaide?

We've been far too loyal to players who've returned bugger all ! and certainly NOT RUTHLESS enough...
Think of these players....do we really think they are worth something?
Gallagher
Bassett
Perrie
Doughty
Bode
Massie
Ladhams
Shirley
Stevens
Skipworth
in all the trade talk are any of these blokes on the radar?
Would any of them present a threat if we played against them?
None of them is worth a patch on the players who I've mentioned above, yet we could have traded anyone of or a combination for at least a chance at a higher draft pick...
Now we are dealing with the 5th or 6th homesick player wanting to go home.
We've bought so much of this on ourselves because we've consisently over rated our talent & haven't demanded enough from the mediocrity we've recuited, & culled them as soon as we recognised the mistakes made.
So far I've seen nothing which suggests we will do it any better!