Refresh V Rebuild the cause of the angst?

Despite sparring with the likes of Ernie and the Professor thier angst and thoughts towards the current coach are in allot of ways understandable. My 'opinion' is the board brought all of this on in their justification of not offering Rocket a new contract and appointing Macca.

David Smorgon was emphatic all all press releases that the list merely needed a refresh and not a rebuild. The was despite the fact that just about every knowledgeable football expert, commentator and even Stevie Wonder could see that after a few years crack at a flag and coming up short the list did need a full rebuild.

There was no major opposition to Rocket being offered a contract amoung any stakeholders within the club with the exception of the board. My opinion at the time and it still holds is that Eade should have been offerred a 3 year contract to give him time to begin a rebuild and show some signs of progress.

After reading Chris Grants comments in the Age article today it is clear that the board clearly knew there was some short term pain ahead and a full rebuild was necessary. They clearly beleived Rocket was unable to complete this rebuild and brought in a known developer in Macca as coach.

If the club was up front from the start, admitted they understood the parlous state of the list most of the debates would not be happening now as it would be acknowledged our list was in fact in terrible position due to poor results from the draft 2005 to 2009.

My opinion is they got this, and many things wrong since Campbell Rose left, and it is hard to prove you are heading in the right direction when you never articulated the direction you were heading in in the first place. Refresh v Rebuild two words causing allot of angst
 
I think you are right, understand why they did what they did as they didn't want membership etc affected saying we are going down the bottom for 3-4 years etc even though anyone with half a football brain could see that was going to happen, but it has probably caused more trouble than it saved.
 
I'm well past the refresh stuff.
It's the results, the game style and lack of improvement that are causing angst.
So therefore when Chris Grant says we are only 18 months into a complete rebuild which is still a couple of years away from results you are saying he is wrong? You agree with David Smorgons comments that the list was strong and only needed a refresh?

This thread is about the board being upfront about where the list was when Eade's contract was not renewed and its justification when it appointed Macca, and how by not being upfront it has placed the club on the back foot when it is in a position they actually expected to be. Its not about whther Macca can and should be coach, we all know your stand on that
 

ErnieSigley

Norm Smith Medallist
Feb 20, 2005
8,054
887
Australia
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Yes Grant is wrong. The rebuild started earlier.
Great player, person and club man but wrong here.
Wrong on making the Bmac choice and wrong the latest 'we are ahead of GC'

We needed a list rebuild but didn't have to bottom out this far.
 
Yes Grant is wrong. The rebuild started earlier.
Great player, person and club man but wrong here.
Wrong on making the Bmac choice and wrong the latest 'we are ahead of GC'

We needed a list rebuild but didn't have to bottom out this far.
So are you saying that the board should have not taken the members for fools and talked about a refresh when it was clearly a rebuild per the premise of this thread?

We disagree on Macca, but in 18 months time this could change, no point going over old ground here.

Do you agree Eade should have been offered a 3 year contract, the minimum required in a rebuild, to continue the complete rebuild he started in 2011? If so do you agree the board being disengenuos at the time has added to your angst?
 

ErnieSigley

Norm Smith Medallist
Feb 20, 2005
8,054
887
Australia
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
So are you saying that the board should have not taken the members for fools and talked about a refresh when it was clearly a rebuild per the premise of this thread?

We disagree on Macca, but in 18 months time this could change, no point going over old ground here.

Do you agree Eade should have been offered a 3 year contract, the minimum required in a rebuild, to continue the complete rebuild he started in 2011? If so do you agree the board being disengenuos at the time has added to your angst?
Yes I agree Eade should not have been let go.
Not sure what its got to do with the angst now.
Nor the refresh comment.
It was upseting then but they are in the past, it's what's happening now that's causing the current angst.
 
Aug 14, 2001
10,336
17,952
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Yes I agree Eade should not have been let go.
Not sure what its got to do with the angst now.
Nor the refresh comment.
It was upseting then but they are in the past, it's what's happening now that's causing the current angst.
Agree, it's poor results that are causing angst. Most accepted that we would not be a finals side for a few years. No one expected that we'd be in GWS/Melb territory, which our win/loss and percentage is approaching. I'd expected we would still bump off one or two mid-table sides and easily account for cellar dwellers. Now we are one. It's not what McCartney said would happen and I can understand others being so critical.
 

Dazb86

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 31, 2008
15,901
13,400
melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
The not winning is causing the angst.

That and the fact it seems the game is moving away from winning the contested ball. Which we've based our game plan on and drafted accordingly.
 
It's probably just me but in my view there are scarier words than 'refresh' and 'rebuild'. For example, 'merge or die' and 'Greater Western Sydney Bulldogs' also have a rather unpleasant tone. Aren't the two expansion clubs just stalking horses for the AFL's vision of a rationalised competition? Give them a bland identity then get them up and running to the point where they can absorb another club.
 

Unnamed1

Club Legend
Jun 26, 2007
1,887
1,097
Australia
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Peel Chunder
The not winning is causing the angst.

That and the fact it seems the game is moving away from winning the contested ball. Which we've based our game plan on and drafted accordingly.
Have we drafted accordingly?

I don't think any of Goodes, Stringer, Macrae or Hunter have been drafted for contested ball. Nor were the rookie upgrades Campbell or JJ. Hrovat could fall into that category, but we picked him up because he was too good to refuse and fell to us. In Prudden's case, he's an inside mid but a speccy pick. Stevens hasn't been used as inside (instead he's been on HBF or a wing), and Lower as a tagger - again, not as a ball winner (both Stevens and Lower were also brought in to bridge a perceived age gap).

In recent years I think only Libba Jr and Wallis Jr have fallen into this category - and we weren't exactly going to let them go to another home. In 2011 only Clay Smith and Lin Jong (another speccy) fell into the category

I'm also not convinced that the contested ball game plan is actually our long term game plan. I think he's just drumming basic things in now as stage 1, not to mention playing to the strengths of the cattle we have. Obviously next stage needs to be DE% based!!! But the issues BMac is facing now has less to do with his drafting decisions, and more to do with those of his predecessors (Eade & Clayton).
 
Have we drafted accordingly?

I'm also not convinced that the contested ball game plan is actually our long term game plan. I think he's just drumming basic things in now as stage 1, not to mention playing to the strengths of the cattle we have. Obviously next stage needs to be DE% based!!! But the issues BMac is facing now has less to do with his drafting decisions, and more to do with those of his predecessors (Eade & Clayton).
I beleive it is unfair to tar Eade with this brush. He may have been 1 year too late with the rebuild but 2010 was the final crack with the list we had and after being so close in 2009 I do not blame him.

He had either 9 or 10 first gamers in 2011 so to say he was not aware of the state of the list AND was beginning to do something about it is not right. My opinion at the time and remains that he had earnt the right to rebuild over 3 years, those in power disagreed. My issue with that decision was it was misleading to say the best. We needed a rebuild, we were always going to sink to the depths of 2003 and 2004 as we went one year too many in hindsight, but there were unrealistic expectations placed on the new coach due to the messages quite strongly being put out by the board at the time as the basis for their decision
 

Unnamed1

Club Legend
Jun 26, 2007
1,887
1,097
Australia
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Peel Chunder
I beleive it is unfair to tar Eade with this brush. He may have been 1 year too late with the rebuild but 2010 was the final crack with the list we had and after being so close in 2009 I do not blame him.

He had either 9 or 10 first gamers in 2011 so to say he was not aware of the state of the list AND was beginning to do something about it is not right. My opinion at the time and remains that he had earnt the right to rebuild over 3 years, those in power disagreed. My issue with that decision was it was misleading to say the best. We needed a rebuild, we were always going to sink to the depths of 2003 and 2004 as we went one year too many in hindsight, but there were unrealistic expectations placed on the new coach due to the messages quite strongly being put out by the board at the time as the basis for their decision
Yes both those he selected in drafts for the years have not come on particularly well. even if he put game time in them - that's why we are left where we are now. None of that is Bmac's fault.
 

Dazb86

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 31, 2008
15,901
13,400
melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Have we drafted accordingly?

I don't think any of Goodes, Stringer, Macrae or Hunter have been drafted for contested ball. Nor were the rookie upgrades Campbell or JJ. Hrovat could fall into that category, but we picked him up because he was too good to refuse and fell to us. In Prudden's case, he's an inside mid but a speccy pick. Stevens hasn't been used as inside (instead he's been on HBF or a wing), and Lower as a tagger - again, not as a ball winner (both Stevens and Lower were also brought in to bridge a perceived age gap).

In recent years I think only Libba Jr and Wallis Jr have fallen into this category - and we weren't exactly going to let them go to another home. In 2011 only Clay Smith and Lin Jong (another speccy) fell into the category

I'm also not convinced that the contested ball game plan is actually our long term game plan. I think he's just drumming basic things in now as stage 1, not to mention playing to the strengths of the cattle we have. Obviously next stage needs to be DE% based!!! But the issues BMac is facing now has less to do with his drafting decisions, and more to do with those of his predecessors (Eade & Clayton).

From the players you've mentioned 9 of them are midfielders. 6 are inside and 3 are outside/HFF's. A split of 70/30. We probably didn't need any more inside types after the acquisition of Smith. Stevens is very much an inside pick. We are playing him out of his natural position in the hope to turn him into something else. Lower the same.

That being said if Howard, Sherman, Djekuerra, Veszpremi and Tutt weren't busts it wouldn't matter.
 
Stevens is very much an inside pick. We are playing him out of his natural position in the hope to turn him into something else. Lower the same.
Stevens said at the start of the year his natural game was always being an outside mid, but he bulked up and played an inside role as he battled OP. Said he'd like to play more outside again.
 
Aug 15, 2006
13,328
3,953
.
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
I don't buy that Eade lost the players. The well publicised love/hate relationship between Rocket and Lake produced one of the best full backs of the past 25 years yet when Macca took over Lake leaves. I can only assume that when people talk about Eade losing the players they are referring to the older players(Surely it wasn't Libba or Wallis as 18 year olds)? The same older players that are going backwards under Macca?

The backline has been absolutely gutted. Hargrave, Gilbee and Lake all leave in the same month. Draft in 29 year old zero gamer - Brett Goodes to fill in gap.

Sherman(outside mid 100 game+ player) contract torn up and replaced by Lower(40 game inside mid). Both 26 year olds.

Essendon got Goddard.
Richmond got Chaplin and Knights.
Collingwood got Lynch.
Geelong got Rivers.
Port Adelaide got Monfries.
West Coast got Wellingham
Melbourne got Dawes
Heck even Hawthorn got an All-Australian full back.

Every single one of those players is in our best 18 and more important to us than another inside mid.

We went backwards despite surely having more salary cap space than any of these clubs and we did it deliberately. Why? Because we're aiming at 2015+. I can guarantee you that Geelong, Collingwood, Sydney ect are also aiming at 2015 but the difference is they give a s**t about 2013 too.
 

Dazb86

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 31, 2008
15,901
13,400
melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Stevens said at the start of the year his natural game was always being an outside mid, but he bulked up and played an inside role as he battled OP. Said he'd like to play more outside again.

Strengths


> Good all-round ball winning skills– 18.6dpg at 2009 U18 Championships level, 25dpg at 2009 TAC Cup level – he can play both inside (get 1st hands quite frequently) and out, but I don’t think he stands out at either (mainly due to his middle of the road decision making and disposal) – he will most likely become a genuine workhorse hard ball getter with no frills or possibly even a big bodied defensive midfielder that can get the ball ala Ling(this would be the role he should be developed in IMO)
> Very strong, well balanced and keeps his feet well - rarely brought down in a tackle
> Good height for a midfielder/flanker and strong body – large, lean build for an U18 – definite AFL ready (if fit) next season
> Good level of production and consistency both throughout a game and game by game – has the ability to step it up in the bigger games/rise to the occassion
> Good overall work-rate in both directions – is a ferocious tackler that will ground opponents in close, but doesn’t possess the pace to run down players – I think he has good running capacity when at full fitness


Weaknesses


> Pace-wise off the mark he seemed a bit below average off the mark (at full fitness possibly OK?) at the championships but over distance he was OK – doesn’t seem to possess any significant evasive ability
> Overall disposal seems to be somewhat lacking in hurt factor (compared to other top prospects at least) and doesn’t possess any above average decision making ability
 

Leon

Norm Smith Medallist
Jan 13, 2004
8,319
13,566
Bound for Germany 2006!
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Harry's Heroes
With regards to Eade, I rate him as a tactician and coach as probably the best we've had in my time supporting the club, but I'm not convinced it was the wrong decision to get rid of him (and I'm as skeptical of McCartney as anyone right now)

I very much believe that if we'd kept Eade we still would have sucked in 2012 and 2013 - maybe not as much as we have under McCartney but we still would have been bad.

If we had have signed Eade up again and still were s**t, the calls for his head (and for Smorgon and the board etc) would have been even fiercer than the ones currently for McCartney. Sometimes a coach has simply run his race at a footy club and that's where I reckon the club decided with him.

Does anyone else think that maybe (and I don't necessarily believe this but it's possible) that when the club decided not to renew Eade's contract it was in part because he thought we could still contend in the next few years and that we didn't need to rebuild/refresh? That's also a reason I believe they might have taken the view that Eade had run his race.
 

Contador

Club Legend
Aug 24, 2009
1,267
1,922
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
The only real question here is whether you think a coach should be given more than a season and a half to implement a rebuild. If you give a guy a three year contract, and with most likely at least a five year plan to get back to the top, what does sacking him after a year and a half achieve?

Agree, it's poor results that are causing angst. Most accepted that we would not be a finals side for a few years. No one expected that we'd be in GWS/Melb territory, which our win/loss and percentage is approaching. I'd expected we would still bump off one or two mid-table sides and easily account for cellar dwellers.

We're 8 rounds in, have bumped off one mid-table side (Brisbane) and are yet to play the cellar dwellers (Melbourne, GWS).
 
You are going to have to highlight that post.
I'm just going off what he said himself. I can't remember if it was in a video or article, but it wasn't long after we traded for him.
 

Unnamed1

Club Legend
Jun 26, 2007
1,887
1,097
Australia
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Peel Chunder
From the players you've mentioned 9 of them are midfielders. 6 are inside and 3 are outside/HFF's. A split of 70/30. We probably didn't need any more inside types after the acquisition of Smith. Stevens is very much an inside pick. We are playing him out of his natural position in the hope to turn him into something else. Lower the same.

That being said if Howard, Sherman, Djekuerra, Veszpremi and Tutt weren't busts it wouldn't matter.
Yes but there were plenty of players drafted that I didn't mention! Austin, Redpath, Pearce, Roberts etc etc - I was just pointing out exceptions...
 
Aug 15, 2006
13,328
3,953
.
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
The only real question here is whether you think a coach should be given more than a season and a half to implement a rebuild. If you give a guy a three year contract, and with most likely at least a five year plan to get back to the top, what does sacking him after a year and a half achieve?

I think it's time for those that get defensive of Brendan McCartney to stop pulling out the sackin is not option card. I don't think there are any knowledgeable people on this board that want Macca sacked this season so it's moot point. Nobody in the media, who are assaulting us right now are suggesting this.

We want to discuss where we(he/club) went wrong and what we can do to fix. Everyone makes mistakes and I get the impression that Macca is a quick learner and likely to see the error in his decisions.
 
Aug 14, 2001
10,336
17,952
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
The only real question here is whether you think a coach should be given more than a season and a half to implement a rebuild. If you give a guy a three year contract, and with most likely at least a five year plan to get back to the top, what does sacking him after a year and a half achieve?



We're 8 rounds in, have bumped off one mid-table side (Brisbane) and are yet to play the cellar dwellers (Melbourne, GWS).
Brisbane is a poor side this year. They may have been mid-table last year but are unlikely to be this year.

I fully expect us to beat Melbourne and GWS. If we don't then we'll go into meltdown. Who else, however, do we expect to beat? I remain hopeful we will take it up to St Kilda and Port (who have cooled a bit the last few weeks). If we lose to them then we are likely to finish 16th. That makes us cellar dwellers.

I'm not a doomsayer and I don't say McCartney should be sacked. The reality is that we would have, at the start of the season, expected to beat Gold Coast and give North a good shake at the least. People will say we pushed North but reality is that we lost by close enough to 10 goals in the end. We are not performing any better than last year despite the addition of four mature bodies and an extra pre-season for our youngsters. That at the very least justifies angst.
 
Back