Reid - "Crows in middle of a 4 year rebuild."

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MRB37

Brownlow Medallist
May 17, 2009
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As part of his interview with the Rooch, Chappy said this:

“So we are in a reset. We made that decision at the end of last year – we publicly said as much but perhaps we did not communicate it well enough.”

So according to our chairman the rebuild started a few months ago, it's far from being in the middle.

Add to that this little gem:

“We threw everything at 2017 and did not get the premiership,” Chapman said. “Then we backed the team to get the job done in 2018. And we made mistakes."

“People will point to list management. And they will do that with the benefit of hindsight. But that list management (under Justin Reid’s watch from 2015) put us in a grand final."

Good to see he is still trying to cover his butt while going in to bat for Roo's mates and rewriting history in the process, apparently willing to give credit for other people's work who already assembled about 90% of that team.

Change can't happen quickly enough from the very top down.

What absolute horseshit. The hard work of our list build was done by David Noble as list manager and Matt Rendell as recruitment manager.
 

MRB37

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Plenty weren’t happy with those trades, I was certainly one that was vocal on all 3 of them and Seed.

Wasn’t really rocket science. They’d all played about 30-40 odd games, couldn’t establish themselves in crap teams and were playing reserves regularly. Seed a possible exception as Collingwood were competitive at least.

Menzel and Hampton were rubbish to distract from the Danger trade debacle

Could never understand the excitement.
We had a clear method of recruitment from other teams, find guys who aren't/can't establish themselves in their best 22 and hope they turn it around. It worked with guys like Sam Jacobs, Josh Jenkins, Tom Lynch and Kyle Cheney, it also failed on guys like Lewis Johnston, Richard Tambling, Angus Graham, Luke Lowden, Curtly Hampton and Troy Menzel.

Getting Menz and Hampton fit in perfectly with what Noble had done in the past with reclamation projects. He overpaid for 'em, especially Hampton, but that has always been one of Noble's weaknesses in he gives too much and takes too little at the trade table.
 

Vader

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We had a clear method of recruitment from other teams, find guys who aren't/can't establish themselves in their best 22 and hope they turn it around. It worked with guys like Sam Jacobs, Josh Jenkins, Tom Lynch and Kyle Cheney, it also failed on guys like Lewis Johnston, Richard Tambling, Angus Graham, Luke Lowden, Curtly Hampton and Troy Menzel.

Getting Menz and Hampton fit in perfectly with what Noble had done in the past with reclamation projects. He overpaid for 'em, especially Hampton, but that has always been one of Noble's weaknesses in he gives too much and takes too little at the trade table.
I'm not sure that Lowden & Graham should be classed as "failed". They did exactly the job we signed them to do - sit in the SANFL as a backup, in case something should happen to Jacobs. Nothing ever did happen to Jacobs.
 

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Samcro24

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Oct 28, 2014
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Plenty weren’t happy with those trades, I was certainly one that was vocal on all 3 of them and Seed.

Wasn’t really rocket science. They’d all played about 30-40 odd games, couldn’t establish themselves in crap teams and were playing reserves regularly. Seed a possible exception as Collingwood were competitive at least.

Menzel and Hampton were rubbish to distract from the Danger trade debacle

Could never understand the excitement.
Hmmm...Menzel, Hampton, naturally gifted but questions over work ethic. No surprise they failed here. Like I posted last night we can't work with that type of player.
 

Scorpus

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I had no problem with the Menzel trade as I thought he had genuinely elite talent, getting him for a second round pick was reasonable for an ex-first round draftee. Too bad his work ethic was garbage.

However I wasn't sold on Seedsman given his mediocre record at Collingwood, and thought we overpaid for Hampton
 

MRB37

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I had no problem with the Menzel trade as I thought he had genuinely elite talent, getting him for a second round pick was reasonable for an ex-first round draftee. Too bad his work ethic was garbage.

However I wasn't sold on Seedsman given his mediocre record at Collingwood, and thought we overpaid for Hampton
GWS had all but made it clear they had zero intention of keeping Hampton around as they had 3 1st round academy players to bring in, but said "Oh gee whiz, we might need some points for next year, can you give us a 2nd rounder?" and Noble with his "Keep good trade relations" strategy said "Sure thing!". Should have offered them a 4th rounder and that was it.
 

King Elvis

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So... you want to start a rebuild when we're sitting 7th on the ladder, with a 6-4 record (after R10 2018)? :drunk:

That's the thing with 20/20 hindsight. We know now that this was the turning point, and the beginning of the end. It was far from obvious at R10 2018.

It wasn't even obvious at the end of 2018, given that many people (including myself) thought that the latter half of 2018 was the result of a Burton-created injury streak, and that we could return to being competitive in 2019 if we had a better run with injuries.

Even at R13 2019, we were still sitting 4th with an 8-5 record. There were cracks beginning to show, but the true horror show had not yet begun.

At what point did it become truly obvious that the party was over, and that a full rebuild was required? Probably around R16-17 2019, when the players had clearly given up and were refusing to play at all after half-time.

While we can see now, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, that the jig was up in 2018, that's information which just wasn't available to the club going through it in real-time. For those going through it in real-time, not looking back through the prism of history, it really only became apparent around 2/3 of the way through 2019.
You’re choosing to ignore the compete and utter turmoil our Club was in?
 

Vader

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You’re choosing to ignore the compete and utter turmoil our Club was in?
Well that's an interesting spin to put on things...

Burton should never have been hired in the first place, given the sheer incompetence he showed (and damage he did) at Brisbane. Chapman should have resigned after Pondscum-gate... but that's not a reason for rebuilding the playing list while it still appears to be in functioning order.

The fact is that there was still a reasonable expectation of making the finals as recently as R13 2019, at which point we were 4th with an 8-5 record. Everything since that date has been varying shades of awful, but there really was no justification for starting a playing-list rebuild prior to that date. It was only really 3-4 games after the mid-season break last year that it was undeniably apparent that things were broken beyond repair.
 

Tex200

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GWS had all but made it clear they had zero intention of keeping Hampton around as they had 3 1st round academy players to bring in, but said "Oh gee whiz, we might need some points for next year, can you give us a 2nd rounder?" and Noble with his "Keep good trade relations" strategy said "Sure thing!". Should have offered them a 4th rounder and that was it.
Outrageous paying 2nds for all of them. Then through the out door later go Lyons, Greenwood for peanuts. Hell we only got a 2nd for Keath and he was established best 22 in AA discussions!

Trading has been a joke like most things in the last decade.
 

MRB37

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Outrageous paying 2nds for all of them. Then through the out door later go Lyons, Greenwood for peanuts. Hell we only got a 2nd for Keath and he was established best 22 in AA discussions!

Trading has been a joke like most things in the last decade.
It is crazy when you think about it. We gave up Pick #38 for Hampton coming off of playing only 5 games in 2 years where he averaged 12 disposals across half-back in 2015 and didn't play AFL in 2016 and got Pick #43 for Jarryd Lyons coming off of a year he averaged 21 disposals, 5 tackles, 4 clearances and almost a goal a game over an entire year and about pick 40 for Greenwood now averaging 15 disposals, 8 tackles (leading the AFL) and 5 clearances.
 

Bay62

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Well that's an interesting spin to put on things...

Burton should never have been hired in the first place, given the sheer incompetence he showed (and damage he did) at Brisbane. Chapman should have resigned after Pondscum-gate... but that's not a reason for rebuilding the playing list while it still appears to be in functioning order.

The fact is that there was still a reasonable expectation of making the finals as recently as R13 2019, at which point we were 4th with an 8-5 record. Everything since that date has been varying shades of awful, but there really was no justification for starting a playing-list rebuild prior to that date. It was only really 3-4 games after the mid-season break last year that it was undeniably apparent that things were broken beyond repair.
Agreed. After the GF loss the club has a decision to make - do we try again with the same set up next year or is it time to rebuild and reset?

We made a lot of mistakes with who was doing what, Burton, hamstrings, the camp, lack of new blood etc - but I don’t think it was unreasonable, after a strong 2017 season but a terrible GF performance, to say “Let’s go again and try to go one better next year.”

I think that’s what most clubs would have done. It’s the basis of the saying “The way to win a grand final is to lose a grand final” - to go through a loss and learn what it takes to win it, then back up again in the next two years. That 3 year window is what every club aims at.

The club is rightly criticized for HOW they did that, and some heads have rolled as a result, and others need to. But like Vader says, What they tried to do in going again, and Why they did that, I think was reasonable on the face of it at the time.
 

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King Elvis

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Well that's an interesting spin to put on things...

Burton should never have been hired in the first place, given the sheer incompetence he showed (and damage he did) at Brisbane. Chapman should have resigned after Pondscum-gate... but that's not a reason for rebuilding the playing list while it still appears to be in functioning order.

The fact is that there was still a reasonable expectation of making the finals as recently as R13 2019, at which point we were 4th with an 8-5 record. Everything since that date has been varying shades of awful, but there really was no justification for starting a playing-list rebuild prior to that date. It was only really 3-4 games after the mid-season break last year that it was undeniably apparent that things were broken beyond repair.
Not an interesting spin at all.

It's clear there were massive problems upon our return in 2018 - those inside of the Club should've been aware of it, because the mumblings were everywhere that things were right.

These are meant to be professionals - it's pissweak to give them an excuse because we 'were in contention' - when things were imploding.
 

Vader

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Not an interesting spin at all.

It's clear there were massive problems upon our return in 2018 - those inside of the Club should've been aware of it, because the mumblings were everywhere that things were right.

These are meant to be professionals - it's pissweak to give them an excuse because we 'were in contention' - when things were imploding.
Yes, there was massive internal turmoil. That doesn't mean that it's time to start a ground-up rebuild oof the team list.
 

1970crow

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We don't agree on many of the debatable topics, but I'm with Vader here. Given we reached a GF, albeit with not a great number of H/A wins, then made easily identifiable cock ups, I don't think it was a massive mistake to not go the nuclear rebuild route. The greatest error IMO, is continuing to select based around experience and continuity, but that's a club philosophy not a list management issue. Even now, we're doing very little more than the absolute minimum in terms of choosing to play kids. And kids are still being shunted to peripheral roles. Our defensive unit hasn't changed at all despite being fairly responsible for the rebound ball not spending more time further up the ground. Football philosophy failed us then and that is a continuing issue.
 

Sack Chapman

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Murray2503

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The scary thing, is that Im not even sure the Crows have hit rock bottom yet. Its going to get a lot lot worse, before it gets better.
How can you truly start a rebuild until the people who put us in this position are out of the club? Until they are gone it's merely more mismanagement disguused as a rebuild.
 

Southerntakeover

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We don't agree on many of the debatable topics, but I'm with Vader here. Given we reached a GF, albeit with not a great number of H/A wins, then made easily identifiable cock ups, I don't think it was a massive mistake to not go the nuclear rebuild route. The greatest error IMO, is continuing to select based around experience and continuity, but that's a club philosophy not a list management issue. Even now, we're doing very little more than the absolute minimum in terms of choosing to play kids. And kids are still being shunted to peripheral roles. Our defensive unit hasn't changed at all despite being fairly responsible for the rebound ball not spending more time further up the ground. Football philosophy failed us then and that is a continuing issue.
Do you factor the super draft into your consideration?
 

1970crow

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Do you factor the super draft into your consideration?
What I've read and heard was that we tried to get St Kildas pick. Gallagher was on tv saying he'd need our 2 firsts plus another to trade up their's. Suns were never parting with either 2 or 3 as they got a pair of SA lads which may assist with their retention issue. I take Peter J's point that 12 months out we had the currency to try and trade into gold coasts first knowing it woukd give us a fair crack at one of the SA lads. But we went with Gibbs instead. And we needed enough for Fog as well. No doubt we've made lots of mistakes, but I'm not convinced it's realistic to expect the list to start being dismantled after the GF loss. I rate Rozee, but my money is not on him being worth Jones plus 2 firsts. The Gibbs focus if it cost us a crack at Luko or Rankine is the primary failure. I'd have happily traded JJ or Lynch end of 2017, but there's not many others I'd have considered.
 

Southerntakeover

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What I've read and heard was that we tried to get St Kildas pick. Gallagher was on tv saying he'd need our 2 firsts plus another to trade up their's. Suns were never parting with either 2 or 3 as they got a pair of SA lads which may assist with their retention issue. I take Peter J's point that 12 months out we had the currency to try and trade into gold coasts first knowing it woukd give us a fair crack at one of the SA lads. But we went with Gibbs instead. And we needed enough for Fog as well. No doubt we've made lots of mistakes, but I'm not convinced it's realistic to expect the list to start being dismantled after the GF loss. I rate Rozee, but my money is not on him being worth Jones plus 2 firsts. The Gibbs focus if it cost us a crack at Luko or Rankine is the primary failure. I'd have happily traded JJ or Lynch end of 2017, but there's not many others I'd have considered.
Why not set the market with regard to the deal that we know that Port could cut? We could have had the currency with relatively low pain moves like: not re-signing Lynch.

There is a very very good chance that Rozee will have a career as good or better than Jones, McHenry, and McAsey combined. One elite player is worth far more than three alrights.
 

Kezza86

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Why not set the market with regard to the deal that we know that Port could cut? We could have had the currency with relatively low pain moves like: not re-signing Lynch.

There is a very very good chance that Rozee will have a career as good or better than Jones, McHenry, and McAsey combined. One elite player is worth far more than three alrights.
Exactly, I harped on stating Crows should target Rozee. He would have been perfect in the Crows midfield atm.
 

Vader

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It's amazing the number of people on this board who think that if you watch the movie again, the ending will change.
No, we just don't think that it was possible to know the ending 5 minutes into the movie.

Did you guess that Vader was Luke's father, when he was still running around on Dagobar, learning how to be a Jedi?
 

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