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My partner does, I can't speak for the billion plus people left over... What your insinuating is false anyway, my point is it shouldn't happen and isn't allowed, not that it doesn't happen because that would be ignorant of me...
my initial comment was more along the lines of a religion any religion dictating do's and don't when common sense show how absurd it can be
my point re: muslim women is more along the lines of inequality: I know it is a generalisation and I am sure you and your wife treat each other as equals however I don't know if that is the case in the majority
 

Moe B

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my initial comment was more along the lines of a religion any religion dictating do's and don't when common sense show how absurd it can be
my point re: muslim women is more along the lines of inequality: I know it is a generalisation and I am sure you and your wife treat each other as equals however I don't know if that is the case in the majority
Isn't that men all around the world that are treating woman unfairly? Why is it just muslim men? Like you said, you generalized therefore the argument has no substance or fact... Do we treat our woman disrespectfuly if we want to dress them decently to protect them from men?? How is that perceived as oppression if firstly the woman agrees and secondly trying to protect them? The world's perception of islam is sooo far away from what it really is regardless of media propaganda... You might think yeah yeah whatever but it is the truth, from our point of view anyway..
 

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Isn't that men all around the world that are treating woman unfairly? Why is it just muslim men? Like you said, you generalized therefore the argument has no substance or fact... Do we treat our woman disrespectfuly if we want to dress them decently to protect them from men?? How is that perceived as oppression if firstly the woman agrees and secondly trying to protect them? The world's perception of islam is sooo far away from what it really is regardless of media propaganda... You might think yeah yeah whatever but it is the truth, from our point of view anyway..
I'm conflicted about the Muslim coverings that women wear. On one hand, I know fiercely independent Muslim women who choose to cover up because they firmly believe that it's modest and that they should do so. On the other hand, I don't believe that women need 'protection from men' and I certainly don't believe that wearing coverings should be required of anyone. I would rather men be more respectful of women (I don't mean not look at them, because that's unrealistic, but certainly less violence and harassment...and no, I don't mean 'all men') than women have to hide their bodies.

I suppose that while I would never dream of wearing hijab/niqab/etc unless in a country that required it, who am I to tell other women not to?
 

Moe B

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I'm conflicted about the Muslim coverings that women wear. On one hand, I know fiercely independent Muslim women who choose to cover up because they firmly believe that it's modest and that they should do so. On the other hand, I don't believe that women need 'protection from men' and I certainly don't believe that wearing coverings should be required of anyone. I would rather men be more respectful of women (I don't mean not look at them, because that's unrealistic, but certainly less violence and harassment...and no, I don't mean 'all men') than women have to hide their bodies.

I suppose that while I would never dream of wearing hijab/niqab/etc unless in a country that required it, who am I to tell other women not to?
Religiously women don't need to wear the niqab and especially living in aus I don't think they should, if they do by choice then fine, but to force is totally wrong, all the muslims I know agree with that... Maybe because i don't know any extremists, which btw take things in the quran quite literally, especially because the scripture they read from is not relevant to this day and age...
 

Moe B

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Just watched the last third of the Lennox vs Dawkins debate and as hard as I wanted to side with Lennox to fight my own understanding, I just couldn't.
Why? His whole foundation for argument is grounded in, "I believe", "For me", and many I, I, I's. Personal biases are way too influential for the sake of the debate and some will side with him because it reflects what they want to hear and as much as his delivery may we well massaged, the content is very shallow. No pantsing of Dawkins here, I'm afraid to say. :)
Isn't it the exact same with atheists accepting and hearing what they want to hear though harks? You know the "live your life to the fullest" quote or the "you only live once" one? Meaning do whatever you want now because there's no ultimate justice later, just a pointless lifestyle and life therefore we carry on with the motions for no obvious reason, does not sound right at all in all honesty... I'm debating against the fact that life was a big accident, That we came from monkeys, that we live on a planet that coincidently fits us perfectly, that we have a sun that warms up the earth just enough for us to survive, or trees that provide oxygen, this is all random?? No intelligent design? If only people looked a little deeper to see what we see, because I promise you harks, it's beautiful on this side...
 

Moe B

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Btw I did not mean to sound so condescending in that post but trying to express myself honestly... I hope you don't take offence to any of it! :)
 
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Great post HARKER
I have a slightly personal question, if I may, so feel free to just not answer, if you like. How have you approached religion with your daughter? I was baptised as a small child only to get me into the Catholic school (because the local public school in Deniliquin was terrible) but apart from that my parents let my brother and I explore religion as much or as little as we wanted. My mum is agnostic and my dad strongly identifies as atheist, but I remained Catholic until my early twenties. My brother tried synagogues, mosques, churches, even the church of scientology, before just accepting that he is agnostic.

I agree that beliefs shouldn't be pushed onto anyone, especially an impressionable child, but I'm curious about how one covers it or discusses it with their child/children?
 
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I couldn't baptize her as much as my mother wanted me to and this caused heat between us.
Came to a point I had to insist...and I mean insist...that it doesn't get raised any more.

My daughter knew what was going on, as mum got into her ear but I told my daughter to do what was right for her and if she 'chose' religion then fine.
She didn't choose religion and it hasn't made her a worse person for it. She got her morals from more important places........from within.
That's exactly the attitude my parents had; that you don't need religion to be a good person. I am grateful that they allowed me to have my own experiences and make my own choices, because at the time my 'faith' got me through a few tough times. It wasn't until I got older and allowed myself to become more open-minded that I realised that I couldn't reconcile my personal beliefs and morals with the teachings of the church...and then I explored more and more and realised that I don't believe in a god at all, really.
 

Moe B

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I don't care about atheists per se.
I care for the pursuit of the truth and science is a wonderful conduit as a means to that end.
Science evolves and isn't grounded in any ancient mans stories. It is happy to be proven wrong in its quest to be right.

People will have morals and some haven't. Going to church or praying at home doesn't resign you to being a moral individual.
We may have needed guidance (?) 2000 years ago, but we don't need it now, or at least any self-thinking individual shouldn't.

.......and this brings me to why I don't like religions, for our race as a whole.
The most wonderful organ we have isn't between our legs.........it's nestled gently within our cranium and for that organ to be manipulated upon from birth, isn't becoming of our human race. In fact, it's quite disgusting, forcing ones will upon another and that's not just about religion.....and then in particular upon a malleable young mind. Teaching someone what to think and not how to think......Terrible.

How do I know this? Because religion was drummed into me and I did all the things a good little catholic boy had to do, until at about 11 years of age, I summoned the courage to say that I couldn't go to church any more. Why? Even at that early age, lying to myself was killing me and it had to stop.
Fortunately, I wasn't kicked out of home, nor ostracized by family and friends for doing so, as I may have been in other religions. Family wasn't happy and I was accepted for being the black sheep, which suited me just fine.

Just on your final point about beauty and I'm repeating this again but: I'd sooner live a miserable truth than a beautiful lie.
We're all different.
Science is happy to be proven wrong because it's always changing and some of it is just garbage, how can people not beleive in god but yet believe in evolution? That's also faith because it's not observable evidence? Has a species ever changed it's kind before ever? You claimed certainty once again saying you'd rather live a miserable truth then living a beautiful lie? Are you 100% certain that that is true? Are you leaning towards the easier route through life that requires you to do nothing but die at the end? We come back to the ultimate justice point, we are living for absolutely nothing, being created by absolutely nothing, doesn't that sound odd to you? Even more odd then that there is a god/creator? What your saying is everything on earth has been coincidently put together at random and just happened to be perfect? And then WE came with these organs that allow us to think, breathe and move... Has something ever come from nothing? Even science will say no, it kind of contradicts itself... How did Muhhamed pbuh know about the woman's embryo? To give the detailed description in the quran would mean he would've had to open up a pregnant woman every day to see the progression for 9 months, that is crazy and certainly did not happen... The quran is also a good source of science, cosmology, zoology and many other things that have been proven to be right, not bad predictions from a man that was illiterate, he was also the first person ever to call earth a sphere and ever expanding, how was he to know that? How was he to know anything really? Not believing in intelligent design just doesn't add up for me Harks...
 

Moe B

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It's not an easier route. It's a very considered one and one I've had to come to terms with for the reasons I've already outlined.

You're suggesting I should believe in a creator, but which one exactly.....there are just so many of them and why should your creator be 'the' creator?
Dawkins uses Darwin as a cornerstone to all his main points and to date no-one is dissing Darwin as a waste of space.........not even Lennox, so then why is that all such a mystery and why should it be explained by mythology?
I'm not saying any more than what Dawkins said through the debate you pointed me towards and that is; Just because we can't understand everything now, doesn't mean we should paint in all the gaps with magic. Should we?

O.K. let's for a minute 'believe' in create design and I'm not totally against the concept......but whose creative design?
Are all religions right in that their designer is 'the designer' or is that the exclusive right of the religion that we've chosen/been forced to, follow?

There have been many good sources of science, cosmology, biology and well before the quran came to be. Science evolves along with the tools that we have at our disposal to push the boundaries. It's just the way it is and it would be fair to say that we'll be somewhat more knowledgable in science 100 years from now, than for where we currently sit.

I can see a day when religion will no longer be wanted/needed/enforced....etc. I'm just sorry I won't be living in that age. :)
Harks when you say which creator, we also have an explanation for that, the god of the torah and the bible are the same god, the reason we don't follow their texts is because of corruption, god reveals this in the quran saying this is the final revelation that's free of corruption... Islam is only growing so saying religion will one day be obselete or redundant doesn't seem possible from our point of you... All the points you make are valid and knowledgeable which is a good learning curve for me, maybe reading relevant texts from the quran will do you good, as in understanding it better and maybe it can show you something along the way... Enjoying discussing this with you mate as you have opened up my a eyes a little from someone elses perspective, I hope I've done the same for you, at the end of the day knowledge is power and I'm trying to learn everyday...
 

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Moe, have been reading your religious posts with interest. Haven't read all of them, but was curious as to whether you were born Muslim or whether you decided to become Muslim.

I've been fortunate to travel / backpack through a number of countries, many Muslim. I was amazed at the dedication a whole nation of people can have towards a religion. Remember bus trips in Pakistan taking forever with ALL passengers getting off the bus to pray to Allah, six times a day if need be. Remember people without much happy to give me their last piece of food. The stereo types of Muslims often presented in the western media is annoying, ie. rather than saying "Terrorist" people still jump into "Fundamental Muslim" which is garbage - never heard the IRA being referred to as "Fundamental Catholics."

I was born and raised a Catholic. Have lapsed. My concern on many religions is that it separates things into "good" and "evil," including (especially) Catholicism. Also, it is based on guilt, ie. if you don't do the "right thing" as defined by the Church you'll burn in hell. Don't get me wrong, very much believe in helping those who need help and respecting other people's opinions, but have a real problem that if someone doesn't believe what someone else says they should believe then the afterlife won't be much fun (for what it's worth not sure if there's an afterlife).

Was interested in Buddhism a few years back. Speaking generally here, it has some core beliefs but nothing like many other religions or discourses. Generally speaking, it's about exploring and understanding yourself to realize nirvana during a lifetime. Everyone is different, so realizing your own spiritual awakening during life will differ from person to person (unlike Catholicism which relies on many doctrines). Think this is very important, because spiritually satisfied tends to make you feel happier, a be a better person to be around. When I say "spiritual" I mean understanding oneself and genuinely being at peace with oneself. Buddhists use meditation, which can be very effective. Think this can be done in other ways, eg. yoga, even playing music & surfing. Hell, for some it may be playing football - remember Judd in his book saying he wanted to be a state of none complication on the field, on automatic pilot.

So, back to the original question, it seems you chose to become a Muslim rather than born, correct?
 

Moe B

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Moe, have been reading your religious posts with interest. Haven't read all of them, but was curious as to whether you were born Muslim or whether you decided to become Muslim.

I've been fortunate to travel / backpack through a number of countries, many Muslim. I was amazed at the dedication a whole nation of people can have towards a religion. Remember bus trips in Pakistan taking forever with ALL passengers getting off the bus to pray to Allah, six times a day if need be. Remember people without much happy to give me their last piece of food. The stereo types of Muslims often presented in the western media is annoying, ie. rather than saying "Terrorist" people still jump into "Fundamental Muslim" which is garbage - never heard the IRA being referred to as "Fundamental Catholics."

I was born and raised a Catholic. Have lapsed. My concern on many religions is that it separates things into "good" and "evil," including (especially) Catholicism. Also, it is based on guilt, ie. if you don't do the "right thing" as defined by the Church you'll burn in hell. Don't get me wrong, very much believe in helping those who need help and respecting other people's opinions, but have a real problem that if someone doesn't believe what someone else says they should believe then the afterlife won't be much fun (for what it's worth not sure if there's an afterlife).

Was interested in Buddhism a few years back. Speaking generally here, it has some core beliefs but nothing like many other religions or discourses. Generally speaking, it's about exploring and understanding yourself to realize nirvana during a lifetime. Everyone is different, so realizing your own spiritual awakening during life will differ from person to person (unlike Catholicism which relies on many doctrines). Think this is very important, because spiritually satisfied tends to make you feel happier, a be a better person to be around. When I say "spiritual" I mean understanding oneself and genuinely being at peace with oneself. Buddhists use meditation, which can be very effective. Think this can be done in other ways, eg. yoga, even playing music & surfing. Hell, for some it may be playing football - remember Judd in his book saying he wanted to be a state of none complication on the field, on automatic pilot.

So, back to the original question, it seems you chose to become a Muslim rather than born, correct?
Hey mate, no I was born a muslim.. Islam actually encourages you to not be close minded and to explore and then ultimately choosing what ever conclusion you have, I chose to remain muslim due to it making sense, scientific statements that have been proved correct really helped the decision, islam is religion that teaches you to be kind, loving, respectful and most of all charitable to people in need, I've said earlier that the western perception is way off, sharia law in saudi for example is not the same as the sharia in Turkey but it seems to get painted with same brush, saudis harsh laws and penalties are cultural and not religion based, it seems as though a lot of people don't get that... What we see on tv is so wrong, don't get me wrong there are lunatics out there but it's not the religion that makes them this way, you've seen it first-hand right? Buddhism is more a way of life, the perception of them is all about peace and love, have you seen what they do to muslims in myanmar? It's horrific, but then again they're not all like that, that's why social and mainstream media is kept away from me and my family, most of it is untrue and pushes an agenda, hope I haven't done your head in :)
 

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Cheers Moe,

thanks for the reply

All good, you haven't done my head in. For what it's worth I ain't a Buddhist but I think it makes a lot of sense.

Pretty much don't follow any particular religion / discourse, but do have some beliefs on how to live. I do like surfing!

you raise an interesting point (Myanmar), where religion becomes dangerous is when it's abused by some for their own political ends. can't think of a religion which hasn't fallen foul of this. religion has probably been the cause of more wars than any other reason. it's been very much abused
 

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Cheers Moe,

thanks for the reply

All good, you haven't done my head in. For what it's worth I ain't a Buddhist but I think it makes a lot of sense.

Pretty much don't follow any particular religion / discourse, but do have some beliefs on how to live. I do like surfing!

you raise an interesting point (Myanmar), where religion becomes dangerous is when it's abused by some for their own political ends. can't think of a religion which hasn't fallen foul of this. religion has probably been the cause of more wars than any other reason. it's been very much abused
Correct, and I totally disagree with it... If we're going to talk about major wars, I'd say politics is mostly to blame, the thing is our religion teaches to defend ourselves but to never be the aggressor... So it's not ignorant to war but never encourages you to go that way! I'm no expert in the war discussion but that's how I see it... All I know is, is that the US get involved in a lot of war and killings of innocent people and getting away with it and doesn't cop much flack if any at all... You would expect the people of that country to go mental and take things into their own hands which then inevitably makes them "terrorists". What would you do if somebody hurt someone from your family and doing it to many others on a daily basis? This is why people see islam in the way they do, harsh, aggressive and full of hate... It's totally the opposite I can tell you
 
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..... religion has probably been the cause of more wars than any other reason. it's been very much abused
I disagree with that KnobHead, I think it is more likely that religion is used as the cover of many wars when it is more likely that power or money is the ultimate goal.
 

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I disagree with that KnobHead, I think it is more likely that religion is used as the cover of many wars when it is more likely that power or money is the ultimate goal.

hi blustreak, if you check my paragraph it talks about how religion has been abused for political ends.

i do think it's only ever a few that want war - most just want to get on with living. but there have been a lot of wars fought in the name of religion, which makes it easier to get crowd support, so to speak.

historically, a lot of religious leaders have supported war, including the pope at times - no doubt for political reasons.
 
Isn't that men all around the world that are treating woman unfairly? Why is it just muslim men? Like you said, you generalized therefore the argument has no substance or fact... Do we treat our woman disrespectfuly if we want to dress them decently to protect them from men?? How is that perceived as oppression if firstly the woman agrees and secondly trying to protect them? The world's perception of islam is sooo far away from what it really is regardless of media propaganda... You might think yeah yeah whatever but it is the truth, from our point of view anyway..
Why should women need protection from men? Is that not the fault of the men
Why should a wife be covered when the man struts around in a singlet
Surely if the men were spiritually strong the women would not be at threat
No substance or fact
When my wife goes out running in Lycra good luck trying to catch her but the view will be outstanding
Saying that the prick he just got caught in Perth stealing 4 year olds from a care facility should be castrated in front of all gods
 

Moe B

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Why should women need protection from men? Is that not the fault of the men
Why should a wife be covered when the man struts around in a singlet
Surely if the men were spiritually strong the women would not be at threat
No substance or fact
When my wife goes out running in Lycra good luck trying to catch her but the view will be outstanding
Saying that the prick he just got caught in Perth stealing 4 year olds from a care facility should be castrated in front of all gods
Dude what world are you living in? I'm not saying it's the woman's fault but it's just the way it is, I'd love a world without rape and harassment but that would be ultra ignorant of me for thinking that it is, A lot of men can't handle themselves, that doesn't make it her fault and plus I never said that, being covered will certainly help her cause though, because no matter what race, religion or country your from, there's sex offenders wherever you go... Point is there's a lot more chance of a woman wearing "lycra" of getting harassed then a woman wearing loose clothes and a scarf, is that not the SAD truth?
 
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Dude what world are you living in? I'm not saying it's the woman's fault but it's just the way it is, I'd love a world without rape and harassment but that would be ultra ignorant of me for thinking that it is, A lot of men can't handle themselves, that doesn't make it her fault and plus I never said that, being covered will certainly help her cause though, because no matter what race, religion or country your from, there's sex offenders wherever you go... Point is there's a lot more chance of a woman wearing "lycra" of getting harassed then a woman wearing loose clothes and a scarf, is that not the SAD truth?
No, it's not. I know a heck of a lot of women who have been sexually assaulted or harassed...not many of them were wearing lycra, I can tell you. I myself was wearing my school uniform.

I'll find a source when I'm on my computer, but I'm sure the thought that clothing contributes to assault has been thoroughly refuted.

Edit: here's one.

As it turns out, there’s some research that suggests women are less likely to be assaulted if they wear provocative clothing. In a paper titled ‘Sexy dressing revisited: does target dress play a part in sexual harassment cases?’ (pdf) Theresa Beiner writes:

While people perceive dress to have an impact on who is assaulted, studies of rapists suggest that victim attire is not a significant factor. Instead, rapists look for signs of passiveness and submissiveness, which, studies suggest, are more likely to coincide with more body-concealing clothing. (140) In a study to test whether males could determine whether women were high or low in passiveness and submissiveness, Richards and her colleagues found that men, using only nonverbal appearance cues, could accurately assess which women were passive and submissive versus those who were dominant and assertive. (141) Clothing was one of the key cues: "Those females high in passivity and submissiveness (i.e., those at greatest risk for victimization) wore noticeably more body-concealing clothing (i.e., high necklines, long pants and sleeves, multiple layers)." (142) This suggests that men equate body-concealing clothing with passive and submissive qualities, which are qualities that rapists look for in victims. Thus, those who wore provocative clothes would not be viewed as passive or submissive, and would be less likely to be victims of assault.
http://clubtroppo.com.au/2011/05/17/does-provocative-clothing-protect-women-against-rape/
 
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The Halal debate about Islam bothers me. Well it bothers me in that people seem to think it's supposed to be crueller/meaner to the animals, when the fact is, it's meant to be the most humane/painless way of slaughtering an animal for meat preparation..

Unfortunately we have naive and uneducated nuff nuffs like Jacqui Lambie publically decrying Halal meat and all the gullible sheep seem to flock to her cause.

People really need to see videos of how McDonalds and KFC slaughter their livestock and then think twice about complaining about Halal meat Imo.
 
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The Halal debate about Islam bothers me. Well it bothers me in that people seem to think it's supposed to be crueller/meaner to the animals, when the fact is, it's meant to be the most humane/painless way of slaughtering an animal for meat preparation..

Unfortunately we have naive and uneducated nuff nuffs like Jacqui Lambie publically decrying Halal meat and all the gullible sheep seem to flock to her cause.

People really need to see videos of how McDonalds and KFC slaughter their livestock and then think twice about complaining about Halal meat Imo.
Nothing wrong with halal meat, I agree. It's just something for ignorant people to get their knickers in a twist over.

I know someone who won't eat halal certified but has no problem using cosmetics that are tested on animals, so her 'animal cruelty' s**t holds zero value.
 

Moe B

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No, it's not. I know a heck of a lot of women who have been sexually assaulted or harassed...not many of them were wearing lycra, I can tell you. I myself was wearing my school uniform.

I'll find a source when I'm on my computer, but I'm sure the thought that clothing contributes to assault has been thoroughly refuted.
What?? I was using lycra as an example for my reply to bg who mentioned it. So your telling me there's no difference between a girl that wears loose clothes and covers her head and a girl that wears everyday clothes and doesn't? Even I know it's way what's more attractive... I'm not talking about any clothing vs clothing, I'm talking about islamic clothes vs Jill Meagher clothes for example, Wear whatever you like, I don't really care but please don't compare the 2 as if they would influence an attack the same!! I'm sorry to hear about your case and may that person rot in hell, I hate hearing things like that and annoys me but there are animals out there!!
 
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What?? I was using lycra as an example for my reply to bg who mentioned it. So your telling me there's no difference between a girl that wears loose clothes and covers her head and a girl that wears everyday clothes and doesn't? Even I know it's way what's more attractive... I'm not talking about any clothing vs clothing, I'm talking about islamic clothes vs Jill Meagher clothes for example, Wear whatever you like, I don't really care but please don't compare the 2 as if they would influence an attack the same!! I'm sorry to hear about your case and may that person rot in hell, I hate hearing things like that and annoys me but there are animals out there!!
Rape isn't about attractiveness, it's about control.
I have edited my post and included some more information.
 

Moe B

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The Halal debate about Islam bothers me. Well it bothers me in that people seem to think it's supposed to be crueller/meaner to the animals, when the fact is, it's meant to be the most humane/painless way of slaughtering an animal for meat preparation..

Unfortunately we have naive and uneducated nuff nuffs like Jacqui Lambie publically decrying Halal meat and all the gullible sheep seem to flock to her cause.

People really need to see videos of how McDonalds and KFC slaughter their livestock and then think twice about complaining about Halal meat Imo.
Correct, there really is no difference, just a few words that need to be said and that's it, still the exact same meat just sacrificed differently... Jackie Lambie has no idea, sometimes I think wow her husband is a lucky bloke, always angry, someone give her a halal big mac and let her settle down...
 

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