Religion Religions and rudeness.

jason pm

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Would it be fair to concede the possibility of the existence of some form of spirituality which is not fully or even partly understood?

Not necessarily a specific deity as such, more a type of consciousness (if that's the right word even) that "faith" is attempting to make sense of?

See the thing with "the science crowd" that I find a bit objectionable is this sense that they seem to think that if they can't explain it, or measure it, it doesn't exist.

Now had "the science crowd" locked into that view a thousand years ago, we'd be nowhere now.

And I fully acknowledge where science has taken us over thousands of years, well before even the idea of a christian god.

So I wonder whether society in 3030 might not laugh at society today for our relative lack of scientific knowledge and I wonder therefore whether "the science crowd" might be better served to laugh less and ridicule less those matters that they can't measure or don't understand. Which may include spirituality in some form.
Largely agree with your post, I'm definitely open to the bolded, I'd call it an as not yet understood natural connection to the natural world however I can not come at a Omnipresent, Omniscient, Participatory religious creator in any way.
 

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FireKraquora

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Life on earth can (and has) been explained by science and the evidence for that science is overwhelming.
Really? If you have a link to prove that there is scientific consensus on the origins of life on Earth, I'd love to see it over in the evolution thread, where I just made a post on the topic.
 

BruceFromBalnarring

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Largely agree with your post, I'm definitely open to the bolded, I'd call it an as not yet understood natural connection to the natural world however I can not come at a Omnipresent, Omniscient, Participatory religious creator in any way.
That's fine. But there's a big step between your position and ridiculing others who hold a different one. If the religious are comforted by that "spirituality" being expressed in the form of a christian, Islamic, Hindu god who is anyone else to mock that. If they wan't to spend their Sunday mornings doing what they do, good luck to them. And if there's enough of them such that they influence the political process, well good luck to them for that too. We live in a democracy which has to cater to all types, including the religious.
 

jason pm

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That's fine. But there's a big step between your position and ridiculing others who hold a different one. If the religious are comforted by that "spirituality" being expressed in the form of a christian, Islamic, Hindu god who is anyone else to mock that. If they wan't to spend their Sunday mornings doing what they do, good luck to them. And if there's enough of them such that they influence the political process, well good luck to them for that too. We live in a democracy which has to cater to all types, including the religious.
I admit I may at times overstep the mark and ridicule but I try to keep my discussion respectful, some religious creator believers overstep the mark as well.

Threads likes this are for robust discussion and an examining of claims, it's only natural that it will at times get heated.
 

BruceFromBalnarring

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I admit I may at times overstep the mark and ridicule but I try to keep my discussion respectful, some religious creator believers overstep the mark as well.

Threads likes this are for robust discussion and an examining of claims, it's only natural that it will at times get heated.
Certainly the religious types overstep the mark. In any fight of this nature both sides will. But the amount of references I've seen to "sky fairies" and "sky pixies" on this thread alone far outweighs any offensive behaviour from the religious. Now people who ARE religious, rightly or wrongly, take it quite seriously. It is as much a part of their sense of self as another's sexuality or even race or skin colour. If offence is to be measured subjectively on the part of the offended, as society has dictated it must nowadays, then use of expressions like that are at best unhelpful and at worst outright bigoted.
 

Roylion

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Really? If you have a link to prove that there is scientific consensus on the origins of life on Earth,
Where did I say the "origins of life"?

What I did say was:

"Life on earth...." [i.e evolution] "...... can (and has) been explained by science and the evidence for that science is overwhelming."

I'd love to see it over in the evolution thread, where I just made a post on the topic.
My previous comments on abiogenesis can be easily found through the search function.
 

Cooldude

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In any fight of this nature both sides will. But the amount of references I've seen to "sky fairies" and "sky pixies" on this thread alone far outweighs any offensive behaviour from the religious. Now people who ARE religious, rightly or wrongly, take it quite seriously. It is as much a part of their sense of self as another's sexuality or even race or skin colour.
No it is not

You are comparing a voluntary subjective belief of a deity without concrete evidence, to born-characteristics of people such as sexuality and race

Have a word with yourself
 

skilts

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That's fine. But there's a big step between your position and ridiculing others who hold a different one. If the religious are comforted by that "spirituality" being expressed in the form of a christian, Islamic, Hindu god who is anyone else to mock that. If they wan't to spend their Sunday mornings doing what they do, good luck to them. And if there's enough of them such that they influence the political process, well good luck to them for that too. We live in a democracy which has to cater to all types, including the religious.
What, exactly, is 'spirituality'? If it be a thing-in-itself, surely it's a thing accessible to all? is this so, or is it an internal creation meant for the 'privileged' few? It seems to be a word bandied about with gay abandon, without a definition or understanding of what it actually means.
 

jason pm

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Really? Last I looked things like gender, race and sexuality were fluid. Has that changed?
To the vast majority gender, race and sexuality are not fluid ie. it is not a choice, albeit there are exceptions, speaking generally-

1- Most people are born male or female and identify as such their whole life.
2- Most people are born a particular race and identify as such their whole life.
3- Most people are attracted to the same or opposite sex and that does not change their whole life.

I reiterate that there is a minority that are exceptions and that is fine.

On the other hand IMO religious belief is a choice and/or ingrained in you by your cultural upbringing, eg. education environment, family, peers.
 

BruceFromBalnarring

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What, exactly, is 'spirituality'? If it be a thing-in-itself, surely it's a thing accessible to all? is this so, or is it an internal creation meant for the 'privileged' few? It seems to be a word bandied about with gay abandon, without a definition or understanding of what it actually means.
You need to scroll up for context.
 

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BruceFromBalnarring

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To the vast majority gender, race and sexuality are not fluid ie. it is not a choice, albeit there are exceptions, speaking generally-

1- Most people are born male or female and identify as such their whole life.
2- Most people are born a particular race and identify as such their whole life.
3- Most people are attracted to the same or opposite sex and that does not change their whole life.

I reiterate that there is a minority that are exceptions and that is fine.

On the other hand IMO religious belief is a choice and/or ingrained in you by your cultural upbringing, eg. education environment, family, peers.
Ok, so the line for vilification should be drawn just above culture but just below race and sexuality.

We have, here and now, in 2019, solved the great question of morality as to who it is ok to bully, and what are the justifications for bullying.
 

jason pm

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Ok, so the line for vilification should be drawn just above culture but just below race and sexuality.

We have, here and now, in 2019, solved the great question of morality as to who it is ok to bully, and what are the justifications for bullying.
I think you are reading too much into it, this is a thread specifically set up to discuss religious belief and the merits of it and the veracity of the beliefs. Participating in said discussion is voluntary and easily avoided.

However it is a completely different matter if you are getting in someones face in the flesh and blood world or harassing them on social media, that sort of behavior is abhorrent IMO.

One of my best mates and his wife are devoutly religious and weekly church attendees, I totally respect their beliefs and we have never had a harsh word about their or my views between us in the 35 + years that I have known them. There is a time and place and IMO online and in dedicated threads is the place for it.
 

Cooldude

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Really? Last I looked things like gender, race and sexuality were fluid. Has that changed?
Dunno, has it changed like the church's stance on divorce and left handed people? People still getting stoned to death for using the devil's hand to write yet?

Picking extreme fields from the radical side of the left won't work well for you, as we can pick the extreme stuff your religion always seem to come up with and that would be infinitely more terrifying than just someone identifying himself as a particular gender
 

BruceFromBalnarring

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I think you are reading too much into it, this is a thread specifically set up to discuss religious belief and the merits of it and the veracity of the beliefs. Participating in said discussion is voluntary and easily avoided.

However it is a completely different matter if you are getting in someones face in the flesh and blood world or harassing them on social media, that sort of behavior is abhorrent IMO.

One of my best mates and his wife are devoutly religious and weekly church attendees, I totally respect their beliefs and we have never had a harsh word about their or my views between us in the 35 + years that I have known them. There is a time and place and IMO online and in dedicated threads is the place for it.
Hang about. That’s a cop out. This thread is about behaviour, not belief. And bigotry is bigotry. You don’t get to ridicule a person’s sexuality or race in any place. There are no threads set up to do so and nor should there be. Likewise with culture in my opinion.
 

Adroyo

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What, exactly, is 'spirituality'? If it be a thing-in-itself, surely it's a thing accessible to all? is this so, or is it an internal creation meant for the 'privileged' few? It seems to be a word bandied about with gay abandon, without a definition or understanding of what it actually means.
I can only speak for myself, but I consider my faith more of a philosophy I follow rather than a steadfast spiritual journey. Which in itself questions if I 'have faith' without believing in a higher power. There are certain Therāvadan precepts I hold near and dear, like I 'like to' believe in the cycle of rebirth when we die. But just because I like to believe I'm also well aware it's also probably not true. I'm certainly not steadfast in any belief without concrete evidence but I find the eightfold path a terrific 'guide' in how we should live life.

But like I said, that's just my living standard of spirituality.

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BruceFromBalnarring

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Dunno, has it changed like the church's stance on divorce and left handed people? People still getting stoned to death for using the devil's hand to write yet?

Picking extreme fields from the radical side of the left won't work well for you, as we can pick the extreme stuff your religion always seem to come up with and that would be infinitely more terrifying than just someone identifying himself as a particular gender
1. Not my religion.

2. My example in this was repeated references to sky fairies. That’s not an extreme example.

3. Thanks for the condescending advice about what won’t work well for me. My response to that is two unprintable words.
 

jason pm

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Hang about. That’s a cop out. This thread is about behaviour, not belief. And bigotry is bigotry. You don’t get to ridicule a person’s sexuality or race in any place. There are no threads set up to do so and nor should there be. Likewise with culture in my opinion.
I have never ridiculed anyone for their sexuality or race.

I do not see the correlation between sexuality and race when compared to a belief system ie. the faith in a creator. IMO it is laughable to compare them.

Questioning religious belief is IMO similar to questioning flat Earthers, anti vaxers or evolution deniers as long as it is done with decorum with some good natured banter and subtle sarcasm thrown in which is usually my go to.
 

jason pm

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I can only speak for myself, but I consider my faith more of a philosophy I follow rather than a steadfast spiritual journey. Which in itself questions if I 'have faith' without believing in a higher power. There are certain Therāvadan precepts I hold near and dear, like I 'like to' believe in the cycle of rebirth when we die. But just because I like to believe I'm also well aware it's also probably not true. I'm certainly not steadfast in any belief without concrete evidence but I find the eightfold path a terrific 'guide' in how we should live life.

But like I said, that's just my living standard of spirituality.

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I went on a 10 day Vipassana early this year and loved it, 100 hours of meditation over the 10 days. I really like the Buddhist philosophy on life.

I try to live my life by- Treating people the way you would like to be treated and walk in another's shoes before judging.
 

Snake_Baker

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I'm not trying to win you over
just showing up your double standards and total intolerance and close mindedness lol

I don't even know you...

you could be a child without the faculty of abstract and critical thinking

you can't bully me buddy!

not with as many; like-minded friends that you can muster up!

science without real proof just isn't real science which is why there's religious scientists

if you can prove stuff they would obviously abandon religion!

;)

You're not the full quid mate.
 

Cooldude

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1. Not my religion.

2. My example in this was repeated references to sky fairies. That’s not an extreme example.

3. Thanks for the condescending advice about what won’t work well for me. My response to that is two unprintable words.
1. Suuure, you used to work there, keep pretending you are impartial

2. You used an extreme example to retort on why voluntary and subjective religious beliefs are fundamentally different from born-characteristics like race and gender

Btw your whataboutism wasn't even valid, whether it is fluid or not, it is indisputable that all people are born with a particular gender and race when they come out of the womb. None of those kids however ever come out of the womb telling people they believe in Jesus

You are essentially equating the belief of 1+1 = 4 and flat earthing with race and gender, if someone believes 1+1 = 4 then they deserve to be laughed at. If people still believe the earth is flat they deserve to be laughed at. If anyone believes that there is a god who made the whole world, who somehow came to earth, died, then resurrected, and rose to the sky again and will come back on a white horse on fire with a broadsword coming out of his mouth, they very damn well deserve to be laughed at

Sooner or later you free speech brigades are gonna get dumb primary schoolers to argue with their teachers if they got 0 in a maths test, "I have a right to hold the view that 10+3 = 94, and by marking me incorrect you are infringing on my free speech!"

3. Thanks, that's a compliment coming from you. You do understand irony, right? Of course you don't
 

Total Power

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science is about proof.. if it's not about rock solid proof.. it is then about faith...!

And after and 1,000 posts of people explaining you what science is about, you are back to the same ole chestnut. Do you even read, or even try to understand? even a little bit? i am still waiting for you to explain what laws of TD does evolution violate. Oh wait, you need to go read your voodoo website for that.
 

BruceFromBalnarring

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1. Suuure, you used to work there, keep pretending you are impartial

2. You used an extreme example to retort on why voluntary and subjective religious beliefs are fundamentally different from born-characteristics like race and gender

Btw your whataboutism wasn't even valid, whether it is fluid or not, it is indisputable that all people are born with a particular gender and race when they come out of the womb. None of those kids however ever come out of the womb telling people they believe in Jesus

You are essentially equating the belief of 1+1 = 4 and flat earthing with race and gender, if someone believes 1+1 = 4 then they deserve to be laughed at. If people still believe the earth is flat they deserve to be laughed at. If anyone believes that there is a god who made the whole world, who somehow came to earth, died, then resurrected, and rose to the sky again and will come back on a white horse on fire with a broadsword coming out of his mouth, they very damn well deserve to be laughed at

Sooner or later you free speech brigades are gonna get dumb primary schoolers to argue with their teachers if they got 0 in a maths test, "I have a right to hold the view that 10+3 = 94, and by marking me incorrect you are infringing on my free speech!"

3. Thanks, that's a compliment coming from you. You do understand irony, right? Of course you don't
No worries mate, but it reflects on you far more than those you sneer at. Because if you insist on the right to laugh at, ridicule, and sneer at those who have beliefs and culture they hold dear, there’s no escaping the conclusion that you’re an ignorant, intolerant, bigoted s**t. You’re the problem, mate, not the faithful.
 
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