Relocation within Melbourne?

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Rob

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Hang on, they spent $15 million on a training facility that they're now going to abandon, spend more money on another one deep in the suburbs and keep playing their home games in the city?

Because....they might pick up extra fans that live close to their new training facility?

Is this just a load of bullshit, or do their owners genuinely think it will make a difference? Honestly, it's like there's an IQ test to become an A-League owner. It can't be above 70.
 

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Hang on, they spent $15 million on a training facility that they're now going to abandon, spend more money on another one deep in the suburbs and keep playing their home games in the city?

Because....they might pick up extra fans that live close to their new training facility?

Is this just a load of bullshit, or do their owners genuinely think it will make a difference? Honestly, it's like there's an IQ test to become an A-League owner. It can't be above 70.

City and WU are jokes but MC are owned by literal trillionaires so they could probably burn through as much money as they wanted to.
 

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Rob

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City and WU are jokes but MC are owned by literal trillionaires so they could probably burn through as much money as they wanted to.

Then why buy a team in a salary capped league? They could just buy a team in literally hundreds of other leagues that have few restrictions on spending on players and just buy 20 titles in a row.

Like I said, they're idiots.
 

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Then why buy a team in a salary capped league? They could just buy a team in literally hundreds of other leagues that have few restrictions on spending on players and just buy 20 titles in a row.

They got Aaron Mooy from City for nothing and sold him a year later for 10 million pounds. Daniel Arzani is another potential gun who Man City got from Melbourne City for virtually * all and could sell later down the line for a similar fee. They're trying to expand their brand internationally and to them, Melbourne City in a hot market for soccer with no pro/rel and the salary cap would be a decent investment for a lot of clubs wanting to expand into Asia and the Americas. A static league with restrictions on how much to spend on players is actually something a lot of investors like about leagues such as the A-League and MLS.
 

Rob

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They got Aaron Mooy from City for nothing and sold him a year later for 10 million pounds.

Which is what, 2 or 3 years of ongoing losses? Mooy was a once in a decade type deal, something that's unlikely to happen again to Melbourne City in this generation. Financially overall they would have lost a crapload, and the City group overall really haven't generated any sort of goodwill because they play in front of empty stands.

Daniel Arzani is another potential gun who Man City got from Melbourne City for virtually fu** all and could sell later down the line for a similar fee. They're trying to expand their brand internationally and to them, Melbourne City in a hot market for soccer with no pro/rel and the salary cap would be a decent investment for a lot of clubs wanting to expand into Asia and the Americas. A static league with restrictions on how much to spend on players is actually something a lot of investors like about leagues such as the A-League and MLS.

I don't doubt the lack of relegation would have been appealing, although you're stretching it to say Melbourne is a 'hot market' for soccer. The only appealing thing about a salary cap is that you could run a financially prudent club (which is more theoretical than practical given how big the losses are for most teams) - but if, as you suggest, money is no object then the salary cap is going to make it bloody difficult to develop the winning brand that you're trying to. Surely the aim is to run clubs all around the world that win and are popular, so you can say to people "look at how great we are". You wouldn't spend the huge dollars required otherwise - "check out how mediocre we are" wouldn't appeal to the sort of people they target.
 

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I don't doubt the lack of relegation would have been appealing, although you're stretching it to say Melbourne is a 'hot market' for soccer.

Not really. Soccer is big here and would be bigger if it wasn't for the dills who ran the FFA and the A-League. It's not near footy levels of popularity (nothing is) but soccer is certainly up there and I'd say is in the top three.

The only appealing thing about a salary cap is that you could run a financially prudent club (which is more theoretical than practical given how big the losses are for most teams) - but if, as you suggest, money is no object then the salary cap is going to make it bloody difficult to develop the winning brand that you're trying to.

The only club that Man City own outside of Melbourne City that could be considered a "winning club" are NYCFC who they own along with the NY Yankees (and they haven't won anything yet). The other clubs they own subsist of:

Girona a Catalan club who are also half owned by Pep Guardiola's brother and currently in the second division of Spanish soccer after getting relegated from La Liga.

Atletico Torque, one of the dodgiest clubs in South America (which is actually saying something) and are only owned by Man City to funnel through young SA players.

Troyes, a 2nd division French club who definitely aren't competing for anything any time soon.

They also own clubs in China, India and Belgium and have a partial stake in a club in Japan.


No club other in the CFG than Man City are continually successful and I don't think they care. They either own a club to build their brand or to circumvent UEFA/FIFA rulings about youth players and getting players into England by having them play in European leagues long enough to get work permits. They want to be soccer's version of Disney and they're on their way to getting to that stage.
 

BobbyMorri

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Which is what, 2 or 3 years of ongoing losses? Mooy was a once in a decade type deal, something that's unlikely to happen again to Melbourne City in this generation. Financially overall they would have lost a crapload, and the City group overall really haven't generated any sort of goodwill because they play in front of empty stands.



I don't doubt the lack of relegation would have been appealing, although you're stretching it to say Melbourne is a 'hot market' for soccer. The only appealing thing about a salary cap is that you could run a financially prudent club (which is more theoretical than practical given how big the losses are for most teams) - but if, as you suggest, money is no object then the salary cap is going to make it bloody difficult to develop the winning brand that you're trying to. Surely the aim is to run clubs all around the world that win and are popular, so you can say to people "look at how great we are". You wouldn't spend the huge dollars required otherwise - "check out how mediocre we are" wouldn't appeal to the sort of people they target.
I think applying normal business practices doesn't work for Melb City. You don't own a football club to make money.

And the salary cap is not the same as the AFL. There is a lot of * and who and what counts. If they wanted to really win the league with the rules as they are, they would. but having a base in a large country is enough. this gives influence, knowledge and maybe footballers.
 

Bunk Moreland

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Then why buy a team in a salary capped league? They could just buy a team in literally hundreds of other leagues that have few restrictions on spending on players and just buy 20 titles in a row.

Like I said, they're idiots.

They have done that. City Football Group. They own Manchester City (England), Melbourne City (Aust), New York City (USA), Torque (Uruguay), Sichuan Jiuniu (China), Mumbai City (India), Lommel (Belgium), Troyes (France) and they have a share of Yokohama (Japan) and Girona (Italy)

They are setting up a global network, it’s not just about winning titles but getting talent direct from the farm and having bases for their owners to conduct other business internationally (which is a whole seperate conversation).

The thing is, when they buy a club they have a blank canvas because they literally have unlimited money. They couldn’t spend it all in 500 years. So in the Melbourne case, they’ve looked at it and decided they need an actual identity and something unique from Victory, which was the massive flaw in the original Melbourne Heart concept they acquired.

They’ve done the work and found the obvious answer - they should be based in the deep South-East of Melbourne because it’s unclaimed territory with its own population bigger than many capital cities. So that’s where they’re going.

There’s a long-term solution for a Melbourne AFL club out there. Somebody can be another Geelong in 30 years time, it’s just whether anybody wants to make the leap and the commitment.
 
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juss

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Not really. Soccer is big here and would be bigger if it wasn't for the dills who ran the FFA and the A-League. It's not near footy levels of popularity (nothing is) but soccer is certainly up there and I'd say is in the top three.
Soccer is huge in AU as a played sport. It's enormously popular to play.
The elite level Australian product though (A-league) is rubbish in comparison, like it doesn't remotely compare to so many other leagues around the world. It never will be obviously because of money and geography.

It would be bigger with a more successful international side as that is separate from the domestic league, but the participation at junior/grassroots/school even senior level is enormous in Aus.

The domestic product in AU is never going to stack up though.
 

Mat Mann

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Waverly was just a step too far, imagine for a second if Waverly Park was located instead at Central Reserve, a 7-10m walk from the station, next to a metro hub that is a retail and business center, now boasts a shopping center and hotel as well as a variety of restaurants.

When Waverly was demolished 1/2 of Melbourne's population was east of Springvale road, something that I don't think has changed massively.

now the problem still with that is that Melbourne's rail network is solely CBD focused, in/out, getting across town requires a trip into the CBD then back out unless you like busses (and who does)

If a suburban ground was to be built that is the major challenge, the appalling transport network. An outer metro hub offers the best option, but cost would be astronomical

Screenshot 2021-01-04 165135.png
 
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Johnny Bananas

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Waverly was just a step too far, imagine for a second if Waverly Park was located instead at Central Reserve, a 7-10m walk from the station, next to a metro hub that is a retail and business center, now boasts a shopping center and hotel as well as a variety of restaurants.
That's a bit optimistic.
Screenshot_20210104-175912_Maps.jpg




When Waverly was demolished 1/2 of Melbourne's population was east of Springvale road, something that I don't think has changed massively.
What's your source for this? According to demographics experts, the centre of population was in Glen Iris at that time.


now the problem still with that is that Melbourne's rail network is solely CBD focused, in/out, getting across town requires a trip into the CBD then back out unless you like busses (and who does)
True, but if the SRL gets built it changes everything.
 

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megadeth86

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When the A-League decided to add a 3rd Melbourne team; placing one out in the suburbs it decided to choose the Western suburbs to base the team (and build a future stadium) rather than the South-East Melbourne bid.

The Croatian boys in the west will stick with the Knights, thanks very much.
 

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Hello, wakey wakey, *******t Wayne Jackson closed down Waverley Park for ******* Docklands profits.

Dumbest move for the sport n my time of following league decisions.

The consortium in its dealings with AFL and Kennedy’s state government insisted on a legal ban on other stadiums being built (there was a time limit)

Welcome to ‘free enterprise’
 

Bunk Moreland

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This is far more relevant again in a post COVID world. The CBD as the centre of everything in Melbourne as taken a huge hit. Working from home is a viable option for many (permanently) which is giving people far more options in terms of where they live. We’re headed toward 8m people in 2050 and sprawl will continue. There’s a huge generational opportunity for a club that wants to take the plunge.
 

madmug

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This is far more relevant again in a post COVID world. The CBD as the centre of everything in Melbourne as taken a huge hit. Working from home is a viable option for many (permanently) which is giving people far more options in terms of where they live. We’re headed toward 8m people in 2050 and sprawl will continue. There’s a huge generational opportunity for a club that wants to take the plunge.

I think the term 'relocation' needs a bit of a definition here.

I'm not sure that such moves would be a 'relocation' in the sense we've come to see it. South Melbourne to Sydney being the most obvious relocation we think of.

Moving suburbs in the same city is a bit different. Hawthorn moving from Glenferrie to Waverly wasn't called a relocation, nor Stkilda's various moves. Nor Collingwood from Victoria Park,

Anyway.
 

Kwality

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I think the term 'relocation' needs a bit of a definition here.

I'm not sure that such moves would be a 'relocation' in the sense we've come to see it. South Melbourne to Sydney being the most obvious relocation we think of.

Moving suburbs in the same city is a bit different. Hawthorn moving from Glenferrie to Waverly wasn't called a relocation, nor Stkilda's various moves. Nor Collingwood from Victoria Park,

Anyway.
'relocation' :thumbsu:

Most of the State based comps reflect the geography of the 1920s, & with most capitals close to the ocean, the physical geographic location of the clubs is 100 years past its use by date.

Geographic relevance is State these days, not suburban & one day the old version of home & away will be updated to reflect the reality of the national comp.
 
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Roylion

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I think the term 'relocation' needs a bit of a definition here.

I'm not sure that such moves would be a 'relocation' in the sense we've come to see it. South Melbourne to Sydney being the most obvious relocation we think of.

Moving suburbs in the same city is a bit different. Hawthorn moving from Glenferrie to Waverly wasn't called a relocation, nor Stkilda's various moves. Nor Collingwood from Victoria Park,

Anyway.

Fitzroy to the Western Oval in 1994 was possibly the closest to a 'relocation' within Melbourne, in that an inner city club with a recruiting zone and supporter base in outer eastern Melbourne (Doncaster and surrounds) relocated to the western suburbs of Melbourne. Can't say it really worked.
 

Kwality

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Fitzroy to the Western Oval in 1994 was possibly the closest to a 'relocation' within Melbourne, in that an inner city club with a recruiting zone and supporter base in outer eastern Melbourne (Doncaster and surrounds) relocated to the western suburbs of Melbourne. Can't say it really worked.

Reckon you can say it didnt work ...
 

Roylion

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Reckon you can say it didnt work ...

Desperate times called for desperate measures.

From their six year lease of Princes Park from 1987-1992, Fitzroy gained a small amount of income from perimeter fence advertising, nothing at all from other ground advertising, none from catering and a small amount from reserve seating. No wonder Fitzroy made losses every year – they were gaining very little income from their 'home ground' - and hadn’t done so since they were forced to leave the Junction Oval in 1984.

Over the head of Fitzroy, the AFL had guaranteed Carlton 22 matches at Princes Park from 1993-2000 irrespective of whether Fitzroy played there or not. Therefore at the end of 1992, when their lease ran out, Fitzroy had no bargaining power to negotiate a better ground deal with Carlton. When at the end of 1992 Carlton presented Fitzroy with a poorer deal than their 1987-1992 lease, Fitzroy had to either accept a deal in which they would make absolutely no ground revenue or consider a move either back to Victoria Park where they were unwelcome or consider a new deal offered by Footscray at the Western Oval.

The negotiations dragged on so long with Ian Collins and John Elliott (largely because of the AFL guarantee to Carlton - which meant Carlton didn't have to negotiate at all) that in 1993, Fitzroy played at Princes Park without a lease and at the end of the season, received a bill for $6,000 from Carlton as their 1993 revenue from their 'home ground'.

Having said that Fitzroy still made a small profit in 1993 courtesy of their new social club.

By moving to the Western Oval, Fitzroy made an extra $400,000 per year. Fitzroy received all revenue from nearly all advertising space at the Western Oval as well as all reserve set revenue, all car-parking revenue, as well as having free access to all corporate facilities and all outer ground catering rights.

A much better deal financially. Had Fitzroy got that deal at Princes Park, which was closer to their supporter base and was far easier to get to via public transport, they very probably wouldn't have sought a merger in 1996.
 
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Kwality

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Desperate times called for desperate measures.

From their six year lease of Princes Park from 1987-1992, Fitzroy gained a small amount of income from perimeter fence advertising, nothing at all from other ground advertising, none from catering and a small amount from reserve seating. No wonder Fitzroy made losses every year – they were gaining very little income from their 'home ground' - and hadn’t done so since they were forced to leave the Junction Oval in 1984.

Over the head of Fitzroy, the AFL had guaranteed Carlton 22 matches at Princes Park from 1993-2000 irrespective of whether Fitzroy played there or not. Therefore at the end of 1992, when their lease ran out, Fitzroy had no bargaining power to negotiate a better ground deal with Carlton. When at the end of 1992 Carlton presented Fitzroy with a poorer deal than their 1987-1992 lease, Fitzroy had to either accept a deal in which they would make absolutely no ground revenue or consider a move either back to Victoria Park where they were unwelcome or consider a new deal offered by Footscray at the Western Oval.

The negotiations dragged on so long with Ian Collins and John Elliott (largely because of the AFL guarantee to Carlton - which meant Carlton didn't have to negotiate at all) that in 1993, Fitzroy played at Princes Park without a lease and at the end of the season, received a bill for $6,000 from Carlton as their 1993 revenue from their 'home ground'.

Having said that Fitzroy still made a small profit in 1993 courtesy of their new social club.

By moving to the Western Oval, Fitzroy made an extra $400,000 per year. Fitzroy received all revenue from nearly all advertising space at the Western Oval as well as all reserve set revenue, all car-parking revenue, as well as having free access to all corporate facilities and all outer ground catering rights.

A much better deal financially. Had Fitzroy got that deal at Princes Park, which was closer to their supporter base and was far easier to get to via public transport, they very probably wouldnt have sought a merger in 1996.

I accept the bloody mess that the ground management was in in the 80s, & it continued into the 90s with Waverley. Arguably it remains today.
 

Hawkk

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Fitzroy to the Western Oval in 1994 was possibly the closest to a 'relocation' within Melbourne, in that an inner city club with a recruiting zone and supporter base in outer eastern Melbourne (Doncaster and surrounds) relocated to the western suburbs of Melbourne. Can't say it really worked.

In addition, perhaps Hawthorn from Glenferrie Oval to Princes Park?

Moved from the suburb of Hawthorn (served by the Belgrave and Lilydale lines) and moved to Princes Park.

The last 5 seasons Hawthorn played at Glenferrie Oval they drew 18,200.

The entire time they played at Princes Park (a far superior ground, with a far greater capacity) they drew 16,200 (17 seasons)

That’s despite winning 7 flags, making 12 Grand Finals and outperforming Carlton, on their home patch.

In 1991 Hawthorn moved to Waverley Park and doubled their attendance (despite going into a decade on-field decline)

The Hawks (like the Lions) fell into the Princes Park trap, built a grandstand and were shafted with ground revenue.

In hindsight they probably should have relocated to the MCG in the early 1970s (probably not an attractive enough draw for the MCC), out to VFL Park or perhaps further along the Lilydale / Belgrave line.

Werent Fitzroy offered VFL Park after leaving Princes Park and again after the Junction?
 

Bunk Moreland

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I think the term 'relocation' needs a bit of a definition here.

I'm not sure that such moves would be a 'relocation' in the sense we've come to see it. South Melbourne to Sydney being the most obvious relocation we think of.

Moving suburbs in the same city is a bit different. Hawthorn moving from Glenferrie to Waverly wasn't called a relocation, nor Stkilda's various moves. Nor Collingwood from Victoria Park,

Anyway.

The important thing about such a move is it would have to be a proper relocation - moving the club HQ, training facilities and most importantly, home games. Properly basing the club somewhere near a huge swath of population and giving them more convenient football than the CBD.

The Suburban Rail Loop would be huge in terms of this and offer further opportunities. It’s the first time something of that magnitude has a good chance of going ahead and it will be part of the revolution of how people move around Melbourne - its not all about the CBD like it has been in the past.
 

madmug

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The important thing about such a move is it would have to be a proper relocation - moving the club HQ, training facilities and most importantly, home games. Properly basing the club somewhere near a huge swath of population and giving them more convenient football than the CBD.

The Suburban Rail Loop would be huge in terms of this and offer further opportunities. It’s the first time something of that magnitude has a good chance of going ahead and it will be part of the revolution of how people move around Melbourne - its not all about the CBD like it has been in the past.

Do you see a new stadium being built in Melbourne? Somewhere in the Eastern suburbs. Dingley perhaps?
 

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