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Ned_Flanders

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Aug 22, 2009
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I disagree. A 3rd stadium for Dogs/Saints/North would be ideal, none of those clubs need a stadium larger than 30 to 35k. Unfair to GWS, Suns and Freo, but imagine if clubs could move low drawing games to a cheaper venue, allowing the MCG to host more VIC derbies that will fill the venue. Need to right size the capacity so that fans don't miss out, and simultaenously clubs don't go bankrupt (the breakeven crowd at Docklands is about 30,000 bums on seats, if you draw less you lose money, you have to pay MSL money per seat not filled).
And who pays for this?

Fewer games at Marvel makes that a less profitable venue for the AFL, meaning the costs will have to increase to the existing tenants.

And as for your new pipedream, who's funding it? The AFL is tapped out thanks to covid and it's redevelopment plans for marvel. And why would the govt spend on an unnecessary luxury at a time when the budget has been blown to sh*t?

No sh*t a small stadium would be ideal for those small clubs, but only as long as someone else pays for it, and someone else wears the ongoing costs
 

JohnZ

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Mar 10, 2016
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And who pays for this?

Fewer games at Marvel makes that a less profitable venue for the AFL, meaning the costs will have to increase to the existing tenants.

And as for your new pipedream, who's funding it? The AFL is tapped out thanks to covid and it's redevelopment plans for marvel. And why would the govt spend on an unnecessary luxury at a time when the budget has been blown to sh*t?

No sh*t a small stadium would be ideal for those small clubs, but only as long as someone else pays for it, and someone else wears the ongoing costs
Good point. We need more games. I propose an 18 team 34 round season or a 24 team (2 division) 22 round season.

As for paying for it. Make it the premier AFLW venue too. Get some government funding for "women's sports". The AFL can throw some cash in too and the company (MSL) which runs Marvel can be contracted to run the 3rd/Boutique stadium as well.

I wouldn't consider it a luxury to the clubs that consistently lose money because they play at a venue which requires 40,000 people to make a modest profit (30,000 to break even, which frankly isn't good enough).
 

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Ned_Flanders

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Good point. We need more games. I propose an 18 team 34 round season or a 24 team (2 division) 22 round season.

As for paying for it. Make it the premier AFLW venue too. Get some government funding for "women's sports". The AFL can throw some cash in too and the company (MSL) which runs Marvel can be contracted to run the 3rd/Boutique stadium as well.

I wouldn't consider it a luxury to the clubs that consistently lose money because they play at a venue which requires 40,000 people to make a modest profit (30,000 to break even, which frankly isn't good enough).
1) 34 round season wont happen because of:

a) limits on access to the MCG, SCG, GABBA, and AO due to the cricket
b) AFLPA would never agree to it without massive pay increases to the players, and the off season would have a longer non-training period (for injury recovery)

2) 24 clubs wont happen any time soon with half the league needing extra funding from the AFL to stay afloat

3) why are the govt paying for it, when they have Princes Park already doing the AFLW job adequately?

4) where is the AFL getting the $100m+ needed for this?
 

JohnZ

Premiership Player
Mar 10, 2016
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1) 34 round season wont happen because of:

a) limits on access to the MCG, SCG, GABBA, and AO due to the cricket
b) AFLPA would never agree to it without massive pay increases to the players, and the off season would have a longer non-training period (for injury recovery)

2) 24 clubs wont happen any time soon with half the league needing extra funding from the AFL to stay afloat

3) why are the govt paying for it, when they have Princes Park already doing the AFLW job adequately?

4) where is the AFL getting the $100m+ needed for this?
1a) MCG, SCG, Gabba and AO aren't widely used outside of international cricket these days. The stadiums are too big. Hence why we have the Junction, North Sydney etc. If the AFL wanted access for 38 weeks (34 weeks plus finals) they'd get it. Could run from First week of Feb thru to Last week of Oct (give or take a week). The Gabba might become a cricket only venue if the Olympics ends up with a new larger stadium built with AFL in mind (there's a thread somewhere here about it).

1b) The off season would be the off season, no need for pre-season training if the players are playing so many weeks of the year (expected to run, lift weights but not train drills etc). Instead of byes, players could be given compulsory weeks off, probably 4 or so per season. So for example the maximum number of H+A games played by Dusty would be 30. And of course there would be pay increases. From 22 games to 30 games is an increase of 35% (give or take). The TV rights would go up too which would help pay for it.

2) Agreed much less likely, hence why I listed it second. But if we start adding teams in Tassie and Canberra and NT, we'll get their awfully quickly. The comp has already grown from 12 teams to 18 in a relatively short space of time (30 years).

3) The government has committed more money for Princess Park. This could be the 3rd stadium, doesn't need to be brand new. Just needs to exist, and be cheap to run like Kardinia Park is. Capacity of 30 to 35k would be ideal.

4) Take a loan out against Marvel and invest into their future. That's what most companies do when they own assets.
 

Ned_Flanders

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Aug 22, 2009
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1a) MCG, SCG, Gabba and AO aren't widely used outside of international cricket these days. The stadiums are too big. Hence why we have the Junction, North Sydney etc. If the AFL wanted access for 38 weeks (34 weeks plus finals) they'd get it. Could run from First week of Feb thru to Last week of Oct (give or take a week). The Gabba might become a cricket only venue if the Olympics ends up with a new larger stadium built with AFL in mind (there's a thread somewhere here about it).

1b) The off season would be the off season, no need for pre-season training if the players are playing so many weeks of the year (expected to run, lift weights but not train drills etc). Instead of byes, players could be given compulsory weeks off, probably 4 or so per season. So for example the maximum number of H+A games played by Dusty would be 30. And of course there would be pay increases. From 22 games to 30 games is an increase of 35% (give or take). The TV rights would go up too which would help pay for it.

2) Agreed much less likely, hence why I listed it second. But if we start adding teams in Tassie and Canberra and NT, we'll get their awfully quickly. The comp has already grown from 12 teams to 18 in a relatively short space of time (30 years).

3) The government has committed more money for Princess Park. This could be the 3rd stadium, doesn't need to be brand new. Just needs to exist, and be cheap to run like Kardinia Park is. Capacity of 30 to 35k would be ideal.

4) Take a loan out against Marvel and invest into their future. That's what most companies do when they own assets.
1a) cricket isnt giving away its window to that degree

1b) clubs would never agree to mandatory time off for players in season

2) and how much more talent is there to access? you are talking about getting an extra 240+ tier 1 quality players, when the second tier leagues have already been gutted

3) not enough money to make it an AFL grade stadium. To do that you are looking at hundreds of millions, not tens.

4) so your idea is to borrow money on an asset that will face falling revenues, to build a stadium that is to be run on the cheap (and therefore not a revenue source)? companies invest in growth assets, the idea being that the investment will pay back the debt and more. your idea is getting the AFL on a debt cycle it will struggle to get off of without selling one of the two stadia
 

JohnZ

Premiership Player
Mar 10, 2016
4,884
7,178
AFL Club
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1a) cricket isnt giving away its window to that degree

1b) clubs would never agree to mandatory time off for players in season

2) and how much more talent is there to access? you are talking about getting an extra 240+ tier 1 quality players, when the second tier leagues have already been gutted

3) not enough money to make it an AFL grade stadium. To do that you are looking at hundreds of millions, not tens.

4) so your idea is to borrow money on an asset that will face falling revenues, to build a stadium that is to be run on the cheap (and therefore not a revenue source)? companies invest in growth assets, the idea being that the investment will pay back the debt and more. your idea is getting the AFL on a debt cycle it will struggle to get off of without selling one of the two stadia
1a) It already kinda has. The Junction wouldn't have been upgraded if Cricket Australia hadn't seen the writing on the wall.

1b) It's all give and take. The clubs would take it in a heartbeat if it meant that the soft cap got an increase. The AFL has a lot of flexibility to make the clubs "happy"

2) List sizes of probably ~60 players needed for a national League and Reserves comp. At least half of them would be under 23. Let the VFL/SANFL/WAFL go back to being a proper independent state league for people that want to play footy but keep their 9 to 5 job.

3) Not yet, because it hasn't been proposed. The money would be there if called upon. Post covid infrastructure projects are going to be politically popular for a while yet

4) Falling revenue? Marvel would go from 43 games a season to 51 (3 teams * 17 games). Those teams (Essendon, Carlton and Hawthorn primarily) would draw more than Saints/Roos/Dogs so revenue per game and revenue total would both go up. And I didn't say Princess Park would be run on the cheap, I said that it's operation would be more streamlined and run more similarly to Kardinia Park than Marvel/MCG which are big stadiums that have a lot of built in costs.
 

Ned_Flanders

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Aug 22, 2009
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1a) It already kinda has. The Junction wouldn't have been upgraded if Cricket Australia hadn't seen the writing on the wall.

1b) It's all give and take. The clubs would take it in a heartbeat if it meant that the soft cap got an increase. The AFL has a lot of flexibility to make the clubs "happy"

2) List sizes of probably ~60 players needed for a national League and Reserves comp. At least half of them would be under 23. Let the VFL/SANFL/WAFL go back to being a proper independent state league for people that want to play footy but keep their 9 to 5 job.

3) Not yet, because it hasn't been proposed. The money would be there if called upon. Post covid infrastructure projects are going to be politically popular for a while yet

4) Falling revenue? Marvel would go from 43 games a season to 51 (3 teams * 17 games). Those teams (Essendon, Carlton and Hawthorn primarily) would draw more than Saints/Roos/Dogs so revenue per game and revenue total would both go up. And I didn't say Princess Park would be run on the cheap, I said that it's operation would be more streamlined and run more similarly to Kardinia Park than Marvel/MCG which are big stadiums that have a lot of built in costs.
okay, this has massive probs now because of (4)

- hawthorn is a MCG tenant club, and has zero interest in relocating to Marvel
- Carlton is only 50:50, and is also wanting to move to the MCG
- Essendon is the anchor tenant for Marvel, but it wants to move most of its major games to the MCG

If you take the Saints, Kangas, and Dogs out of Marvel, you have 2 clubs providing the bulk of the games (probably 12-14 each), and 5 MCG tenants chucking in 1-3 each. no matter what way you cut it, thats a reduction
 

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