Return to Princes Park: MARCH 2017

[Ned_Flanders]

I disagree. A 3rd stadium for Dogs/Saints/North would be ideal, none of those clubs need a stadium larger than 30 to 35k. Unfair to GWS, Suns and Freo, but imagine if clubs could move low drawing games to a cheaper venue, allowing the MCG to host more VIC derbies that will fill the venue. Need to right size the capacity so that fans don't miss out, and simultaenously clubs don't go bankrupt (the breakeven crowd at Docklands is about 30,000 bums on seats, if you draw less you lose money, you have to pay MSL money per seat not filled).

And who pays for this?

Fewer games at Marvel makes that a less profitable venue for the AFL, meaning the costs will have to increase to the existing tenants.

And as for your new pipedream, who's funding it? The AFL is tapped out thanks to covid and it's redevelopment plans for marvel. And why would the govt spend on an unnecessary luxury at a time when the budget has been blown to s**t?

No s**t a small stadium would be ideal for those small clubs, but only as long as someone else pays for it, and someone else wears the ongoing costs

 

[FootyJunkie]

Carlton also got a good deal, because one of their board members was also on the board for the new stadium. Might've been Elliot, but my memory is hazy on the details here.

Ian Collins?

 

[JohnZ]

And who pays for this?

Fewer games at Marvel makes that a less profitable venue for the AFL, meaning the costs will have to increase to the existing tenants.

And as for your new pipedream, who's funding it? The AFL is tapped out thanks to covid and it's redevelopment plans for marvel. And why would the govt spend on an unnecessary luxury at a time when the budget has been blown to sh*t?

No sh*t a small stadium would be ideal for those small clubs, but only as long as someone else pays for it, and someone else wears the ongoing costs

Good point. We need more games. I propose an 18 team 34 round season or a 24 team (2 division) 22 round season.

As for paying for it. Make it the premier AFLW venue too. Get some government funding for "women's sports". The AFL can throw some cash in too and the company (MSL) which runs Marvel can be contracted to run the 3rd/Boutique stadium as well.

I wouldn't consider it a luxury to the clubs that consistently lose money because they play at a venue which requires 40,000 people to make a modest profit (30,000 to break even, which frankly isn't good enough).

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Good point. We need more games. I propose an 18 team 34 round season or a 24 team (2 division) 22 round season.

As for paying for it. Make it the premier AFLW venue too. Get some government funding for "women's sports". The AFL can throw some cash in too and the company (MSL) which runs Marvel can be contracted to run the 3rd/Boutique stadium as well.

I wouldn't consider it a luxury to the clubs that consistently lose money because they play at a venue which requires 40,000 people to make a modest profit (30,000 to break even, which frankly isn't good enough).

1) 34 round season wont happen because of:

a) limits on access to the MCG, SCG, GABBA, and AO due to the cricket
b) AFLPA would never agree to it without massive pay increases to the players, and the off season would have a longer non-training period (for injury recovery)

2) 24 clubs wont happen any time soon with half the league needing extra funding from the AFL to stay afloat

3) why are the govt paying for it, when they have Princes Park already doing the AFLW job adequately?

4) where is the AFL getting the $100m+ needed for this?

 

[JohnZ]

1) 34 round season wont happen because of:

a) limits on access to the MCG, SCG, GABBA, and AO due to the cricket
b) AFLPA would never agree to it without massive pay increases to the players, and the off season would have a longer non-training period (for injury recovery)

2) 24 clubs wont happen any time soon with half the league needing extra funding from the AFL to stay afloat

3) why are the govt paying for it, when they have Princes Park already doing the AFLW job adequately?

4) where is the AFL getting the $100m+ needed for this?

1a) MCG, SCG, Gabba and AO aren't widely used outside of international cricket these days. The stadiums are too big. Hence why we have the Junction, North Sydney etc. If the AFL wanted access for 38 weeks (34 weeks plus finals) they'd get it. Could run from First week of Feb thru to Last week of Oct (give or take a week). The Gabba might become a cricket only venue if the Olympics ends up with a new larger stadium built with AFL in mind (there's a thread somewhere here about it).

1b) The off season would be the off season, no need for pre-season training if the players are playing so many weeks of the year (expected to run, lift weights but not train drills etc). Instead of byes, players could be given compulsory weeks off, probably 4 or so per season. So for example the maximum number of H+A games played by Dusty would be 30. And of course there would be pay increases. From 22 games to 30 games is an increase of 35% (give or take). The TV rights would go up too which would help pay for it.

2) Agreed much less likely, hence why I listed it second. But if we start adding teams in Tassie and Canberra and NT, we'll get their awfully quickly. The comp has already grown from 12 teams to 18 in a relatively short space of time (30 years).

3) The government has committed more money for Princess Park. This could be the 3rd stadium, doesn't need to be brand new. Just needs to exist, and be cheap to run like Kardinia Park is. Capacity of 30 to 35k would be ideal.

4) Take a loan out against Marvel and invest into their future. That's what most companies do when they own assets.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

1a) MCG, SCG, Gabba and AO aren't widely used outside of international cricket these days. The stadiums are too big. Hence why we have the Junction, North Sydney etc. If the AFL wanted access for 38 weeks (34 weeks plus finals) they'd get it. Could run from First week of Feb thru to Last week of Oct (give or take a week). The Gabba might become a cricket only venue if the Olympics ends up with a new larger stadium built with AFL in mind (there's a thread somewhere here about it).

1b) The off season would be the off season, no need for pre-season training if the players are playing so many weeks of the year (expected to run, lift weights but not train drills etc). Instead of byes, players could be given compulsory weeks off, probably 4 or so per season. So for example the maximum number of H+A games played by Dusty would be 30. And of course there would be pay increases. From 22 games to 30 games is an increase of 35% (give or take). The TV rights would go up too which would help pay for it.

2) Agreed much less likely, hence why I listed it second. But if we start adding teams in Tassie and Canberra and NT, we'll get their awfully quickly. The comp has already grown from 12 teams to 18 in a relatively short space of time (30 years).

3) The government has committed more money for Princess Park. This could be the 3rd stadium, doesn't need to be brand new. Just needs to exist, and be cheap to run like Kardinia Park is. Capacity of 30 to 35k would be ideal.

4) Take a loan out against Marvel and invest into their future. That's what most companies do when they own assets.

1a) cricket isnt giving away its window to that degree

1b) clubs would never agree to mandatory time off for players in season

2) and how much more talent is there to access? you are talking about getting an extra 240+ tier 1 quality players, when the second tier leagues have already been gutted

3) not enough money to make it an AFL grade stadium. To do that you are looking at hundreds of millions, not tens.

4) so your idea is to borrow money on an asset that will face falling revenues, to build a stadium that is to be run on the cheap (and therefore not a revenue source)? companies invest in growth assets, the idea being that the investment will pay back the debt and more. your idea is getting the AFL on a debt cycle it will struggle to get off of without selling one of the two stadia

 

[JohnZ]

1a) cricket isnt giving away its window to that degree

1b) clubs would never agree to mandatory time off for players in season

2) and how much more talent is there to access? you are talking about getting an extra 240+ tier 1 quality players, when the second tier leagues have already been gutted

3) not enough money to make it an AFL grade stadium. To do that you are looking at hundreds of millions, not tens.

4) so your idea is to borrow money on an asset that will face falling revenues, to build a stadium that is to be run on the cheap (and therefore not a revenue source)? companies invest in growth assets, the idea being that the investment will pay back the debt and more. your idea is getting the AFL on a debt cycle it will struggle to get off of without selling one of the two stadia

1a) It already kinda has. The Junction wouldn't have been upgraded if Cricket Australia hadn't seen the writing on the wall.

1b) It's all give and take. The clubs would take it in a heartbeat if it meant that the soft cap got an increase. The AFL has a lot of flexibility to make the clubs "happy"

2) List sizes of probably ~60 players needed for a national League and Reserves comp. At least half of them would be under 23. Let the VFL/SANFL/WAFL go back to being a proper independent state league for people that want to play footy but keep their 9 to 5 job.

3) Not yet, because it hasn't been proposed. The money would be there if called upon. Post covid infrastructure projects are going to be politically popular for a while yet

4) Falling revenue? Marvel would go from 43 games a season to 51 (3 teams * 17 games). Those teams (Essendon, Carlton and Hawthorn primarily) would draw more than Saints/Roos/Dogs so revenue per game and revenue total would both go up. And I didn't say Princess Park would be run on the cheap, I said that it's operation would be more streamlined and run more similarly to Kardinia Park than Marvel/MCG which are big stadiums that have a lot of built in costs.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

1a) It already kinda has. The Junction wouldn't have been upgraded if Cricket Australia hadn't seen the writing on the wall.

1b) It's all give and take. The clubs would take it in a heartbeat if it meant that the soft cap got an increase. The AFL has a lot of flexibility to make the clubs "happy"

2) List sizes of probably ~60 players needed for a national League and Reserves comp. At least half of them would be under 23. Let the VFL/SANFL/WAFL go back to being a proper independent state league for people that want to play footy but keep their 9 to 5 job.

3) Not yet, because it hasn't been proposed. The money would be there if called upon. Post covid infrastructure projects are going to be politically popular for a while yet

4) Falling revenue? Marvel would go from 43 games a season to 51 (3 teams * 17 games). Those teams (Essendon, Carlton and Hawthorn primarily) would draw more than Saints/Roos/Dogs so revenue per game and revenue total would both go up. And I didn't say Princess Park would be run on the cheap, I said that it's operation would be more streamlined and run more similarly to Kardinia Park than Marvel/MCG which are big stadiums that have a lot of built in costs.

okay, this has massive probs now because of (4)

- hawthorn is a MCG tenant club, and has zero interest in relocating to Marvel
- Carlton is only 50:50, and is also wanting to move to the MCG
- Essendon is the anchor tenant for Marvel, but it wants to move most of its major games to the MCG

If you take the Saints, Kangas, and Dogs out of Marvel, you have 2 clubs providing the bulk of the games (probably 12-14 each), and 5 MCG tenants chucking in 1-3 each. no matter what way you cut it, thats a reduction

 

[Roogal]

The new footings for the new light towers for Ikon / Princess Park are now being manufactured in Ballarat by Plinius Steel Fabrication:

 

[JohnZ]

The new footings for the new light towers for Ikon / Princess Park are now being manufactured in Ballarat by Plinius Steel Fabrication:

View attachment 1089539

All that will be concrete once in the ground. Amazing.

 

[Roogal]

Not really related to any of the previous discussion here but here's an interesting image of the 1952 proposal for redevelopment of Princess Park as Melbourne's Olympic Stadium. The idea didn't last long and the decision was made on Australia Day 1953 that the MCG would be the main venue. It seems like a no-brainer to us now, but back then it caused a lot controversy and nearly saw the IOC take the games from Melbourne.

 

[The_Wookie]

Not really related to any of the previous discussion here but here's an interesting image of the 1952 proposal for redevelopment of Princess Park as Melbourne's Olympic Stadium. The idea didn't last long and the decision was made on Australia Day 1953 that the MCG would be the main venue. It seems like a no-brainer to us now, but back then it caused a lot controversy and nearly saw the IOC take the games from Melbourne.

View attachment 1108614

In 1952, The Argus reported that the VFL was concerned over the size of crowds that the MCG could hold, as it anticipated crowds of up to 120,000 which were not then possible at the MCG due to health department. It was then under consideration that not only could finals be moved to the Princes Park but so could the leagues administration offices.

As reported in the West Australian, This coincided with announcements of a world wide competition for stadium designs for an Olympic stadium expected to be built at the Carlton ground for the 1956 Olympic games. The stadium was anticipated to hold 125,000, with 50,000 seated and another 30,000 undercover. Astonishingly, the competition was only given 3 weeks to run. The Olympic stadium was later built at the Melbourne Cricket Ground.

In 1954, Carlton attempted to persuade the VFL to hold the finals again at Princes Park, pointing out that the ground could accommodate more paying customers. The VFL refused saying that the next 3 finals series were bound to the MCG by contract.

 

[Roogal]

In 1954, Carlton attempted to persuade the VFL to hold the finals again at Princes Park, pointing out that the ground could accommodate more paying customers. The VFL refused saying that the next 3 finals series were bound to the MCG by contract.

Astonishing, in consideration that until 1954 the record crowd to ever be accommodated at Princess Park was 66,000 and that was during the War when the MCG was occupied by the Air Force. But at least in the 1950s I think that the outer ring rail line which cut through Northern Carlton still existed.

Let's face it, the VFL and the MCC never had a happy relationship in the old days, but I suspect that the two have become more co-dependent over the years. In the old days the MCC board were mainly stuffy silver-tails who thought that the world revolved around them and yes they tried to dictate to the VFL and to the Melbourne Olympic Games Organising Committee in the 1950s. At least Premier John Cain (Snr) who wasn't one of those silver-tails had the gumption to talk plainly and to advise them that the Games were being held on the MCG whether they jolly well liked it or not. They were powerful and influential men who were not used to being spoken to like that, but Premier Cain got his way.

 

[The Tilt]

Astonishing, in consideration that until 1954 the record crowd to ever be accommodated at Princess Park was 66,000 and that was during the War when the MCG was occupied by the Air Force. But at least in the 1950s I think that the outer ring rail line which cut through Northern Carlton still existed.

The outer city circle was abandoned in 1893: it only lasted three years.

 

[The Tilt]

Has anyone seen the plans for the re-development at Princes Park? I drove past it earlier this week and saw the grandstand on the outer side has just been demolished: it'd be interesting to see what it's going to look like once it's redeveloped. I assume the point is to improve change rooms etc - but will there be a grandstand in place of the old one?

 

[Teen Wolf]

Has anyone seen the plans for the re-development at Princes Park? I drove past it earlier this week and saw the grandstand on the outer side has just been demolished: it'd be interesting to see what it's going to look like once it's redeveloped. I assume the point is to improve change rooms etc - but will there be a grandstand in place of the old one?

Didn't realise it hadn't been posted in this thread.

They won't be building a new grandstand:



Here is a good brief outline of what's being added:



More pictures and info available here:

Ikon Park Redevelopment | Carlton Football Club

Learn more about the planned redevelopment at Ikon Park.

www.carltonfc.com.au

 

[The Tilt]

Didn't realise it hadn't been posted in this thread.

They won't be building a new grandstand:

View attachment 1197246

Here is a good brief outline of what's being added:

View attachment 1197248

More pictures and info available here:

Ikon Park Redevelopment | Carlton Football Club

Learn more about the planned redevelopment at Ikon Park.

www.carltonfc.com.au

Thanks Wolf.

That's roughly what i'd expected. It looks like they'll be seating 360 degrees around the ground, which is good, even if there'll be no grandstand on that outer side. Much as the capacity will be more than enough for almost matches played there, it's a shame that this likely precludes any return of AFL matches to Princes Park. Always liked the ground.

 

[The Victorian]

 

[drunkill]

Thanks Wolf.

That's roughly what i'd expected. It looks like they'll be seating 360 degrees around the ground, which is good, even if there'll be no grandstand on that outer side. Much as the capacity will be more than enough for almost matches played there, it's a shame that this likely precludes any return of AFL matches to Princes Park. Always liked the ground.

No seating behind the royal parade end goals, that already exists and is a narrow walkway, so not somewhere spectators would stand or lean against the rail.

It is the major downside of the new development, it kills any hope of a crowd at one end of the ground for decades, unless seating is added on the roof of the existing admin building and new training shed sometime in the future.

They demolished the wrong stand, the pratt stand was serviceable, just needed some TLC with paint lighting and new benches.


Only a small terrace will be infront of the new media/coaches pavillion. It is a major reduction in overall capacity and we've lost the best vantage point (tier 2 pratt stand) the ground had.

 

[The Victorian]

No seating behind the royal parade end goals, that already exists and is a narrow walkway, so not somewhere spectators would stand or lean against the rail.

It is the major downside of the new development, it kills any hope of a crowd at one end of the ground for decades, unless seating is added on the roof of the existing admin building and new training shed sometime in the future.

They demolished the wrong stand, the pratt stand was serviceable, just needed some TLC with paint lighting and new benches.


Only a small terrace will be infront of the new media/coaches pavillion. It is a major reduction in overall capacity and we've lost the best vantage point (tier 2 pratt stand) the ground had.

Agreed. They should’ve demolished the old grandstand

 

[drunkill]

Agreed. They should’ve demolished the old grandstand

The gardiner stand? No that is heritage protected and is fine for the stadium, also needs a lot of work to restore it but once that is done it'll be great.

Should have demolished the Pratt stand (brown brick one) which takes up a quarter of the venue but only seats about 400 people. If they had of done that and put the new trianing shed behind the Gardiner stand (which is currently a council depot behind there) it would have left the perfectly serviceable Pratt stand with tier 2 seating and enough boundary side seats along the city egde of the ground.

 

[Burtyl78]

The gardiner stand? No that is heritage protected and is fine for the stadium, also needs a lot of work to restore it but once that is done it'll be great.

Should have demolished the Pratt stand (brown brick one) which takes up a quarter of the venue but only seats about 400 people. If they had of done that and put the new trianing shed behind the Gardiner stand (which is currently a council depot behind there) it would have left the perfectly serviceable Pratt stand with tier 2 seating and enough boundary side seats along the city egde of the ground.

Elliot stand you mean?

 

[drunkill]

Elliot stand you mean?

Yes the heroes stand, the stand formerly known as the * stand

The only reason that wasn't pulled down is that it houses offices for YMCA, AFL Umpires, AFL Victoria and a few other orgs who use it... a pity, given the two years of covid they've been closed so we could have redeveloped a grandstand of the same height and mass but with actual stadium seating facing the oval instead of just offices/boxes. A potential 5000-7000 seat stand with two levels which would have increased the capacity of the venue.

 

[The Victorian]

Went to Ikon Park yesterday for the AFLW. There is a lot of work to be done. The facilities are quite poor and outdated to be honest.

I cannot believe they are spending millions on upgrades but not upgrading the outdated spectator facilities.

Gardner Stand: It needs a restoration. Start with painting the roof and painting the seats. Give it a restoration like the old Junction Oval stands had.

Heroes Stand: Needs to be knocked down. It looks old, has an old scoreboard which is tiny, seats look old, it does not look like it holds many spectators. Build a new grandstand like the planned one for Punt Road:

The redevelopment does not answer the questions too. The new T&A building will be right up against the ground. It should have been placed back to allow some seating to be put on the fence. Why don't they actually give it the upgrade it deserves especially if they want to be hosting AFLW and VFL Grand Finals at the ground!

 

[Roogal]

It seems to be the way that they are going with all of the former VFL grounds. Arden Street lost its stand to be replaced by an ever growing Club office/training/community complex. North's spectators sit out on former viewing berms that are now grassed over and covered with gum trees. There's virtually no seating at RSEA Park despite some $45 million being recently spent there. The VU Whitten Oval is about to lose its EJ Whitten Stand to get something half the capacity but with a huge gymnasium and club offices behind it. Even Punt Road is getting only 3000 seats in its $65 million (No that's not a mis-print) new stand.

The way that they are going at Ikon Park, you'll eventually lose the Gardiner Stand and the Blues will dream up some way to extend their HQ even further around the boundary. You might have no spectator capacity at the ground, but at least the Blues heavy weights, committee and players will have a gold class view of the ground and games from their office windows.