Return to Zones on the agenda...

[marty36]

Agree totally with this. I think if you went to a full academy system then the draft would be ridiculous but even now it is very clunky in the way it attempts to accommodate academies and free agency compensations.

A points based auction system is the way to go. Under the current arrangements you would need to work out the order players are auctioned off so to speak....I suspect you would need some system of nomination (perhaps under current draft order for simplicity) because you couldn't have a situation where kids names are being read out and no one bidding anything

If all players are pre-nominated as they would be under an academy system than the auction would work perfectly. Free agency would be compensated according to a formula. Players would be traded for points. All bidding would be done in points.

I do wonder what the AFL are thinking heading down the "live trading" route and whether it is just a case being a little too liberally taking on NFL innovations regardless of their fit here. Players are never going to agree to live trading and you surely can't do it with 18 year old kids so it will only ever be for draft picks. It works in the US because the rookies have just emerged from a pseudo professional college environment and are mostly 21 / 22 and the EBA environment allows players to be moved without their permission

An auction system where everyone is already invested in the best players because they have been in their academies could actually make great television in a way that the draft has never done

The points system is something worth looking at but definetly open to interpretation on the worth of points

The whole system as it is at the moment and as it will be is somewhat of a handicapped system and like any handicapped system it needs constant change so that no groups or teams are given too much of an advantage or too much of a disadvantage, the landscape constantly changes as states like NSW get greater participation with their enormous population acadamies will need to go if the rest of the states dont get them

Isnt that the idea to grow the sport in those states and why they are spending millions doing it

It needs to constantly moving and changing to ensure this

 

[NoobPie]

The points system is something worth looking at but definetly open to interpretation on the worth of points

The whole system as it is at the moment and as it will be is somewhat of a handicapped system and like any handicapped system it needs constant change so that no groups or teams are given too much of an advantage or too much of a disadvantage, the landscape constantly changes as states like NSW get greater participation with their enormous population acadamies will need to go if the rest of the states dont get them

Isnt that the idea to grow the sport in those states and why they are spending millions doing it

It needs to constantly moving and changing to ensure this

I think it should be established on an objective basis and reviewed independently (as in a process independent of the AFL Executive at the least and perhaps even of the AFL Commission)

There is a tonne of evidence already of the relative strengths of different regions because we have decades of draft data. Overtime, if we moved to a points auction, we'd have ongoing data in terms of bid points and number of players from different regions / academies

Clubs would still be endowed with auction points inverse to their ladder positions. If clubs academies are under-performing they would have more points to outbid kids from academies in rich veins.

You would need to balance the need to reward success in academy development in the short to mid term, with equalisation in the longer term...so for instance if the Sydney Swans academy was producing far more players than its discount warranted than you would eventually reduce the discount.

 

[Richo83]

So apparently over 20 players (over a quarter) of draft picks in this years draft are likely to be subjected to priority matching bids because of academy membership (either NGA, father son or northern)

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/afl-draft-pool-drained-by-academies-20180502-p4zcxn.html

Obviously the slant in this article misses the obvious - the academies are clearly providing superior development than the existing development programs

Likewise, where there is much handwringing about Sydney about to snare the third top 3 worthy draft pick at a discount in just 4 years, the real lesson is, the Swans academy is clearly responsible for a quarter of the "top 3 worthies" over four years coming from Sydney and the Hunter. The year before last Heeney and Mills shared the rising star and coach's best young player awards between them

Surely the implication of all this is that these academies are the way forward for all elite pathway development?

How do we know the academies would produce players better than a non-aligned system? It's presumed, but there's plenty of gun kids coming from non-academy systems. I just don't understand why we need academies except maybe for clubs who struggle to develop talent in rugby heartland states. To be impartial, why does Richmond need an academy? I'll hope the academy is productive since academies are all the rage now but I'm pretty sure most of Richmond's premiership team wasn't grown in academies. Neither was Geelong's or Hawthorn's. The draft is already polluted with father-sons, academies and the like. I don't understand why the Victorian, West Australian and South Australian clubs need academies.

 

[NoobPie]

How do we know the academies would produce players better than a non-aligned system? It's presumed, but there's plenty of gun kids coming from non-academy systems. I just don't understand why we need academies except maybe for clubs who struggle to develop talent in rugby heartland states. To be impartial, why does Richmond need an academy? I'll hope the academy is productive since academies are all the rage now but I'm pretty sure most of Richmond's premiership team wasn't grown in academies. Neither was Geelong's or Hawthorn's. The draft is already polluted with father-sons, academies and the like. I don't understand why the Victorian, West Australian and South Australian clubs need academies.

The evidence is that the academies are clearly better than "non-alligned" system (either semi pro state league clubs or bureacratic constructed clubs). The fact that over a quarter of the draft this year might be academy based is a pretty telling. The clubs don't need academies themselves (I can't recall anyone at all making the case that they do!), it just appears they are far far better at running them. The evidence is growing and compelling. We will have a far better competition overall if all young talent (not just a fraction based on their post code or parentage) get access to AFL club academy development

 

[Marc_Remillard]

Uhh, the 1970s and 80s called.

There's no question that zones had a huge role in Hawthorn and Carlton's dominance for 2 decades, and the converse struggles of Melbourne, St Kilda and the Dogs.

Hell, there's a historical argument that the zones were brought in to counter Melbourne.

Absolutely correct. I'll go further, when zones were originally introduced they were meant to be swapped around so every club got access to the best areas, but certain clubs were able to have that changed.

I wonder which ones...

 

[Marc_Remillard]

The AFL are absolute morons. Instead of removing an inequality (northern academies) they broaden it to give every club an academy-lite and then want to expand it to go back to the future with the zone system. Making an inequitable system more widespread does not make it equal.

There's a reason the comp moved away from zones in the past, of course Eddie is for it, his club has more $$ to invest there and more political influence to manipulate the rules. Any system that can be manipulated is flawed, that is why the draft system is the best one because outside of tanking for picks there's not a lot of room for manipulation.

The AFL know and understand how much damage they have done to the game by introducing the Northern Academies, they don't want to get rid of them so they'll just keep ******* the competition up by introducing more ridiculous rules in a desperate attempt to even it up.

 

[NoobPie]

Absolutely correct. I'll go further, when zones were originally introduced they were meant to be swapped around so every club got access to the best areas, but certain clubs were able to have that changed.

I wonder which ones...

The point is that it won't be some old school fix, it would need to be based on objective data....which is great because we have it through draft outcomes....and it would still be subjected to an auction/draft system where clubs are endowed by their ladder position

The key is the best entities would be in charge of elite pathway development - i.e. the professional AFL clubs

 

[NoobPie]

The AFL know and understand how much damage they have done to the game by introducing the Northern Academies, they don't want to get rid of them so they'll just keep ******* the competition up by introducing more ridiculous rules in a desperate attempt to even it up.

Yes, the northern academies have done horrific damage to the game bringing in Heeney, Mills, Hipwood, Bowes etc...scatter you super talented new south welshmen and Queenslanders, begone...we don't want you here!

 

[Demonic Ascent]

The only way it works for equalisation is if you rotate the zones yearly or every 3 years, otherwise the AFLhad wasted millions upon millions investing in GWS and GC.

They said they'd do that last time zones were implemented - problem was the strong clubs were happy with their zones so refused to rotate.

 

[Cleric]

I think Derwayne got the story wrong. It is on the agenda for SA and WA clubs to add Indgenous kids from all areas of their zones to their academys.
Victorian teams with their NGAs are allowed full access to Indigenous talent including metro areas. In typical VFL fashion, they did not allow WA and SA clubs acceas to Indigenous talent in their metro zones or even to country areas which have produced top talent such as Pt Lincoln.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Not necessarily true, the NBA has a draft and the same two teams have played off in the final three years in a row, doesn't sound equal to me at all. And in the NFL the Browns literally have won one game in two years

The NBA is a system where players just go where they want, that's what you're advocating. The Browns have won one game in 2 years because they are run by morons. I mean they just had two top 4 picks and picked a QB who is going to be an exact replica of their last big bust Johnny Football and then a CB when they could've had Chubb to partner Garrett and murder opposition offenses for the next decade.

 

[NoobPie]

I think Derwayne got the story wrong. It is on the agenda for SA and WA clubs to add Indgenous kids from all areas of their zones to their academys.
.

You could be right there. It would be an interesting development.

Perhaps population shares played a part? Victorians would have 5K per zone and WA clubs would have 38K

 

[Demonic Ascent]

The evidence is that the academies are clearly better than "non-alligned" system (either semi pro state league clubs or bureacratic constructed clubs). The fact that over a quarter of the draft this year might be academy based is a pretty telling. The clubs don't need academies themselves (I can't recall anyone at all making the case that they do!), it just appears they are far far better at running them. The evidence is growing and compelling. We will have a far better competition overall if all young talent (not just a fraction based on their post code or parentage) get access to AFL club academy development

Of course a greater proportion of draftees are coming out if academies because the AFL keeps expanding these academies. That doesn't prove anything though, those players are just being shifted from one pathway to another.

 

[NoobPie]

Of course a greater proportion of draftees are coming out if academies because the AFL keeps expanding these academies. That doesn't prove anything though, those players are just being shifted from one pathway to another.

They prove that:

1. (particularly in the northern academies) they get elite talents playing football that otherwise wouldn't

2. They provide superior development to those in them than those that can't access them.

 

[Cleric]

You could be right there. It would be an interesting development.

Perhaps population shares played a part? Victorians would have 5K per zone and WA clubs would have 38K

View attachment 491450

Dont forget that the AFLallowed Vic clubs to also carve up NT and Tasmania between themselves. Thomas is an indigenous kid from a metro zone, but allocated to North.

 

[Chaisa]

Perhaps population shares played a part? Victorians would have 5K per zone and WA clubs would have 38K

Yeah the majority of Aboriginal footballers tend to be from SA/WA, it'll be the Riverina issue 2.0 all over again.

 

[Mningasimisonda]

Not sure how well it will work, especially within Melbourne, but it's nice to encourage teams to pick local kids. Has to be fair though.

 

[NoobPie]

Dont forget that the AFLallowed Vic clubs to also carve up NT and Tasmania between themselves. Thomas is an indigenous kid from a metro zone, but allocated to North.

Yep, good point...it certainly evens it up

Yeah the majority of Aboriginal footballers tend to be from SA/WA, it'll be the Riverina issue 2.0 all over again.

I think it increases the case for just going full academy zone system but just apply some discount system in inverse proportion to each regions strength

 

[Cleric]

Yep, good point...it certainly evens it up



I think it increases the case for just going full academy zone system but just apply some discount system in inverse proportion to each regions strength

I think there is a bigger issue, and maybe one the AFL is thinking abiut now. We have spent a s**t ton of money chasing talent from Ireland and now the USA. Without a doubt, the biggest untapped talent pool for AFL is indigenous kids. The AFL need to push this area, as it has the biggest payoff ability compared to Ireland etc.
So allow all AFL clubs to develop indigenous talent in their acadmies, as this will be the best way to get results.

 

[NoobPie]

I think there is a bigger issue, and maybe one the AFL is thinking abiut now. We have spent a s**t ton of money chasing talent from Ireland and now the USA. Without a doubt, the biggest untapped talent pool for AFL is indigenous kids. The AFL need to push this area, as it has the biggest payoff ability compared to Ireland etc.
So allow all AFL clubs to develop indigenous talent in their acadmies, as this will be the best way to get results.

I don't think the AFL have spent that much on irish and US players. They have a "combine" which probably costs a few hundred grand a year. There are indigenous academies already at the state and national level and a national team goes on a tour every year....I think though the key is that the AFL clubs have the resources, capabilities and brand to do it all far more effectively

 

[Troystenvic]

So if you support and develop good juniors you get punished?

Sounds like the Swans doesnt it. Hmmmmm

 

[____]

The NBA is a system where players just go where they want, that's what you're advocating. The Browns have won one game in 2 years because they are run by morons. I mean they just had two top 4 picks and picked a QB who is going to be an exact replica of their last big bust Johnny Football and then a CB when they could've had Chubb to partner Garrett and murder opposition offenses for the next decade.

If the NBA is a system where players can go where they want, then why is there a draft?

Also from my understanding the NBA doesn't really have a salary cap. Again in the NRL players have free choice but there is a salary cap and it is enforced properly, the amount of unique premiers and all other facts prove it is the salary cap, not the draft, that works towards building an even comp

 

[Marc_Remillard]

Yes, the northern academies have done horrific damage to the game bringing in Heeney, Mills, Hipwood, Bowes etc...scatter you super talented new south welshmen and Queenslanders, begone...we don't want you here!

Are you another one who believes the lies that guys like Mills are only playing AFL because of the Northern academies?

The force is strong in this one

 

[NoobPie]

Are you another one who believes the lies that guys like Mills are only playing AFL because of the Northern academies?

The force is strong in this one

Naah, I'm just not an idiot who believes whatever he needs to believe to validate his prejudices

Mills crossed over to the football when he was 13, initially as a fill in and was immediately placed in the academy. But don't take my word for it, take it from the horses mouth...

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/n...s/news-story/b0b8b2c3014009452ce388ed53dcaaa0

and here's Isaac Heeney's old man...

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-02-16/he-just-wants-to-play

I like this quote...."But Rochelle admitted they both used to deride AFL before their sons – including their eldest Beau - started training with the academy."

There'll be some kids that would have played footy anyway but the academies are almost certainly improving them anyway. Others, like Heeney and Mills, would almost certainly not be playing at all if not for the academies

 

[Monkey King]

Second round of the draft should be zone selections for all clubs, including academies. If your boy goes in the first round, then so be it, the first round should be fixed by draft order to keep the process balanced. At least that way all clubs have a shot at selecting the players who end up going as zone/academy selections.