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You value a shallow comp vs a deep comp?
Richmond 2017-20 v Hawthorn 2012-15
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You value a shallow comp vs a deep comp?
SSSSSS
Brownlow Medallist
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Even competition is more valuable in something like the EPL where it is a war of attrition requiring a high standard maintained over a course of 38 matches.
In any sort of knockout competition a stronger top end is more valuable as you are pitting the cream of the crop against each other.
It's why I daresay any Geelong supporter would rate 2011 as a more significant victory compared to 2022 as any one of the Geelong, Collingwood or Hawthorn sides of that year would have absolutely pissed it in in a 2022 comp.
That is true. Albeit I think we’re still a bit dazed about jagging one in 2022 as not many of us saw it coming.
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We're reaching oversatuation point with Tiger jealousy.... take a holiday Dusty....
Tacking onto Dimma's fervent assertion that he is the 'next messiah'....
Tacking onto Dimma's fervent assertion that he is the 'next messiah'....
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No I’m saying winning in a top heavy comp means you’re real good
It’s a different question as to whether it makes for more entertainment for all supporters etc
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- #133
I don’t get the ‘compromised drafts’ argument.
Were Sydney going to have a magical influx of gun players if it wasn’t for the Suns and Giants? No.
Sydney were always good and won a flag themselves in 2012.
Fremantle were finalists in 2010 and 2012, won 9 games in 2011. They might have had 1-2 players of some minor worth by the time they dropped the GF in 2013 but it wasn’t changing the result. Geelong who Hawthorn beat in the prelim were not impacted by it either and were still a gun side.
West coast were the most impacted as they finished with just 4 wins at the end of 2010 so missed a great chance to get some high picks.
Instead they just had to settle for three premiership players, two of them all Australians in Andrew Gaff, Jack Darling and Scott Lycett. Thereafter they were back in the mix and didn’t miss much due to compromised drafts anyway.
Were Sydney going to have a magical influx of gun players if it wasn’t for the Suns and Giants? No.
Sydney were always good and won a flag themselves in 2012.
Fremantle were finalists in 2010 and 2012, won 9 games in 2011. They might have had 1-2 players of some minor worth by the time they dropped the GF in 2013 but it wasn’t changing the result. Geelong who Hawthorn beat in the prelim were not impacted by it either and were still a gun side.
West coast were the most impacted as they finished with just 4 wins at the end of 2010 so missed a great chance to get some high picks.
Instead they just had to settle for three premiership players, two of them all Australians in Andrew Gaff, Jack Darling and Scott Lycett. Thereafter they were back in the mix and didn’t miss much due to compromised drafts anyway.
Wot about 08? That one still stings a bit eh? ;-)Here’s a tiny tip…we don’t care we really really really don’t give 2020 a second worth of thought
2022 however …
It hurt but knowing we did something similar to Collingwood in 2011 eased it a bit.
The overall gap between Collingwood and us was closer than the overall gap between us and hawthorn in 2008 so it’s not quite as much of a retrospective thrill but in saying that we were given no chance at the start of 2011 and even after smoking the Pies late in the season everyone just dismissed it as a nothing game. To beat them three times when no one else took a game off them nearly blanked out 2008. And in fairness St Kilda were nearly as dominant in 2009 as well and we got one off them too so they helped ease it somewhat.
Power Raid
We Exist To Win Premierships
I hear you
But winning a three-peat against only one or two quality sides (when others couldn’t rebuild) is statistically more likely than a deep comp
The strategy deployed by the tigers was a stroke of genius
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- #138
Exactly, all those Hawthorn players are household names, outside of Martin and Riewoldt the Richmond side is nobodies. Oh wait Castagna is also known for…
…reasons.
Is that true? Much smaller sample size I know but to use cricket as an example, the West Indies produced the most lengthy and challenged streak in cricket history at a time when every side bat newcomers Sri Lanka, and for about 6 years Australia, was good. For almost all of the 80s Pakistan and New Zealand had arguably their best ever teams before NZ trumped it with their current side. India were a force at home and had their greatest pace bowler in Kapil Dev, and England were strong until 89 when they coughed up the ashes. Australia were suddenly strong again but still lost two more series to the Windies. SA admittedly weren’t around and may have been the best equipped side to beat them for much of that period. West Coast won two comps in the 90s when Geelong, Essendon, Adelaide, Carlton and North Melbourne were all vying for their crown, the dogs made 7 finals series in 9 years at that point as well.
Geelong won a couple of flags when St Kilda, West Coast, The Dogs, Collingwood, Hawthorn and Sydney were all finals regulars and Hawthorn were.
I don’t think there is any empirical evidence that is harder when there is a lot of depth of quality, than when there are 2-3 gun sides and then nothing. Just in my time watching there are three sides that have won multiple flags when there’s been 6-7 teams regularly thereabouts
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Falcon3518
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- #141
Exactly, all those Hawthorn players are household names, outside of Martin and Riewoldt the Richmond side is nobodies. Oh wait Castagna is also known for…
…reasons.
Surely you can troll better than that
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I thought people were joking with this argument - it has to be one of the silliest I've ever seen.
Do you really think a team that won a threepeat of dominant flag victories is in any way undermined by two meaningless home and away losses to a team that never made top 4? Or that those losses carried any significance whatsoever?
Every single year average teams knock off good teams - it is genuinely meaningless. Do you think Hawthorn (who are favourites on here for the spoon) after beating a dominant Geelong in 2022, can honestly say that our next premiership side is better because our current s**t side beat them that time? That's honestly as dumb as it gets.
Hawthorn, in its worst season in memory, comfortably beat Richmond in their last premiership year (2020). Not only does this undermine the "couldn't get near us when the roles were reversed" but it would be completely idiotic for me to suggest that because we beat your flag side when we were crap, our flag side is obviously much better (do you not hear how silly that sounds?)
Not to mention of course, that Hawthorn, like Richmond, did enough in the home and away and went to a whole new level in finals. Teams that beat us in the home and away often got thrashed in the finals. Hell, we even changed our game plan from keepings off in the home and away to a contested brand come finals.
In fact, digging a little deeper, the 3 flag Richmond side had a number of teams with whom they lost multiple times in home and away during their premiership years. Against GWS for example, they lost 3 times (in every single premiership year). Does that mean GWS were better? What happened in one of the Grand Finals again? Richmond also lost to Adelaide in 2 out of 3 years. Were they better? What happened in the GF again? They lost to Geelong in 2 of the 3 too. Richmond also lost St.Kilda and the bulldogs in 2 out of 3 years. That's 5 teams! If any of those teams win a flag and their supporters tell you they are better than Richmond 17,19 20 on the basis that when the were poor, they beat Richmond a couple of times, would you honestly agree?
Cos that's what some of you are arguing here and it is completely senseless, showing no understanding of the sport and the levels between a meaningless home and away encounter and what teams produce on the biggest stage, especially the great teams.
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- #143
There’s no method of measurement known to man that can truly get a reading on how deep Richmond’s insecurities actually go.
We smashed them in '12 as well & they should have won the flag that yr, they would have had they kicked str8. I use the comparison as it seems some may underestimate how good our Premiership teams actually were. Some say hawks were far superior yet they got beaten a few times by a lesser version of what our sides would become.
Can honestly look at this either way, as u well know we didn't have much trouble stopping "kick/mark" which was the style Hawthorn played during their time. In the end our style was designed to counter that style of play.
An interesting point this, IMO we don't win '19 if '18 didn't slip away from us (no "yr of redemption" etc). Do you think u still win '09 if u had have won '08 & not had it get away when, like us in '18 you should have won it in '08?
For mine it's more a question of, without the compromised drafts, could any of the then midfield teams have been able to step up to be a contender had the talent been available as it would have at any other time? Even of the sides you mention, Hawthorn more or less had them covered & they couldn't access any talent to get them that extra step closer or even jump ahead.
U may have missed the reason i mentioned it to begin with. The reason being that it's been said Hawks would beat our flag teams at a canter, not only is that underestimating how good our teams were, it's also that it wasn't a 1 off result. In all honesty if those teams played off it'd be a game that could go either way, both teams were very good at what they did & they played in completely different ways. Like Hawthorn we also added to the way we play come finals. 1, to say 1 side would win at a canter is silly in a hypothetical game & 2, we'll never get supporters of either team agree on which way it would go as we both have legit reasons as to why our teams would win.
I am not sure how we are seen to be insecure. Our team was bloody good at what they did & had prepared to beat all other teams that were around at the time with the way they each played, as had the other sides mentioned in their era's. What's wrong with us saying our team is up there with the others when ppl deny it? We honestly believe we had a bloody decent team.
It’s a point that’s often raised - do we have the hunger in 09 if we have already won two and maybe in the latter stages of that GF against the saints which was such a battle of wills rather than skills there may have been an element of it: we played like a desperate team in that game rather than the well oiled machine we had been and you could say something similar about the focus and relentlessness of Richmond in 2019 but I think deep down both sets of players would like to think it was a golden chance missed for 3 in a row. Maybe in 09 st Kilda would have gone in against a two time reigning premier scared of what they were up against and just gone to water. They didn’t. They certainly didn’t play their best footy but they didn’t play scared either
