Richmond 2017/20 vs 3 peat Lions, Hawks and Geelong of 2007/11

[threesixpio]

Still feel Richmond has had an easier run in that the next best team is not as challenging as many of the other contenders for the other three teams - equalising working.

I also add that Hawthorn is the only team to ruin the legacy of one of the other three contenders (2008).

However, Richmond’s win this year makes them very impressive to me. It was a come from behind win firstly. It was also a year with a lot of adversity for many. 2020 has definitely improved my view of the Tiges dynasty.

Dusty has every right to claim being one of the best big game players ever. Superstar

When I compare them all ....I reluctantly say....



Brisbane. They were amazing

 

[Roby]

Brisbane and Geelong clearly the best. Richmond the worst of the lot.

Brisbane won three consecutive Grand Finals as the away team. Up against an Essendon side that had been dominant for three seasons in 2001, embarrassed the Pies in 2003, were unbeatable in finals at the Gabba beating teams by massive margins.

Geelong also had to play other Victorian teams in their Grand Finals apart from 2007, including MCG tenants in 2008 and 2011.

Hawthorn had home advantage against interstate teams 2012-15 despite only earning that home ground advantage as the higher ranked team in 2012 and 2013. 2014 and 2015 Sydney and West Coast finished higher, with West Coast even belting Hawthorn in the 2015 QF. Play the GF at Subiaco as well and West Coast win.

Richmond have really benefited from playing suspect opposition (compared to say Brisbane or Geelong). Mentally weak Crows in 2017, 13 win GWS in 2019, Geelong team in 2020 that almost always falls apart when the stakes are highest.

Not to mention in 2017 EF they got home field advantage despite being the away side against Geelong, home field advantage despite being the lower ranked side than the Crows in the GF. Play the GF at Adelaide Oval and it's likely Adelaide win (Richmond had a very poor record away from the MCG).

There is no HGA in grand finals. Your whole logic is flawed.

 

[Roby]

How bad is the comp at the moment if we are the best team to not win a premiership the past 4 years? Pretty sure we are the only side to not win a flag and play in at least 3 prelims since 2017

I don't know. I wasn't the one that started saying that the competition was diluted. By the way this Richmond played in the Hawks era.

 

[Roby]

Geelong’s defence, Brisbane’s midfield, Richmond’s forwardline with the umpiring of Hawthorn couldn’t be defeated.

You mean Geelong's umpiring. You three time premiership now relegated is now relegated to the scrap heap. Oh and don't forget the umpires have you a goal for Hawkins point.

 

[threesixpio]

Brisbane Lions - very good
Geelong - very good
Hawthorn - very good
Richmond - very good.

How's that for an accurate assessment?

It’s very good AH

 

[Pistol Night]

I would love to watch this current Tigers team vs the peak Hawks team.

The slow controlled possession style of the Hawks as they try to pick apart the Tigers

vs

The manic pressure and in your face style of the Tigers as they try to force us to turn it over.

Very very different teams, would be fascinating to see.

Tigers wouldnt get near the Hawks outfit that rolled out in the 2014 GF IMO. Brutal dismantling of Sydney

 

[db26]

I still rate the lions as the best side I have seen they we're a mean machine.Tigers in the pack with cats,hawks.

 

[My Cotchin Rules]

1. Brisbane Lions 01 to 04. As much as we like to play down the MCG advantage to Vic clubs on GF its actually there. Lions did it 3 years in a row & could of won 4.

2. Geelong 07 to 11. I have them ahead of Hawks because of the way they won them and who they were against. All 3 against Vic teams. 2008 was probably there most dominant year (similar to Rich 2018) should of won 4.

3. Hawthorn 12 to 14. Magnificent team full of stars but have them just below cats because of the team's they faced in GF. All travelling teams. Won 3 in a row so puts them ahead of Richmond.

4. Richmond 17 to 20. Great side but 2 of the 3 were against travelling teams although the crows were powerful in 2017. This year's premiership for me is the most difficult for obvious reasons. Should of won 2018 but that one bad half in the PF ruined a possible 4 peat.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Richmond are clearly the best away from home out of the four. They won a premiership while playing most of the season outside of their home state. They now have a 4-1 record in finals on the road. Compare that to the others:

Hawthorn: 1-1 away from Melbourne. They only played the 2 games in Perth in 2015 and split them.
Brisbane: 5-2 away from the Gabba. An extra win but not as consistent.
Geelong: 0-0. The Cats were never tested away from home. No team benefited more from playing all their finals at the MCG than Geelong

 

[74561347]

There is no HGA in grand finals. Your whole logic is flawed.

i would tell you where youre wrong, but i have neither the time or the crayons to explain it to you

 

[HairyO]

Yeah the only ones not saying Geelong or Brisbane are pretty much Hawthorn or Richmond supporters only.


Hawthorn could’ve easily had 0 premierships. It’s having grit to win prelims by under a goal but at some point luck plays a large part in that.

Geelong had an off day in the GF as arguably one of the best teams of all time in 08. Play that game 10 times and Geelong wins 7-8 of them.

That’s logic of course..over actually watching each of the teams.

Could have had 0. Yet far more likely to have had 5.

Hawks no good even though they beat the unbeatable Cats in 2008.

Etc.

BF logic.

 

[HairyO]

Geelong’s defence, Brisbane’s midfield, Richmond’s forwardline with the umpiring of Hawthorn couldn’t be defeated.

No mention of Bomber's mate Dank?

You list could use a little work.

 

[Trahanas22]

Richmond are the best coached team I’ve ever seen. Their system has completely broken football - they are just so different to everything else we have seen, with their wins really coming from an emphasis on speed/tackling and disciplined structures forcing turnovers.

What makes it amazing is how unconditional it is. They had utterly ordinary performances from half the team yesterday, including Lynch, Riewoldt, Houli, etc, they looked sluggish for basically the whole first half, and still won the game in a canter. And aside from Martin being out in a position to succeed, it’s basically unrelated to star power. Their key forwards are basically there to just contest, and could be replaced in a second. They have a million small forwards and totally forgettable midfielders (McIntosh? Lambert? Even Cotchin at this point is big ordinary). But they just win or halve contests, scramble the ball forward, hold their position and stick their tackles, and eventually opponents lose their nerve and fall apart.

We have honestly never seen anything like this. Brisbane, Hawthorn and Geelong all relied on a heavy dose of star power. Even 2017 Richmond did to some extent too, but this is really diffeenet. And what’s worse is no one around the league seems to have any idea how to beat it. They narrowly lost a 2018 PF against a team who did basically the same thing back but have doubled down on their strategy since. They’re occasionally vulnerable to a team who goes all out attack a la Brisbane at their best, or for patches of games to a team who can dominate clearances, but their game plan is so much higher percentage than that. I seriously think that they will either win every premiership, or lose to a fluke effort, every year for at least the next 5 years. And bizarrely, while the other great teams had probably 7-8 ‘memorable’ players each, other than Dusty and maybe Shia Bolton, this team honestly has no one remarkable (on current form) at all...

During the Grand Final week, Geelong posters kept making fun of the Richmond playing style. The only difference between Richmond and Auskick, they said, was that Auskick is played by kids. Their comments were deeply steeped in irony, an unintended prophecy. Because there is -indeed- another important difference. In Auskick, both kiddie teams roll and tumble around the ball, until the game is over. In the adult version, as the game moves towards its ending, its only the Richmond kiddies that are doing that. Fourth quarter QF2017, PF2019, GF2020…


Richmond, the Auskick dynasty!


Hail the glorious hacks!

 

[lordbob]

Richmond and all experienced well drilled teams has a big advantage this year over the younger up and coming teams due to reduced training during the year additionally teams who had bigger bodies/more of an inside gameplan also fared better due to shorter quarters. That goes for both grandfinal teams and is as such definitely an * against this years win. Great come from behind win though and would therefore be 4th out of those

Its also convenient that the OP ignores hawks 08 win although that was really the start of the era. why dont we just base it on geelong's 08-11 ? same number of years.

Maths is easy,

4 flags(inc 3 in a row) > 3 flags in a row > 3 flags (incl B2B) > 3 flags

Hawks > Brissy > Richmond > Geelong

If Richmond win it next year then happy to compare Hawks v Richmond as that would be a much tougher comparison but it would still be 4/5 vs 4/4

 

[Roby]

1. Brisbane Lions 01 to 04. As much as we like to play down the MCG advantage to Vic clubs on GF its actually there. Lions did it 3 years in a row & could of won 4.

2. Geelong 07 to 11. I have them ahead of Hawks because of the way they won them and who they were against. All 3 against Vic teams. 2008 was probably there most dominant year (similar to Rich 2018) should of won 4.

3. Hawthorn 12 to 14. Magnificent team full of stars but have them just below cats because of the team's they faced in GF. All travelling teams. Won 3 in a row so puts them ahead of Richmond.

4. Richmond 17 to 20. Great side but 2 of the 3 were against travelling teams although the crows were powerful in 2017. This year's premiership for me is the most difficult for obvious reasons. Should of won 2018 but that one bad half in the PF ruined a possible 4 peat.

1. So as soon as Brisbane played an interstate side they lost by 40 points.

2. They're most dominated home and away season Geelong lost to the microbial Hawks in 08. They also lost a game by 80 points that season.

The following year they should've lost had umpiring been fair, they even had a wet Grand Final which clearly favored over the Saints. They also didn't lead at any change except the last quarter. Only team in history to do this.

In 11 Pies were unlucky with injuries that season despite this they still led half-way through the third quarter. Fair argument Geelong only have one legitimate premiership.

3. They faced travelling teams? Did the Hawks teleport to the Grand Final? I'm sure they needed some transport.

 

[Roby]

i would tell you where youre wrong, but i have neither the time or the crayons to explain it to you

You have nothing.

 

[Roby]

No mention of Bomber's mate Dank?

You list could use a little work.

Duh,that's why they were good Dank and umpires.

 

[Roby]

During the Grand Final week, Geelong posters kept making fun of the Richmond playing style. The only difference between Richmond and Auskick, they said, was that Auskick is played by kids. Their comments were deeply steeped in irony, an unintended prophecy. Because there is -indeed- another important difference. In Auskick, both kiddie teams roll and tumble around the ball, until the game is over. In the adult version, as the game moves towards its ending, its only the Richmond kiddies that are doing that. Fourth quarter QF2017, PF2019, GF2020…


Richmond, the Auskick dynasty!


Hail the glorious hacks!

I guess if Richmond play Auskick style they have no shortage of young talent to prosper with.

 

[Roby]

Richmond and all experienced well drilled teams has a big advantage this year over the younger up and coming teams due to reduced training during the year additionally teams who had bigger bodies/more of an inside gameplan also fared better due to shorter quarters. That goes for both grandfinal teams and is as such definitely an * against this years win. Great come from behind win though and would therefore be 4th out of those

Its also convenient that the OP ignores hawks 08 win although that was really the start of the era. why dont we just base it on geelong's 08-11 ? same number of years.

Maths is easy,

4 flags(inc 3 in a row) > 3 flags in a row > 3 flags (incl B2B) > 3 flags

Hawks > Brissy > Richmond > Geelong

If Richmond win it next year then happy to compare Hawks v Richmond as that would be a much tougher comparison but it would still be 4/5 vs 4/4

08' gets ignored because then it's easier then call the others dynasties.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

People can up with whatever reasons they want to justify why the team they liked the most was the best. They’ve all won 3 flags.

The only debate is whether or not Hawthorn’s 2008 is included in the discussion, because if it is, the answer is Hawthorn.

5 years between flags is a reasonable gap. And when talking about the Hawks of the 80’s the 78 flag is never mentioned, despite being just as far from 83 as 08 is from 13.

But the Hawks were contenders in 2011 & 2012 too. So they really only had a couple of years off.

 

[SA HAWK]

People can up with whatever reasons they want to justify why the team they liked the most was the best. They’ve all won 3 flags.

The only debate is whether or not Hawthorn’s 2008 is included in the discussion, because if it is, the answer is Hawthorn.

5 years between flags is a reasonable gap. And when talking about the Hawks of the 80’s the 78 flag is never mentioned, despite being just as far from 83 as 08 is from 13.

But the Hawks were contenders in 2011 & 2012 too. So they really only had a couple of years off.

I wouldn’t include our 08 flag too many different players.

 

[lethalselbow]

The Hawthorn & Brisbane 3-peaters have to come in ahead of Geelong & Richmond. Richmond have the chance to add that extra premiership to lift themselves above the others with 4 from 5.

 

[lordbob]

hawks 2012 gf team had 10 of the 2008 gf team players in it including the majority of the spine/core players. 15/22 of the 08 team was still in the '12 list. Hard to argue that the 08 gf doesnt belong in the discussion when the majority of the 08 team is still contributing at the start of the period in the Op.

Core:
hodge mitchel, franklin, rioli, birchall, lewis, roughhead

others in both:
sewell, young, ellis


Other players still on the list but not playing in those teams were:
Renouf, gillham, guerra, osborne, bateman

Josh kennedy was on hawks list for 08 but played for sydney in 2012

 

[Darren Moore]

There is no HGA in grand finals. Your whole logic is flawed.

Richmond had a massive home ground advantage in the 2017 and 2019 Grand Finals.

 

[db26]

Richmond are the best coached team I’ve ever seen. Their system has completely broken football - they are just so different to everything else we have seen, with their wins really coming from an emphasis on speed/tackling and disciplined structures forcing turnovers.

What makes it amazing is how unconditional it is. They had utterly ordinary performances from half the team yesterday, including Lynch, Riewoldt, Houli, etc, they looked sluggish for basically the whole first half, and still won the game in a canter. And aside from Martin being out in a position to succeed, it’s basically unrelated to star power. Their key forwards are basically there to just contest, and could be replaced in a second. They have a million small forwards and totally forgettable midfielders (McIntosh? Lambert? Even Cotchin at this point is big ordinary). But they just win or halve contests, scramble the ball forward, hold their position and stick their tackles, and eventually opponents lose their nerve and fall apart.

We have honestly never seen anything like this. Brisbane, Hawthorn and Geelong all relied on a heavy dose of star power. Even 2017 Richmond did to some extent too, but this is really diffeenet. And what’s worse is no one around the league seems to have any idea how to beat it. They narrowly lost a 2018 PF against a team who did basically the same thing back but have doubled down on their strategy since. They’re occasionally vulnerable to a team who goes all out attack a la Brisbane at their best, or for patches of games to a team who can dominate clearances, but their game plan is so much higher percentage than that. I seriously think that they will either win every premiership, or lose to a fluke effort, every year for at least the next 5 years. And bizarrely, while the other great teams had probably 7-8 ‘memorable’ players each, other than Dusty and maybe Shia Bolton, this team honestly has no one remarkable (on current form) at all...

I said the same thing compared to 17 and 19 we haven't been at our best even this year not playing 4 qtrs many games and still getting job done and won the flag.Still so much upside in this side and must say they have another gear and not many can go with them.

We don't have the A graders of the lions back in the day but our team is more then Martin and Bolton alot of B grade players with a mean back 6 to.