Richmond 2017/20 vs 3 peat Lions, Hawks and Geelong of 2007/11

[Barry_Badrinath]

that game between saints and geelong at etihad when they were both undefeated is the best game of footy I've seen, two teams at the top of their game! agree saints bottom 6 were weak but they were so well structured and coached it made up for it.

Kinda like Richmond

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Brad Scott to tag Dusty, who goes to Brown, Lynch and Bradshaw?

I'd say Rance on Lynch, Astbury on young Jonathon Brown and Grimes on Bradshaw.

 

[kid_a]

We wiped the floor with the most talent rich team of this era in 2019, to think we couldn’t dismantle any of the “talent rich” teams of the other dynasties is ridiculous. We’ll always be underrated even if we win 4 in a row, people will just refuse to accept it as there’s always an excuse.

I've never subscribed to the claim that gws are the most talent filled side.
Yes, they have/had a lot of talent thrust onto them, but as we all no a talented youngster doesn't always develop into an a grade AFL footballer.
They're up there but I'd say its virtually impossible to claim which team has the most 'talent'....how do you measure 'talent'?

 

[Virus]

Makes me laugh that statistically speaking we are the worst since we went 3 in 5 yet gave the most humiliating hidings out of the lot and most people would agree that the Saints and Pies of this time were far harder competition than what any of the other 3x premiership teams had to go through (in particular Hawthorn).

Those late 2000s to early 2010s Saints and Pies would knock off every single runner up since 2000 except Geelong 2008.

 

[Andyy]

My opinion aligns with the poll, Lions, Hawks, Geelong then Richmond. More based on who was best to watch than who was best which is unknowable.

I think tigers are great to watch.

Loads of pressure and tackling, fast ball movement, tight defence. Attacking football. Requires clean hands, fast legs and a load of fitness.

I see a lot of people bagging the look of our plan but it holds up in finals compared to slow + possession orientated plans (Pies, Cats).

I prefer the Richmond method. More contests.

 

[Andyy]

Makes me laugh that statistically speaking we are the worst since we went 3 in 5 yet gave the most humiliating hidings out of the lot and most people would agree that the Saints and Pies of this time were far harder competition than what any of the other 3x premiership teams had to go through (in particular Hawthorn).

Those late 2000s to early 2010s Saints and Pies would knock off every single runner up since 2000 except Geelong 2008.

Saints inability to win a flag in that period is a real shame.

Great team. Really underachieved and poorly coached.

Pies I am less convinced, had some stars but I thought they were less talented/more hungry in 2010 than Saints.
Same with Hawks vs Cats 2008, Tigers vs Crows 2017, Dogs vs Swans 2016 etc.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Not that it matters since "best dynasty" is nothing more than an opinion, but I'm content for us to sit fourth of the four.

Club and next best for each era

Brisbane 2001-04 - B&F Black (22)/Voss (26), Black (23), Voss (28), Lappin (28)

Club	W	L	D	Win %​	For	Ag	%
Brisbane	75	25	1	74.8​	11175	8440	132.4
Port Adelaide	74	25	-	74.7​	10423	8220	126.8

Geelong 2007-11 - B&F Ablett (23), Corey (26), Ablett (25)/Enright (28), Selwood (22), Enright (30)

Club	W	L	D	Win %	For	Ag	%
Geelong	105	20	-	84.0	14217	9545	148.9
Collingwood	86	37	2	69.6	12728	10250	124.2

Hawthorn 2012-15 - B&F Mitchell (29), Gibson (29), Lewis (28), Gibson (31)

Club	W	L	D	Win %	For	Ag	%
Hawthorn	80	21	-	79.2	11447	7897	145.0
Sydney	70	28	1	71.2	9549	7265	131.4

Richmond 2017-20 - B&F Martin (26), Riewoldt (29), Prestia (26), Short (24)

Club	W	L	D	Win %	For	Ag	%
Richmond	71	23	1	75.3	8189	6488	126.2
West Coast	61	30	-	67.0​	7654	6767	113.1

Think media attitudes towards Richmond throughout have been very different to the other three. No three-time champion has lacked skill, had as many unheralded players, been "worked out" or just plain dismissed like Richmond.

 

[Ceehook]

Richmond are the best coached team I’ve ever seen. Their system has completely broken football - they are just so different to everything else we have seen, with their wins really coming from an emphasis on speed/tackling and disciplined structures forcing turnovers.

What makes it amazing is how unconditional it is. They had utterly ordinary performances from half the team yesterday, including Lynch, Riewoldt, Houli, etc, they looked sluggish for basically the whole first half, and still won the game in a canter. And aside from Martin being out in a position to succeed, it’s basically unrelated to star power. Their key forwards are basically there to just contest, and could be replaced in a second. They have a million small forwards and totally forgettable midfielders (McIntosh? Lambert? Even Cotchin at this point is big ordinary). But they just win or halve contests, scramble the ball forward, hold their position and stick their tackles, and eventually opponents lose their nerve and fall apart.

We have honestly never seen anything like this. Brisbane, Hawthorn and Geelong all relied on a heavy dose of star power. Even 2017 Richmond did to some extent too, but this is really diffeenet. And what’s worse is no one around the league seems to have any idea how to beat it. They narrowly lost a 2018 PF against a team who did basically the same thing back but have doubled down on their strategy since. They’re occasionally vulnerable to a team who goes all out attack a la Brisbane at their best, or for patches of games to a team who can dominate clearances, but their game plan is so much higher percentage than that. I seriously think that they will either win every premiership, or lose to a fluke effort, every year for at least the next 5 years. And bizarrely, while the other great teams had probably 7-8 ‘memorable’ players each, other than Dusty and maybe Shia Bolton, this team honestly has no one remarkable (on current form) at all...

I think what you are seeing is the AFL world working out how to combat tall forwards
everyone studies everyone else engage the body third man up , stop the run and leap , block up the space to lead into
the defence of all top 4 sides was really good , super consistent , they were hard to score against all year
even Adelaide in the last h&a game defended really well

the only response todate seems to be the tall forward has to crash packs and bring the ball to ground

someone will work out a way to unpick this sort of defence and they will be in for a run of success

the Brisbane Lions 2000-2003 was a team of champions

Geelong 2007-2020 was a team of champions and has gone to a good team well coached and very consistent

Hawks were both studded with stars and had innovative coaching

Richmond has a super star in Dusty but has built and executed a very team oriented game style
elements of the surging the ball forward have been around in the top sides for decades but they have blended that into modern tactics
and come up with a winning formula and it clearly irks a lot of people a premier with not enough stars

this chapter of AFL history is still open
if we stop on the 3 premierships we'll be seen as below Lions , Cats & Hawks in the 2000 + era

but if we add to that tally in the next 3 years by adapting and evolving the conversation around who was the best changes

it gives us a reason to tune in next year

 

[Cotchins Hair Piece]

Obviously a fantastic effort, but it’s not a 3-peat if you don’t win then all in a row.

 

[Whiskers]

This is how weak 2019-20 is.
Geelong 2nd best side atm, this includes.
Ablett at 36 with a broken shoulder, not mid 20s in Brownlow winning form.
Selwood at 32 not 22.
Taylor at 34 not 24.
Henderson and not Scarlett.
Miers - Stevie J.
Dahlhaus - Chapman
Danger - Bartel.
Stanley - Ottens

I’ve got no idea how we haven’t completely fallen off the cliff but it’s pretty clear what teams of the past had to deal with compared to Richmond in 19-20.

I know it looks like I’m trying to take away from the tigers but I’m only realising myself just how weak the competition is.
Fact is flags matter and Richmond right now are winning lots of them and could quite easily win more.

 

[Macpotata]

This is how weak 2019-20 is.
Geelong 2nd best side atm, this includes.
Ablett at 36 with a broken shoulder, not mid 20s in Brownlow winning form.
Selwood at 32 not 22.
Taylor at 34 not 24.
Henderson and not Scarlett.
Miers - Stevie J.
Dahlhaus - Chapman
Danger - Bartel.
Stanley - Ottens

I’ve got no idea how we haven’t completely fallen off the cliff but it’s pretty clear what teams of the past had to deal with compared to Richmond in 19-20.

I know it looks like I’m trying to take away from the tigers but I’m only realising myself just how weak the competition is.
Fact is flags matter and Richmond right now are winning lots of them and could quite easily win more.

'' This is how weak 2019-20 is ''
'' I know it looks like I’m trying to take away from the tigers but I’m only realising myself just how weak the competition is ''


It doesn't look like you're taking anything away from the Tigers. It looks like you taking away EVERYTHING from them.



Lol nice try. Poor form.

 

[Whiskers]

'' This is how weak 2019-20 is ''
'' I know it looks like I’m trying to take away from the tigers but I’m only realising myself just how weak the competition is ''


It doesn't look like you're taking anything away from the Tigers. It looks like you taking away EVERYTHING from them.



Lol nice try. Poor form.

Ok even if I were trying to discredit them, what could you possibly disagree with?
Don’t just try to be nice to them for the sake of it. They are the best side now, but we are the 2nd are we not?
How does our team compare to 10 years ago?

 

[dean33]

Ok even if I were trying to discredit them, what could you possibly disagree with?
Don’t just try to be nice to them for the sake of it. They are the best side now, but we are the 2nd are we not?
How does our team compare to 10 years ago?

You are looking at teams based on individual players, that’s not how teams are rated. The Geelong team of the lat3 80’s early 90’s was supremely talented however wasn’t good enough to win a flag as they it’s about team not individuals. Right now both the Geelong 07-11 team and Richmond 17-20 team have 3 flags. That Geelong era is over while this Richmond dynasty shows no signs of slowing down.

 

[juss]

Brad Scott to tag Dusty, who goes to Brown, Lynch and Bradshaw?

Lions flag era Jonathan Brown is not really a significant threat, he wasn't near his peak which he hit after the Lions premiership era, in around 07/08/09.
Because of that, you'd probably have Astbury/Balta on Lynch as they have size and strength, and the second one plays on the far less threatening Brown.
Bradshaw was a good 3rd tall, Grimes or Broad are perfectly capable of playing that role. That would leave Vlastuin free to play as the spare, where he can excel in that role.

 

[juss]

This is how weak 2019-20 is.
Geelong 2nd best side atm, this includes.
Ablett at 36 with a broken shoulder, not mid 20s in Brownlow winning form.
Selwood at 32 not 22.
Taylor at 34 not 24.
Henderson and not Scarlett.
Miers - Stevie J.
Dahlhaus - Chapman
Danger - Bartel.
Stanley - Ottens

I’ve got no idea how we haven’t completely fallen off the cliff but it’s pretty clear what teams of the past had to deal with compared to Richmond in 19-20.

I know it looks like I’m trying to take away from the tigers but I’m only realising myself just how weak the competition is.
Fact is flags matter and Richmond right now are winning lots of them and could quite easily win more.

You are picking and choosing where it suits you, the game has evolved, a team is greater than the sum of its parts. That has never been truer than with the current Richmond team.

Just because Geelong have some different names and style, doesn't mean everything is worse. The 1990s had some of the game's greatest ever players in peak form. That doesn't mean the current Richmond wouldn't whip them off the park with guys like Castagna happily running around.

In terms of current Geelong, Ablett didn't play every week with a broken shoulder . It would be like me saying Richmond are so good they could beat anyone with 21 players and a guy with a torn calf every week....

You're also ignoring additions like Hawkins, who is far better than any Geelong KPF of that previous era, someone like Blicavs who is a 198cm 100kg endurance beast that is unique in the game, and guns in their own right like Stewart and Duncan.

Names on paper does not equate to how good a team is at winning games of football. Teamwork, tactics, and physical fitness will always be more important than looking at 22 names across eras. You can only compare a team to its peers at the time.

 

[Vassp]

This is how weak 2019-20 is.
Geelong 2nd best side atm, this includes.
Ablett at 36 with a broken shoulder, not mid 20s in Brownlow winning form.
Selwood at 32 not 22.
Taylor at 34 not 24.
Henderson and not Scarlett.
Miers - Stevie J.
Dahlhaus - Chapman
Danger - Bartel.
Stanley - Ottens

I’ve got no idea how we haven’t completely fallen off the cliff but it’s pretty clear what teams of the past had to deal with compared to Richmond in 19-20.

I know it looks like I’m trying to take away from the tigers but I’m only realising myself just how weak the competition is.
Fact is flags matter and Richmond right now are winning lots of them and could quite easily win more.

I could say Geelongs premierships are not as worthy because the deck was stacked with superstar talent while the lesser teams had to make do with not as many stars.
Let me swing it another way, its harder today to field a team of all out super stars then back then, so the advantage of the super teams is nearly impossible to achieve in this day and age, which makes Richmonds 17,19,20 GF wins all the more impressive and makes them a better team than those past teams.


If you want to be real the tigers "pressure, surge and running hand ball game plan' would beat those teams pretty easily. they would be lucky to get within 5 goals. Look at our GF winning margins in the last 3 wins.

 

[Andyy]

This is how weak 2019-20 is.
Geelong 2nd best side atm, this includes.
Ablett at 36 with a broken shoulder, not mid 20s in Brownlow winning form.
Selwood at 32 not 22.
Taylor at 34 not 24.
Henderson and not Scarlett.
Miers - Stevie J.
Dahlhaus - Chapman
Danger - Bartel.
Stanley - Ottens

I’ve got no idea how we haven’t completely fallen off the cliff but it’s pretty clear what teams of the past had to deal with compared to Richmond in 19-20.

I know it looks like I’m trying to take away from the tigers but I’m only realising myself just how weak the competition is.
Fact is flags matter and Richmond right now are winning lots of them and could quite easily win more.

What a load of one-eyed bollocks! Very easy to turn it around with some perspective:

Rance retired, one of the best KPD's in the league.
Cotchin 8 years past his best/Brownlow season and clearly well into the twilight.
Martin nowhere near his 2017 form.
Jack well past his peak, kicking about half his prior goal output.
Houli with a torn calf muscle in the first few minutes.
Vlastuin knocked out cold in the first few minutes.
Prestia + Edwards + Nankervis all playing less than half of the (already reduced) games in the season therefore lacking match fitness.
Soldo being injured, Nankervis therefore rucking largely by himself despite being underdone.

Years at the top being the most 'hunted' team in the league.

Constant media assassination of Lynch and undeserved scrutiny of the club all year.

Oh and still having the worst free kick differential in the AFL.

Brisbane the AFL darlings. Port the preferred underdogs. Geelong the romantic fairytale ending needed for Gary + poor Danger deserves a flag crap.



Honestly it's a credit to the Tigers that they have won another one when you look at the odds against them. You can only beat who's in front of you and Richmond has beaten them all. Crows and GWS gone to pits. Cats repeatedly unable to deliver in the big games. Tiges have consistently beaten all opponents bar the Collingwood preliminaryship (although IMO they approached 2018 poorly, tried to win every game too early, and would likely not have won 19 + 20 if they won it that year).

 

[Ok Boomer]

(1) Brisbane
(2) Hawthorn
(3) Geelong
(4) Richmond

I actually think that Geelong's absolute peak was the best (probably in 2008 when they didn't win!), but they didn't win three in a row or make four GF's in a row. As for Richmond, they aren't at the edge of the cliff yet despite some players getting older, the potential is there to achieve even more. It depends purely on motivation now.

 

[Ok Boomer]

Not that it matters since "best dynasty" is nothing more than an opinion, but I'm content for us to sit fourth of the four.

Club and next best for each era

Brisbane 2001-04 - B&F Black (22)/Voss (26), Black (23), Voss (28), Lappin (28)

Club	W	L	D	Win %​	For	Ag	%
Brisbane	75	25	1	74.8​	11175	8440	132.4
Port Adelaide	74	25	-	74.7​	10423	8220	126.8

Geelong 2007-11 - B&F Ablett (23), Corey (26), Ablett (25)/Enright (28), Selwood (22), Enright (30)

Club	W	L	D	Win %	For	Ag	%
Geelong	105	20	-	84.0	14217	9545	148.9
Collingwood	86	37	2	69.6	12728	10250	124.2

Hawthorn 2012-15 - B&F Mitchell (29), Gibson (29), Lewis (28), Gibson (31)

Club	W	L	D	Win %	For	Ag	%
Hawthorn	80	21	-	79.2	11447	7897	145.0
Sydney	70	28	1	71.2	9549	7265	131.4

Richmond 2017-20 - B&F Martin (26), Riewoldt (29), Prestia (26), Short (24)

Club	W	L	D	Win %	For	Ag	%
Richmond	71	23	1	75.3	8189	6488	126.2
West Coast	61	30	-	67.0​	7654	6767	113.1

Think media attitudes towards Richmond throughout have been very different to the other three. No three-time champion has lacked skill, had as many unheralded players, been "worked out" or just plain dismissed like Richmond.

"Fourth best dynasty" isn't a bad problem to have...

 

[Andyy]

(1) Brisbane
(2) Hawthorn
(3) Geelong
(4) Richmond

I actually think that Geelong's absolute peak was the best (probably in 2008 when they didn't win!), but they didn't win three in a row or make four GF's in a row. As for Richmond, they aren't at the edge of the cliff yet despite some players getting older, the potential is there to achieve even more. It depends purely on motivation now.

Something to be said for NOT winning the minor premiership.

How many premiers won the minor?

Arguably Richmond had its best regular season in 2018 but if you ask me the writing was on the wall for the last 6 rounds or so. Team looked tired, sore, and was winning games by very small margins. The Pies PF was a long time coming.

Need to time your run and I think in 2018 the Tigers got caught up with the idea of being 'unbeatable at the MCG' and 'defending premiers' and forgot to pace themselves a bit.

 

[Ok Boomer]

Something to be said for NOT winning the minor premiership.

How many premiers won the minor?

Arguably Richmond had its best regular season in 2018 but if you ask me the writing was on the wall for the last 6 rounds or so. Team looked tired, sore, and was winning games by very small margins. The Pies PF was a long time coming.

Need to time your run and I think in 2018 the Tigers got caught up with the idea of being 'unbeatable at the MCG' and 'defending premiers' and forgot to pace themselves a bit.

Good teams learn from experience too, now you guys didn't finish on top in 2019 and 2020 in my opinion because of injuries in '19 and COVID in '20 but if you did I doubt the same mistakes would have been made. I do think that first on the ladder can be overrated unless we are looking at an overwhelmingly dominant team in the Essendon 2000 mould, and we haven't seen that in some time. Geelong were probably in that category in 2008 and still lost.

 

[Football Tragic]

You just can't compare. Different era's, different game plans, different situations.

If Richmond were to line up against the other sides right now - I have now doubt we would beat them easily. Why? Certainly not based on individual talent. We would win because our game plan would take away their strengths and tactics. I'm not trying to be controversial but just realistic. In fact, our current team would probably embarrass the Richmond teams from the Hafey era too .

In the future (hopefully distant ), other teams will find a way to combat our game plan and render it outdated. Future flag winning teams from future decades would destroy our current side with superior tactics and game plan.

Right now though, we have the players and strategy, to take us forward. Until, other sides figure out a way to beat it, we could easily see more flags in the immediate future. The debate would become very interesting then!

 

[Greggy]

Brad Scott to tag Dusty, who goes to Brown, Lynch and Bradshaw?

Who locks the ball in their forward line? Not much defensive pressure coming from that group.

 

[M Malice]

Who locks the ball in their forward line? Not much defensive pressure coming from that group.

They did alright from 01-04,

 

[Hot Diggity]

Amazing how the tactics have changed in such a short period of time. Richmond is manic pressure, contested play, turnovers and imprecision, whilst Hawthorn was surgical precision with its kicking.

At the end of the day, you use a gameplan that suits your personnel and is successful.

The wheel will turn again soon and Richmond's style will no longer be successful. It happens.