Richmond 2017 v Ross Lyon's Saints & Dockers

[Nightrain]

Richmond did beat the 2013 Hawks. Comfortably. By 41 points. And this was when Luke McGuane and Orren Stephenson were getting games.

The new and improved 2017 model would probably go in favourites tbh

And we beat you blokes on your home deck this year and we were woeful. Your logic is kindygarden level.

 

[Nightrain]

Honestly the way we played on the day against a side that was full of talent and regarded as one of the most rounded teams in years suggests that we may well have beaten all the teams you listed.

Which gets back to my original post;
"The Tigers are the greatest team ever to play football".

Looking forward to the next Richmond is the greatest thread.

 

[HTT]

So how does it work? If other teams play well in home finals then it doesn't count unless it's Richmond. Your first paragraph perfectly sums up Richmond's final series;
- You played a Geelong team at home who didn't hit any highs, a game where you didn't deserve to play at home
- You played a depleted GWS team in the PF missing Cameron and Mumford who were then reduced to 21 when Cotchin took Shiel out early, at which point GWS were leading.
- You then got to play the side who finished first on your home deck, who shat themselves on the day

Then we have to hear about how great your team is and how great a coach Hardwick is when up until July this year half the posters on your board wanted him sacked.

Now this thread is trying to determine why Richmond are so great when Lyon hasn't won a flag, when truth be told he has never been afforded the "luxuries" Richmond get because of whatever reason.

You completely ignore the fact that Lyon's teams came up against 2 of the greatest sides in the last 10 years. How can you ignore this fact? Do you really believe that if Richmond played 2009 Cats or 2013 Hawks you would have won? Can you answer that honestly? Would Richmond '17 have even gotten close to either of those teams? Would the Hawks or Cats sides have allowed Richmond to play as you have described above? Why roast Lyon and his game plan when it is quite obvious the year's his sides were challenging there were better teams contending than there were this year? Take out the Hawks and Cats and Lyon would be a two time premiership coach.

09 cats: definitely.
13 hawks: probably
I’d be concerned for the development of the game if in 8 years we couldn’t improve enough to beat the premiers. They were more dominant teams overall, but they introduced equalisation to ensure sides couldn’t be so dominant. It honestly appears that no one gets the point of equalisation. It means that the gap between top and bottom is less and when you’re at the top, you get less shots at it, but the cycle comes around quicker. It’s every bit as difficult to win a flag in any year.
Equalisation, different talent pool and different tactics mean it’s impossible to compare teams between years. Do you honestly think the 1920 tigers would get within 30 goals of the 2017 tigers? No. But that doesn’t make them s**t. Teams in 2017 have 97 years extra knowledge on them. 8 years extra knowledge on Geelong 09, and 4 years extra knowledge on Hawthorn 13. Geelong were the best team in 2009, Hawthorn were the best team in 2013, Richmond were the best team in 2017. Someone will be the best team in 2018.

 

[King Brown]

So if Lyon came up against the greatest teams ever in Thompson's Geelong from 2007-2009 and Clarkson's Hawthorn from 2013-2015, then how did the following clubs win:

Hawthorn 2008 (Lyon's St Kilda made preliminary finals)
Collingwood 2010 (played Lyon's St Kilda)
Sydney 2012 (Lyon's Fremantle made semi finals)
Bulldogs 2016
Richmond 2017 (missed finals the previous year, like Lyon's Fremantle)

Lyon has been coaching in these years and failed to win a premiership in any of them.

Maybe the criticism of him is spot on. He is a brilliant tactical coach, but his development and talent identification is third rate.

 

[Nightrain]

09 cats: definitely.
13 hawks: probably
I’d be concerned for the development of the game if in 8 years we couldn’t improve enough to beat the premiers. They were more dominant teams overall, but they introduced equalisation to ensure sides couldn’t be so dominant. It honestly appears that no one gets the point of equalisation. It means that the gap between top and bottom is less and when you’re at the top, you get less shots at it, but the cycle comes around quicker. It’s every bit as difficult to win a flag in any year.
Equalisation, different talent pool and different tactics mean it’s impossible to compare teams between years. Do you honestly think the 1920 tigers would get within 30 goals of the 2017 tigers? No. But that doesn’t make them s**t. Teams in 2017 have 97 years extra knowledge on them. 8 years extra knowledge on Geelong 09, and 4 years extra knowledge on Hawthorn 13. Geelong were the best team in 2009, Hawthorn were the best team in 2013, Richmond were the best team in 2017. Someone will be the best team in 2018.

Not necessarily. The game doesn't always improve. Like the stock market you would expect peaks and troughs.

I could see the Cats '09 beating the Tigers '17. You won on great pressure. You didn't have the greatest ever game plan. As much as you would like to think you weren't a hugely skilful side. I would expect a team like the Cats from days gone to beat you as I would the Hawks.

 

[Nightrain]

So if Lyon came up against the greatest teams ever in Thompson's Geelong from 2007-2009 and Clarkson's Hawthorn from 2013-2015, then how did the following clubs win:

Hawthorn 2008 (Lyon's St Kilda made preliminary finals)
Collingwood 2010 (played Lyon's St Kilda)
Sydney 2012 (Lyon's Fremantle made semi finals)
Bulldogs 2016
Richmond 2017 (missed finals the previous year, like Lyon's Fremantle)

Lyon has been coaching in these years and failed to win a premiership in any of them.

Maybe the criticism of him is spot on. He is a brilliant tactical coach, but his development and talent identification is third rate.

A bit harsh on the bloke.
2008 was his second year at the Saints.
2012 was his first at Freo.
How close was he in 2010?
2016/17 we have been crap.

What must you think of Worsfold's season last year?

Fact of the matter he took an average list who 99% of the footy universe did not rate in 2011 to a GF in 2 years. Not an easy task.

 

[King Brown]

2016/17 we have been crap.

That's the question you should be asking of him - why did this happen?

 

[Nightrain]

That's the question you should be asking of him - why did this happen?

I don't need to. I know the answer. So does he.

We're keeping it a secret but if I tell, you must promise not to.

 

[HTT]

Not necessarily. The game doesn't always improve. Like the stock market you would expect peaks and troughs.

I could see the Cats '09 beating the Tigers '17. You won on great pressure. You didn't have the greatest ever game plan. As much as you would like to think you weren't a hugely skilful side. I would expect a team like the Cats from days gone to beat you as I would the Hawks.

I could argue with you all day about this and we’d just go around in circles. It’s all subjective and the only way to figure it out would be to invent a time machine and play a game, and that ain’t happening. My point is that you can’t actually compare teams between years because it’s a completely different competition every year. New rules, new talent, new tactics. The OP is asking the question why did Richmond win a flag this year when Ross Lyon teams didn’t, and everyone jumps to the “harder competition” line, when it’s actually every bit as hard to win 1 flag now as it was then. It is now more difficult to build a dynasty, and easier to get off the bottom. Hell, I could argue that given the evenness of the year,we had to perform consistently throughout September, when teams like Geelong didn’t due to less dominant teams filling the top 4. But who can compare that?
We won a flag because our defensive pressure was coupled with a willingness to score, and we brought that same pressure on GF day. It helped that Adelaide packed their dacks eventually, but that was caused in part by our pressure.
Like I said last time, we aren’t the greatest team of all time (give all premiers a level playing field and we are a 1/120 shot), but we are the greatest team of 2017, and you really can’t compare us to the greatest team of 2009, or the greatest team of 2018 for that matter.

 

[dean33]

I think the one major difference between the Ross Lyon coached dockers & saints and the 2017 Tigers is this

 

[Power Raid]

I will love the day either freo or the saints break their drought

 

[ManOfClay]

I will love the day either freo or the saints break their drought

Until a few days later and their fans become insufferable to neutrals.

 

[gavaniacono]

I think the Tiges have brought winning graciously back into vogue. What a club. What a team. What a year.

 

[THE THIN MAN]

You can spin doctor all you want about the relative strengths/weaknesses of various grand final teams but only one thing matters, who won!

Ross Lyon 0
Damien Hardwick 1

That is all that matters after 2017 season...

 

[demondavey]

People potting the Tigers bottom 6 have to realise what they are good at and what not. Speed, and discipline in the game + decent skills. They just applied pressure until other teams cracked. So judging them by the Dusty/Dal scale is wrong. They are there to fill a role, that won the premiership.

The Lyon bottom 6, especially at the Saints, were also fairly ordinary. But they didn't have the extra weapon (Speed in Tigers case). So although I wouldn't have too many problems in saying that the Saints bottom 6 were at least as skilled as the Tigers bottom 6. I reckon that misses the point. I would say that the Tigers bottom 6 added more than the Saints because they created pressure all over the ground, both defensive and attacking.

So team vs players as individuals.

Lyon had the defensive game plan but a fairly normal team. the Tigers have a defensive game plan + attack and a team built to serve that game plan.

I'd agree with this.

I think the one thing notably present in the 2017 GF was the pressure and attack from everyone. Not even can be a Martin or Cotchin, but Hardwick managed to assemble a side that could do the key things in pressure games exceptionally well. That is application of pressure. You're right when talking about the extra leg speed, it makes a huge difference in closing the gap on your opponent.

The one thing people are not discussing when they talk about St Kilda in 09 was there horrendous goal kicking. That is what cost them.

 

[demondavey]

Lyon would defend himself by saying but but but but Swans 05!

But how many GFs have been won in the last 120 years by a score under 65?

Lyon doesn't need to defend himself, the players in the St Kilda side in 09 & 10 do for failing to get it done.

 

[King Brown]

I don't need to. I know the answer. So does he.

We're keeping it a secret but if I tell, you must promise not to.

It's amusing that Lyon fans still think he's at work on some master plan.

 

[Heisenberg_]

Until a few days later and their fans become insufferable to neutrals.

Yes we Tigers have made it very easy for neutrals after the dogs last year.

 

[_Mike_]

We've seen the proof in the pudding that you only need to make the finals to be a chance of winning the flag. Once the finals start - season form has little significance. The team that plays the best September footy over the 4 weeks is typically the team that wins the flag.

Lyon's game plan has historically been a dour defensive strategy that couldn't stand up when it counted. The telling stat is that only 1 team in the last 20 odd years that has been in front at 3qtr time, ended up losing the grand final. No guesses needed to which team and year that was.

 

[Nightrain]

I could argue with you all day about this and we’d just go around in circles. It’s all subjective and the only way to figure it out would be to invent a time machine and play a game, and that ain’t happening. My point is that you can’t actually compare teams between years because it’s a completely different competition every year. New rules, new talent, new tactics. The OP is asking the question why did Richmond win a flag this year when Ross Lyon teams didn’t, and everyone jumps to the “harder competition” line, when it’s actually every bit as hard to win 1 flag now as it was then. It is now more difficult to build a dynasty, and easier to get off the bottom. Hell, I could argue that given the evenness of the year,we had to perform consistently throughout September, when teams like Geelong didn’t due to less dominant teams filling the top 4. But who can compare that?
We won a flag because our defensive pressure was coupled with a willingness to score, and we brought that same pressure on GF day. It helped that Adelaide packed their dacks eventually, but that was caused in part by our pressure.
Like I said last time, we aren’t the greatest team of all time (give all premiers a level playing field and we are a 1/120 shot), but we are the greatest team of 2017, and you really can’t compare us to the greatest team of 2009, or the greatest team of 2018 for that matter.

Well I disagree that you can't compare. The main board is littered with threads about which Premiership team is the best one. People do it all the time.

Taking your argument further, then we can't compare players of different eras.

I don't buy your argument that the competition can't have downturns in competitiveness. I don't think it's a given that it gets harder each year. Freo won the minor premiership in 2015 and we got told we were the weakest minor premiers ever.

Anyways, that's my view, you're welcome to yours.

 

[Nightrain]

It's amusing that Lyon fans still think he's at work on some master plan.

Mate, there is no getting anything past you is there?
Went with the standard rhetoric and you're bound to get a load of likes.
You even spelt amusing right. Well done!

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

And we beat you blokes on your home deck this year and we were woeful. Your logic is kindygarden level.

Just exposing kindergarten logic.

 

[Nightrain]

Just exposing kindergarten logic.

The fact I replied and quoted your post means you can't edit your response and hide your stupidity.

 

[King Brown]

Mate, there is no getting anything past you is there?
Went with the standard rhetoric and you're bound to get a load of likes.
You even spelt amusing right. Well done!

You seem to be flailing about in desperation.

At every turn, Lyon fans excuse and deflect why he has failed to win a premiership in 11 years. He's getting into Eade territory now.

 

[#gosaintas]

You seem to be flailing about in desperation.

At every turn, Lyon fans excuse and deflect why he has failed to win a premiership in 11 years. He's getting into Eade territory now.

Don't think you can blame Lyon for our GF losses. Blame rests solely with the players against Geel and some bad luck against the better side in 2010.