Richmond or Geelong?

[Voice of Reason]

Originally posted by phatandphreaky
Just out of interest, what makes John Worsfold a "decent coach"? and why was Ken Judge not a "decent coach"?

Ken Judge was head hunted by WC after a showing a great deal of coaching talent at Hawthorn, where did all this ability go?

Maybe just maybe Messr Judge is being used as a scapegoat?

In order of your 3 questions:

1. Woosha - Natural leader, intelligent man, captain at a young age, passion and enthusiasm, defender not forward pocket, will listen to others, respected by all, loves the club, experience at Carlton as defensive coach. Needs more experience of course and will need time, but he is potentially a decent coach.

Judge - see my other post on this subject. Terrible record, abuses players, takes the credit but none of the blame, pessimistic, not a motivator, lost the players, lost his fellow coaching staff, administrators and fans.

2. WCE board made a terrible mistake. He did not show a great deal of coaching talent at Hawthorn. Period. Ask any Hawthorn fan (except Suzi Olsen and anyone with the surname Judge).

3. No.

 

[Voice of Reason]

Originally posted by phatandphreaky


It wasn't just Round 1, when Geelong played you in Perth you again got thrashed and again looked terrible.

In that game, you were up by 18 points around half time and lost by 70 points to a very ordinary football side.

That sort of thing leaves a lasting impression, especially since Geelong have only had two big wins in the last 4 years, both against WC and both in 2001.

I see similarities between our lists, i think the only difference is in the ruck.
Our ruckman has become a champion yet your ruckman is still a fair way off.
Steven King was an All-Australian at the age of 21, he is vital to our success, its no coincendence that we went from finals contenders to also rans when King did his knee.

If Gardiner can take the next step in 2002 i think the Eagles are capable of winning up to 10 games, BUT if he doesn't become an elite ruckman you may well struggle to avoid the wooden spoon

Yes, I saw the Perth game too and we were terrible. Disgraceful. That's when I thought - this isn't going to get any better under Judge, he's got to go.

Your faith in the ruckman to win a modern game of AFL is I think misplaced.

Your criticism of Gardiner is I think unfair and inaccurate.

As previously mentioned, you've lost 3 key midfielders (Murphy, Hocking and Spriggs) and we haven't.

We've got a new coach and got rid of the worst coach in recent AFL history.

I guess time will tell who's right - I'm sure you'll let me know if it's you!

 

[Fall Out Boy]

Originally posted by Voice of Reason


In order of your 3 questions:

1. Woosha - Natural leader, intelligent man, captain at a young age, passion and enthusiasm, defender not forward pocket, will listen to others, respected by all, loves the club, experience at Carlton as defensive coach. Needs more experience of course and will need time, but he is potentially a decent coach.

That sound remarkably like Bomber Thompson.

 

[Fall Out Boy]

Originally posted by Voice of Reason


Your faith in the ruckman to win a modern game of AFL is I think misplaced.

Look, i have watched Steven King single handedly take Geelong from 11th in 1999 to 5th in 2000 so don't tell me that my OPINION is misplaced.
Steven King is the single most important factor to Geelong chances each week.

Originally posted by Voice of Reason


Your criticism of Gardiner is I think unfair and inaccurate.

When did i criticise Gardiner?

I merely said that he isn't in the class of Steven King.

Bear in mind that at Gardiner's age King was dominating the game, taking Geelong to 5th and winning All-Australian selection

Originally posted by Voice of Reason


As previously mentioned, you've lost 3 key midfielders (Murphy, Hocking and Spriggs) and we haven't.

Hello!!! When was Garry Hocking a "key midfielder"?
Garry Hocking hasn't been a key in our midfield since 1999

David Spriggs??????? When did he become a key midfielder?

Justin Murphy a key midfielder? HAHAHAHAHA, we finished 5th in 2001 without him, we finished 12th in 2002.

Anyone that knows anything about Geelong knows that Murph was a liability.

Originally posted by Voice of Reason


We've got a new coach and got rid of the worst coach in recent AFL history.

Ah, the saviour has arrived... Get real, Woosha is not god, he cannot magically create a Forward line.

Last year the excuse was Ken Judges poor coaching, what will this years excuse be?

The view over here is that the Eagles winning 5 games was the right return given the squad you have, maybe you should be looking at your list rather than the coach?

If the Eagles again win 5 games will it be because John Worsfold is a poor coach?

 

[daddy_4_eyes]

Originally posted by phatandphreaky
Look, i have watched Steven King single handedly take Geelong from 11th in 1999 to 5th in 2000 so don't tell me that my OPINION is misplaced.
Steven King is the single most important factor to Geelong chances each week.

etc etc etc....

And who do Geelong gave in support of King? Only Graham and Burns come to mind, and Graham is getting old whilst Burns has been having off field problems which could very easily effect his onfield performances.

We at least have Cousins, Phil Matera and Wirrpunda to back Gardiner up (I won't include lower quality players in that list, so please only include players of similar quality when answering my above question).

 

[Fall Out Boy]

Originally posted by daddy_4_eyes


And who do Geelong gave in support of King? Only Graham and Burns come to mind, and Graham is getting old whilst Burns has been having off field problems which could very easily effect his onfield performances.

We at least have Cousins, Phil Matera and Wirrpunda to back Gardiner up (I won't include lower quality players in that list, so please only include players of similar quality when answering my above question).

What is the question?

If you are talking quality players then i'll happily compare Ronnie Burns to Phil Matera.

Or Wirrpunda to Riccardi.

Or Graham with any tall forward or backman that you can think of.

 

[Fall Out Boy]

Originally posted by TheRealBuzz
Phatandphreaky, I'm not going to underestimate Geelong.
You've got a great coach, a great captain, great ruckman and two very underrated young defenders in Scarlett and Harley.
Plus Brian Cook is running the place - always a good thing.

But even you must admit that there are quite a few good reasons why people are predicting you to fall down the ladder.

1) The loss of Murphy (who was probably your best player last year) from an already weak midfield.

2) David Spriggs' injury. Very talented young midfielder, and it was a real shame to see him get injured. It again weakens your midfield.

3) The retirement of Hocking.

Who will fill the void these guys leave?
- Tim Clarke is a talent, but he's still very young.
- Riccardi seems to have a lot of injury problems.
- Aaron Lord???

Two things my ignorant friend:

Tim Clarke plays for Hawthorn; and

Justin Murphy was not our best player in 2001, not even close to it.

But otherwise, a fair appraisal of our list

As for the midfield, we have a weak midfield, no doubt, but we have young players coming up, i won't mention them because more than likely you would never have heard of them.

Sure WC have a better midfield than us, but may i ask, who has the better forward line and backline?

 

[TheRealBuzz]

Originally posted by phatandphreaky
Tim Clarke plays for Hawthorn

Whoops, sorry I meant David Clarke. Does that make me ignorant?

Originally posted by phatandphreaky
Justin Murphy was not our best player in 2001, not even close to it.

Who was better? He might not have had the right attitude, but on the field he was very good.

Originally posted by phatandphreaky
Sure WC have a better midfield than us, but may i ask, who has the better forward line and backline?

Forward Line - Geelong (easily).

Backline - Eagles
- Jako is still a quality CHB, and after a full pre-season he'll be back to his 2K form.
- Milli's been training strongly, but I'll admit he is injury prone.
- Darren Glass is a real talent. In a couple of years, he'll be where Scarlett is at the moment. Very similar players.
- Collica is solid.
- Read and Wirra to run it out.

 

[Frodo]

My guess is that all three Vic teams expect to beat us. Carlton most likeley will. That makes the Geelong v Cats game very important for who will stand a reasonable chance to win the group.

So to Round two. The Cats are likeley to go down to the Blues. Eagles v Tigers...line ball.

If the Cats beat the tigers and we beat the tigers too then Geelong will be all out to beat the Eagles on the basis that Richmond may beat the blues and Geelong will top the group. But frankly I doubt that scenario.

More likely is that Geelong will be out of contention along with the eagles and there will be no purpose in Geelong 'putting in'. In that case the Eagles, with home advantage, must be favourites to beat Geelong well. Not that it will matter a lot, it's not as if it's the season real.

 

[eagleskickass]

Originally posted by suzi_olsen


Well I know for one thing the eagles won't get into the final 8. They will finish 16th two lower than last year. They will not win a game this year the eagles.

So i see you are unable to back up your statements, and instead of looking silly byt TRYING to answer them , you offer more un supported statements. Really, suzi, you wonder why you have no cred.
Maybe if you gave some supporting evidence as to WHY this will happen, you might be seen a little better than you are.
While i rarely agree with phatandphreaky, i do like his posts.
At least he backs up his ideas with some evidence to WHY he thinks what he thinks, even if i do believe he is wrong

 

[Richmondfan#1]

Go to the Richmond game because more than likely I will be going .

 

[Fall Out Boy]

Originally posted by TheRealBuzz

Who was better? He might not have had the right attitude, but on the field he was very good.

Ever heard of Brenton Sanderson?????

He was the bloke that represented Australia in the International Rules series.

Or Ben Graham, the guy who lead the marking stats for 20 odd rounds.

Originally posted by TheRealBuzz


Forward Line - Geelong (easily).

Backline - Eagles
- Jako is still a quality CHB, and after a full pre-season he'll be back to his 2K form.
- Milli's been training strongly, but I'll admit he is injury prone.
- Darren Glass is a real talent. In a couple of years, he'll be where Scarlett is at the moment. Very similar players.
- Collica is solid.
- Read and Wirra to run it out.

I think the forward lines are pretty similar but our backline is one of the better ones in the league, far superior to the Eagles in my opinion.

We have Ben Graham holding down CHB (admittedly he plays forward as well), Ben Graham is a star, clearly better than the 2002 Glen Jakovich.

Our second tall defender is Matthew Scarlett, who is one of the best 2 or 3 young defenders in the league.
Gerard Healy is of the opinion that within 3 years Matty will be the premier CHB in the league.

Our third tall defender is Tom Harley, a very underated defender who is, as the third tall, as good as any in the league.

As for the smaller defenders, we have Brenton Sanderson, who won our best and fairest and was recognised as on of the leagues better small/midsized defenders when he was selected to play for Australia.

Next in line we have Brad Sholl.
Brad has represented his state, and still is a very creative defender who always polls well in the Brownlow.


So that leaves:

Graham vs. Jakovich (Even you have to admit that Benny is the better player now)
Scarlett vs. McIntosh (Read Jakovich: One is 30 and injury prone, the other is 21 and on the way up)
Harley vs. Glass (atm that is close but i don't doubt that Glass has more upside)

Sanderson vs. Collica (Look at their records, enough said)
Sholl vs. Read (Different types, Nails is a creative flanker, Read, when fit, is nothing more than a stopper)
Milburn vs. Wirrpunda (Don't doubt Wirrpunda is more talented but he is also injury prone and inconsistent, with Dash we have a tough, honest flanker)


I might be making a mistake but i have totally written off Glen Jakovich on his 2001 form, hell even Mitchell White and Monster Mensch ran rings around him.
Glen Jakovich of 2001 wouldn't beat an ageing Bluey McGrath for a spot on Geelongs bench.

 

[Fall Out Boy]

Originally posted by eagleskickass


While i rarely agree with phatandphreaky, i do like his posts.
At least he backs up his ideas with some evidence to WHY he thinks what he thinks, even if i do believe he is wrong

Why thankyou

Anyway, can someone explain to me who this 'Suzi Olsen' is? I have noticed a fair bit of resentment and bad vibes headed 'her' way.

 

[eagleskickass]

Originally posted by phatandphreaky


Why thankyou

Anyway, can someone explain to me who this 'Suzi Olsen' is? I have noticed a fair bit of resentment and bad vibes headed 'her' way.

believe me, its better that you don't know!

 

[Voice of Reason]

Originally posted by phatandphreaky
Look, i have watched Steven King single handedly take Geelong from 11th in 1999 to 5th in 2000 so don't tell me that my OPINION is misplaced.
Steven King is the single most important factor to Geelong chances each week.
When did i criticise Gardiner?

I merely said that he isn't in the class of Steven King.

Bear in mind that at Gardiner's age King was dominating the game, taking Geelong to 5th and winning All-Australian selection

Hello!!! When was Garry Hocking a "key midfielder"?
Garry Hocking hasn't been a key in our midfield since 1999

David Spriggs??????? When did he become a key midfielder?

Justin Murphy a key midfielder? HAHAHAHAHA, we finished 5th in 2001 without him, we finished 12th in 2002.

Anyone that knows anything about Geelong knows that Murph was a liability.

Ah, the saviour has arrived... Get real, Woosha is not god, he cannot magically create a Forward line.

Last year the excuse was Ken Judges poor coaching, what will this years excuse be?

The view over here is that the Eagles winning 5 games was the right return given the squad you have, maybe you should be looking at your list rather than the coach?

If the Eagles again win 5 games will it be because John Worsfold is a poor coach?

Gee, touchy aren't we?

I think King and Gardiner are about equal. One good season doesn't make a champion. I know you rate King very highly. I rate Gardiner very highly.

Sorry about the midfielder issue. I have attempted to find a post where you mention who will play in one of those spots - rover, ruck rover, centre, wings (ie not back or forward) but I can't find anywhere a hint of who will play for Geelong there. Riccardi I guess.

It's obvious that you don't properly read what I write, as you've chosen to omit the "potential" aspect from Woosha. He's just starting out and if you read this board, you will realise that all the sensible people here will give him time. Incidentally, that includes the board of the Eagles too. If you knew anything about the Eagles, you would accept that we were going backwards under Judge and that a change had to be made.

Now, I'm not going to respond to your Eagles v. Geelong comments any more because I suspect you don't know enough about us and we don't know enough about you. As I said before, time will tell.

The really interesting point in your reply (to me) was the assertion that King as a ruckman "single handedly take Geelong from 11th in 1999 to 5th in 2000" [you then whinged "so don't tell me that my OPINION is misplaced." - I actually said your "faith", hinting at the following point, which you seemed to have missed]: How important is a ruckman to the success of his team in 2002 AFL footy? My suspicion: not very. Essendon have been top or nearly top of AFL for 3 years with a very average ruck (Barnes, Alessio or whoever). Everitt is in many people's view the best ruckman around - St Kilda have done nothing despite that. Hawthorn: an injury-prone Shaun Rehn plus pinchhitters. King - 'nuff said. Gardiner - ditto. Primus is the exception on last year's form, but Port play a good all round game, not just dependent on him, though his leadership qualities are important.

What do you think? See if you can manage to respond without disparaging me.

 

[TheRealBuzz]

Phatandphreaky, you make a very good case regarding your backline.

Just a couple of things though:

- Mark Thompson has said that Ben Graham will play at CHF all year in 2002. While that's a good move for your forwards, it puts extra pressure on Scarlett and Harley.

- Don't write off Jako. He struggled (although I thought he battled manfully) because of an ankle injury he sustained pre-season. The year before he was fantastic and practically beat every CHF in the league.

- Ditto with Milli.

I guess I chose West Coast's defence on the assumption that all these guys will stay fit - which I admit is a tad unrealistic - but one must remain optimistic.

Also I think Graham playing CHF is a good move for your club. And was why I chose your forward line.
He could probably end the year with 30-40 goals, and that's something I'd kill for at the Eagles.

 

[jod23]

P&P......you have your opinions but that doesnt mean they are correct. King had a great year but hasnt done much since. Gardiner IMO is every bit as good King. Your midfield is terrible and as much as you try to brush off the fact that you have lost Hocking, Spriggs and Murphy...it will still make your midfield probably the weakest in the league.

Your forward line is also pretty terrible.....not saying West COasts is any better but we will get far more use of the ball from our superior midfield, obviously depending on who plays for WC against Geelong, i am expecting a win. Your midfield will get belted and our forward line will have too much of the ball despite your good backmen....

You seriously overate Geelong, they are widely acknowledged as a Wooden Spoon favourite. Now in this post i have not said that WC will win the premiership or anything like that so dont come bakc at me saying that i claim WC will be awesome next season. We all know we wont be, but i bet we are better than Geelong.

 

[daddy_4_eyes]

Originally posted by phatandphreaky


What is the question?

If you are talking quality players then i'll happily compare Ronnie Burns to Phil Matera.

Or Wirrpunda to Riccardi.

Or Graham with any tall forward or backman that you can think of.

Duuuhh, read the first sentence of my post!

In terms of goal scoring, Burns is no better than Phil Matera. The difference between the two is that Phil runs down defenders, forces turnovers and even takes on taller players in marking contests, whereas Burns only has eyes for the goals.

Ricardi is nothing compare to Wirrpunda. Even someone as biased as you has to admit Wirrpunda is an incredibly skilled player who, barring injuries, is one of the most exciting players in the AFL.

Fair enough, Graham is better than any defender we have.

 

[Fall Out Boy]

Originally posted by Voice of Reason


I think King and Gardiner are about equal. One good season doesn't make a champion. I know you rate King very highly. I rate Gardiner very highly.

One good season? That one statement shows your complete ignorance of football outside of Western Australia.

Now, tell me what makes Michael Gardiner, Steven King's equal?

What has Michael Gardiner achieved in his career?

I don't doubt Michael Gardiner has the ability to be a dominant ruckman in the league but the difference is that Steven King is already a champion, Gardiner is not.

Steven King is not only a champion footballer, he is a champion leader who is already the clubs vice-captain.

Methinks the fact that you only see Steven King on TV leads you to underate him just a touch.

 

[Fall Out Boy]

Originally posted by daddy_4_eyes


Ricardi is nothing compare to Wirrpunda. Even someone as biased as you has to admit Wirrpunda is an incredibly skilled player who, barring injuries, is one of the most exciting players in the AFL.

What utter crap.

Even in 2001, which was Peter Riccardi's worst season in the AFL (due to a severe injury and the death of his sister), he still got more of the ball then Wirrpunda, sure they play different positions but Wirrpunda NEVER picks up a man, he is a creative midfielder who plays off a flank.

Peter Riccardi has played 199 games and has kicked 197 games in 10 seasons, what has David Wirrpunda done? He's played 65 games, kicked 22 goals in 6 seasons.

Yeah, Wirrpunda is such a superstar isn't he

By Peter Riccardi's 6th season he had played 125 games, kicked 132 goals, played in 14 finals, represented his state 3 times and won a B&F in an extremely strong team.

In his 6th season David Wirrpunda was still an injury prone croc, whose was one of the most inconsistent footballers in the country.

Sure Wirrpunda has the talent but he has a long way to go to achieve anything close to what Peter Riccardi has achieved.
After all, how many footballers have, as midfielders, played over 200 games and kicked more than 200 goals? It takes a special footballer to achieve that.

 

[Fall Out Boy]

Originally posted by TheRealBuzz
Phatandphreaky, you make a very good case regarding your backline.

Just a couple of things though:

- Mark Thompson has said that Ben Graham will play at CHF all year in 2002. While that's a good move for your forwards, it puts extra pressure on Scarlett and Harley.

Yeah fair enough, the only thing i would say is that before the 2001 season Bomber said that Ben would play at CHB, that didn't happen.
I really do expect Ben to play 40% of his footy in the back half.

Originally posted by TheRealBuzz
- Don't write off Jako. He struggled (although I thought he battled manfully) because of an ankle injury he sustained pre-season. The year before he was fantastic and practically beat every CHF in the league.

[/B]

Again, fair enough, i probably shouldn't have written him off but seeing the Jako of 2001 and comparing that with the Jako that dominated the league in the mid 90's is pretty sad stuff.

Originally posted by TheRealBuzz

Also I think Graham playing CHF is a good move for your club. And was why I chose your forward line.
He could probably end the year with 30-40 goals, and that's something I'd kill for at the Eagles. [/B]

I agree 100%, Benny is a better forward then backman, although i think Ben could kick 50 goals if he played a full season at CHF.

In 2001 he played maybe 15 games in the forward line and kicked 33 goals, whilst averaging almost 10 marks week.

IF he plays as the permanent CHF i would expect 50 goals with about 220 marks of a player of Ben's ability.

 

[Fall Out Boy]

Originally posted by daddy_4_eyes


Duuuhh, read the first sentence of my post!

Oh silly me, is that the sentence that read "And who do Geelong gave in support of King? " ?


Such an eloquent, concise and coherent 'question'

 

[Voice of Reason]

Originally posted by phatandphreaky
One good season? That one statement shows your complete ignorance of football outside of Western Australia.

Now, tell me what makes Michael Gardiner, Steven King's equal?

What has Michael Gardiner achieved in his career?

I don't doubt Michael Gardiner has the ability to be a dominant ruckman in the league but the difference is that Steven King is already a champion, Gardiner is not.

Steven King is not only a champion footballer, he is a champion leader who is already the clubs vice-captain.

Methinks the fact that you only see Steven King on TV leads you to underate him just a touch.

As I predicted, you were unable to respond without abuse.

The "one good season" was a direct reference to your comments about King's AA season, not a suggestion that King has been crap for the rest of his career. I'll happily change that to "one great season and some good seasons" in comparison to Gardiner's "several good seasons". IMO they are about equal at the moment, which is all that matters for 2002. In fact, King needs to show that he has overcome injury and continue his career - there's no good in being Clem Michael, a really good ruckman who (sadly) cannot play.

FYI I lived in Melbourne from 1994 to 2001, so your remarks about ignorance and TV are unfounded. They are also typical of a parochial Victorian who knows nothing about WA football.

Your blatant bias and apparent love affair with Steven King and inability to discuss the interesting ruck issue I raised, along with your apparent inability to state a single person who will play midfield for Geelong, means that this conversation is at an end.

 

[daddy_4_eyes]

Originally posted by phatandphreaky


Oh silly me, is that the sentence that read "And who do Geelong gave in support of King? " ?


Such an eloquent, concise and coherent 'question'

Well excuse me your royal highness!! The "gave" in that question was supposed to be a "have". As you may have noticed the "g" is very close to the "h" on the keyboard, so when you type fast mistakes happen.

But yet again you seem to have avoided the question "eloquently"

 

[rfctigerarmy]

I hope the tigers get over the line. To be honast it doesnt mean much if we lose.