Richmond - the time has come

[Super Hans]

We beat Hawks, Cats, North, Eagles. Not surprisingly considering we haven't been near the bottom for a while and our best pick that would be in that age bracket was #9.

Hawks - Hill, Sicily, Hartung and Howe have shown they can play. Plus O'Rourke, O'Brien and Burton have potential. Lovell is a first round pick.

Cats - Caddy, McCarthy, Thurlow, Lang, Gregson, Cockatoo.

Eagles - Barras, Nelson, Lycett, Yeo, Duggan. Their list strength is in the 24-28 zone.

So you probably have North and the Eagles (but their 24-28 year olds are the best in the comp) covered, well done.

Keep your head in the sand.

 

[Super Hans]

Whats funny about Essendon having better kids again?
Might want to explain that one. You clearly have a poor sense of humour

You've got no one half as good as Merrett in that age bracket. Add in Parish, Francis, Langford, Daniher, Fantazia, Lavarde, Tippa and Hartley and it's not even close.

 

[Flags_In_The_Bag]

Lmfao, thats your argument?
Rising Star nominations? Hahahhahhahahaha.

Not argument genius. Was a question. Most years they seem to struggle to see the can give it to by the end of the year. And also if he has played good throughout the year he would have been nominated no matter how much the award is kind of a joke. He has not being in the conversation in any week.

 

[Snooza 100]

You have to recruit players who have the aptitude, skill-set and talent to be developed first.

My point is a good devolopment coach is just as important, if not more than a good recruiter..

 

[Snooza 100]

You've got no one half as good as Merrett in that age bracket. Add in Parish, Francis, Langford, Daniher, Fantazia, Lavarde, Tippa and Hartley and it's not even close.

Il pay Merret, Parish and Daniher. Dont know about the rest..

 

[Flags_In_The_Bag]

Whats funny about Essendon having better kids again?
Might want to explain that one. You clearly have a poor sense of humour

Well for all your spruiking how the Tigers do have good promising young players. You were shocked when somebody mentioned the Bombers have more and also better. The lions have better young players then the Tigers do. In fact all clubs do, and my sense of humor stems from Tigers people claiming they have heaps.

 

[Flags_In_The_Bag]

Il pay Merret, Parish and Daniher. Dont know about the rest..

Oh boy.

 

[Super Hans]

Il pay Merret, Parish and Daniher. Dont know about the rest..

One star, two potential stars and some good role players is better than what Richmond are rolling with.

Sorry if it looks like I'm kicking Richmond while you're down, I just think it's a joke that supporters are talking up the linkes of Menadue and Lennon as the blokes who are gonna be superstars when really they won't even be close to the Bontempelli's, Cripps's and Neale's of the comp.

 

[Snooza 100]

One star, two potential stars and some good role players is better than what Richmond are rolling with.

Sorry if it looks like I'm kicking Richmond while you're down, I just think it's a joke that supporters are talking up the linkes of Menadue and Lennon as the blokes who are gonna be superstars when really they won't even be close to the Bontempelli's, Cripps's and Neale's of the comp.

Thats true. Vlastuin, Rioli, C Ellis and Markov have potential..

 

[Footy Smarts]

One star, two potential stars and some good role players is better than what Richmond are rolling with.

Sorry if it looks like I'm kicking Richmond while you're down, I just think it's a joke that supporters are talking up the linkes of Menadue and Lennon as the blokes who are gonna be superstars when really they won't even be close to the Bontempelli's, Cripps's and Neale's of the comp.

Yep basically Richmond have an under 22 group that looks pretty standard for a top 4 team with a bunch of guys who've shown a bit who might or might not make it but no real stand outs. The problem is the list is miles away from a top 4 list.

It's a bit sad seeing Richmond people (both in the club and outside) talking about it like a bit of improvement will get them there. Get Yarran and Deledio on the park, bring in a Prestia and things might click. But that's a massively best case scenario. What if Rance and Martin didn't have massive career-best years? What if Reiwoldt cops an injury. It's foolish to bank on everything going 100% right because it basically never does. And even if absolutely everything goes right could they make the top 4? I highly doubt it.

 

[YorshireSwan]

My point is a good devolopment coach is just as important, if not more than a good recruiter..

My point is a good recruiter is a prerequisite for a development coach to be good.

 

[YorshireSwan]

So apparently Short has shown nothing?

No, I don't believe he has. Rioli has shown some potential but nothing to get carried away with.

 

[Rimmer]

The OP tossed up some very controversial ideas which I guess could be considered for most clubs who have a down year and are looking for answers. I can't say I agree with his ideas but appreciate that it got us all thinking. For my part I don't see how we are going to be better off without our best 5 or 6 players going forward. We can't chuck out the baby with the bathwater, we need to keep winning games to keep the faithful positive and to give ourselves a chance of being a destination club in this changing world of free agency.

Its been a hard year following on from 3 very good years but in the end like 16 other clubs over that period we are all losers, only Hawthorn has been successful. Last or runner up gets the same amount of cutlery. We only have our week to week wins and losses to hang our hats on and enjoy the season.

A post that started off interesting in the end has a sprinkling of constructive ideas and opinions with mostly arguing between people with fixed views who convince themselves they have all the answers. It got very boring very quickly. We all value our own players more highly than we do players from clubs we don't support, nobody who is not Richmond will be able to judge our players fairly against their own, and we will either overvalue them or grossly undervalue them depending on our moods, welcome to the fickle world of the Richmond supporter.

One I must comment on, it sticks in my throat, trade Martin for 3 NEAFL players in Steel, Marchbank, and whoever it was? you are kidding, those 3 are unproven in regular senior company ... potential is just a word! .... would you trade the Bont for those 3 players if you follow the Dogs? of course not! ... all of them will filter into the rest of the AFL for next to nothing in the next few years as the GWS offloads as it continues to top up with multiple top ten draft choices every year.

Richmond are not getting everything right, you don't have to be a rhodes scholar to realize that but 12 months back with basically the same team after 15, 12, 15 wins in the previous 3 seasons everyone was patting Richmond on the back for their improvement.

UNTOUCHABLES

- Delidio is too Richmond and too good to throw away for a meaningless draft pick in the 20s or 30s, nobody is going to give a first rounder for someone touching 30 with ongoing fitness niggles. He was All Australian in 2015, that's not so far back. He should have the right to choose his own agenda, he could have 5 good years ahead of him, its not his fault we had a down year, hell most of it he wasn't there.

- None of you could argue, Rance is the best defender in the AFL, he will be the first picked in the All Australian side this year, every club wants him just like every club wants Dangerfield. Mid fielders are a dime a dozen, Rance is hands down the most valuable player in the AFL (Buddy is close but still has quiet games) . He is happy at Richmond and I would not trade him for the next 3 number 1 draft picks. His love of Richmond is the reason he kept playing.

- In a field full of gun midfielders Martin is unique, an old style powerhouse who has his own personal move in the 'don't argue'. Its true his manager (who is notorious for doing this), tried to shop him around looking for a modest payrise, he never wanted to leave Richmond, Leon Cameron sent him home when he asked Martin who his mentor was and Martin started telling him how awsome Hardwick was and all the things he did to help him. Martin is more mature now and is getting paid well, we will always look after him too, if anyone wants him they better be ready to recruit the first 2 million a season player.

- Jack Riewoldt, you know, the guy who was the All Australian centre half forward last year? So he was quieter this year, he still kicked nearly 50 goals, he bleeds black and yellow, we love him, we need him, no sale at any price.

- Cotch, possibly soon to be 2012 joint brownlow medalist, he has worked his butt off trying to lift our team this year. Its not his fault we fell 4 games short of the finals. We did win 8 games you know, not 3 like a few clubs did (with apologies to Essendon, they had a good reason)

We need new blood, we need to expand our game plan, we need alternatives when things are going against us, we lost 3 finals in 3 years not on ability but on being out coached each time. Hopefully Hardwick will get some new assistants with new ideas to enhance the coaching styles.

Maybe we can pick up Prestia and add a little bit of depth to our thin midfield, pick 6 is a sweet carrot with maybe a young midfielder added to the mix, whatever works for Gold Coast. Perhaps another Gold Coast player might find the transition to Melbourne easier if he can play with one of his good buddies ^^. We can all dream ...

We do need to make a half dozen changes, we do have some long term players who have not measured up, we probably have nothing we would be willing to trade which is going to get us a pick inside the top 30 so no sense losing sleep over it. We will have to do the best we can and try to encourage Richo to um 'assist' in getting a few father/son prospects on the way.

 

[YorshireSwan]

None of you could argue, Rance is the best defender in the AFL, he will be the first picked in the All Australian side this year, every club wants him just like every club wants Dangerfield. Mid fielders are a dime a dozen, Rance is hands down the most valuable player in the AFL (Buddy is close but still has quiet games)

Good post, you make a lot of interesting points ...
But if Rance is best defender and the fact that Buddy kicked 12 goals on him this season then I suggest Buddy should be the first picked in the AA side this year
Just saying ...

 

[Dr Tigris]

The problem you have got is that you are solely looking at it from a Richmond point of view, all of your 'if only's' don't only conveniently apply to Richmond. Every other club does not stand still, you do realise that Melbourne, Collingwood and St Kilda who are in front of you have their own 'Ellis, Menadue and Rioli's' who if they come on for 2017 they will have a much better team ... therefore Richmond will still be behind them!
Also you are absolutely kidding if you think that this years Sydney team is pretty much the same as the last few years finals making teams ...

Of course I am taking a Richmond POV.

And yes the Swans are pretty much just the 'same as' for the last few years as the tigers are. Very few teams totally change quickly. So it's sort of like saying that you are pretty much the same as 3 years ago. likely to be true for most people. Over 10 years you will have different footy club, almost all of the time.

 

[Dr Tigris]

Gotta hand it to some posters, they don't know too much.

Sydney got pretty much the same team as the last few years eh?

Well in the team that gave the Tiges a jolly good rogering on Saturday we have Marsh rookie debut this year, Papley rookie debut this year, Naismith rookie 2nd game this year, X Richards rookie 2nd game this year, Hewett pick 32 debut this year, Aliir pick 44 debut this year - so yeah, same team although 30% of them are 2016 debutants or played just their 2nd game this year!

Suggest you get out of that tiger suit you wear all the time and actually observe and learn something about other teams!

And the guys that drive your team are .... pretty much the same players as in the last few years.

By exactly your logic the tigers have a very different team than 2015.

I fully acknowledge that the Swans are brilliant at turning their squad over and introducing new players and developing them. The academy helps. But that is Swans thing, so IMHO that just shows the standard the Swans a working to in staying 'top dogs'. All of this love for the Swans does not impact on the fact that the players driving the team are the mature leaders that stay in the club for years. No top team is a brand new bunch of players. I cannot remember this happening, except for perhaps the eagles coming in with almost a state team way back.

if you want to keep arguing a semantic point then fine. But just do the thought experiment of taking the 10 most experienced players out of the team and exchanging them for other players of equal quality. That is a DIFFERENT team. Over 5 years teams will often change dramatically and almost always over 10 years. But the Swans, and the tigers, are pretty much the same team as 3 year ago. What has happened is that the Swans have improved form being genuine contenders to favourites. The Tigers have dropped off and huge cliff. next year a new world, but right now the Swans are benefiting forma brilliantly run strategy of keeping quality whilst bringing through more young quality.

 

[doona]

But the Swans, and the tigers, are pretty much the same team as 3 year ago.

Yeah, no.

10 most experienced players out of the team and exchanging them for other players of equal quality.

Your point here even fails. In 2013 we had O'Keefe, Malceski, J. Bolton, Richards, Mattner, Robers-Thomson, Pyke, Goodes, Mumford, Jetta and then throw in players like Biggs, Everitt, Bird, , lamb, White etc....

That is a lot of experience, no? and that is just off the top of my head.

 

[TiggerMan22]

No, I don't believe he has. Rioli has shown some potential but nothing to get carried away with.

Then you clearly don't watch Richmond.
Short kicked 3 goals in his first game, in that game we could barely score up to half time. At the half we had 3 goals, first gamer Short had 2 of them.
Then gets moved to the backline, averages 18 touches a game there and is entrusted with kick in duties with about 10 career games played.
But yeh sure showed nothing.

Once again if you had watched Richmond near the end of the year you would know that Rioli showed he will be special. That St.Kilda game especially showed that.

 

[TiggerMan22]

Well for all your spruiking how the Tigers do have good promising young players. You were shocked when somebody mentioned the Bombers have more and also better. The lions have better young players then the Tigers do. In fact all clubs do, and my sense of humor stems from Tigers people claiming they have heaps.

Wtf are you on about? That was sarcasm of how obvious the statement was. Of course Essendon have better kids, they had picks #5 and #6 last year.
Jeez you are embarrassing.

 

[Saint]

The problem with Richmond's list is the middle bit. They've got a few kids who could be good (all teams do). They've got a top 5 or 6 who are elite (again, like most teams do).

But their middle 10-15 players are so ordinary that they're essentially worth nothing at the trade table. Vickery might get a second round pick if the tigers are lucky and that's about all they'll get for anyone on their list.

As long as those middle 10 list cloggers are getting games and continuing their not-quite-dropped but not-much-good trajectory, the tigers are doomed to mediocrity.

I don't really see a way out of it for them. They can't afford to trade out a star for some genuinely good draft picks because they were down so long, they can't really afford to go back, even if only for a short time. But without those high picks, they can't get enough good players into the middle tier of players. They'll just turnover the middle-tier with more middle-tier picks.

Drafting has been a huge problem for a long time and it's almost completely hobbled them.

 

[TiggerMan22]

Not argument genius. Was a question. Most years they seem to struggle to see the can give it to by the end of the year. And also if he has played good throughout the year he would have been nominated no matter how much the award is kind of a joke. He has not being in the conversation in any week.

I think the fact that Dunkley got it in round 20 over Markov shows that the nominations are a bit of a joke.
19 dispsosals, 3 inside 50s, 3 clearances beats 26 touches, 670m gained, 12 marks and 10 rebound 50s?

Short kicked 3 goals in his first game, then moved to the backline and averaged about 18 touches. Those stats are pretty in line with other players nominated. .

 

[TiggerMan22]

You've got no one half as good as Merrett in that age bracket. Add in Parish, Francis, Langford, Daniher, Fantazia, Lavarde, Tippa and Hartley and it's not even close.

Yes? And whats funny about that again? You didnt explain the ONLY thing I asked. Not hard, kid.

 

[TiggerMan22]

Hawks - Hill, Sicily, Hartung and Howe have shown they can play. Plus O'Rourke, O'Brien and Burton have potential. Lovell is a first round pick.

Cats - Caddy, McCarthy, Thurlow, Lang, Gregson, Cockatoo.

Eagles - Barras, Nelson, Lycett, Yeo, Duggan. Their list strength is in the 24-28 zone.

So you probably have North and the Eagles (but their 24-28 year olds are the best in the comp) covered, well done.

Keep your head in the sand.

Bellis, Vlaustin, Rioli, Lennon, Mcintosh, Cellis, Short, Markov, Menadue.

Beats Hawks and Cats.
I can name names too.

 

[Super Hans]

Keep your head in the sand. Waste of time talking to someone like you.

 

[YorshireSwan]

Of course I am taking a Richmond POV.

And yes the Swans are pretty much just the 'same as' for the last few years as the tigers are. Very few teams totally change quickly. So it's sort of like saying that you are pretty much the same as 3 years ago. likely to be true for most people. Over 10 years you will have different footy club, almost all of the time.

Well I am sorry but that is a ridiculous POV if you do not consider what other other clubs will do and how they will improve, its exactly the reason why 'the best list' your coach has ever coached has stagnated and gone backwards.

Mate the Swans best 22 today has evolved immensely and is significantly different to what it has been over even just the last 3 seasons, here is just a snippet of the proof from the final teams that took the field in 2015, 2014 and 2013 to the one that heads into finals today...

2016 FIRST FINAL TEAM (LIKELY)

B Dane Rampe, Aliir Aliir, Nick Smith

HB Callum Mills, Heath Grundy, Jarrad McVeigh

C Jake Lloyd, Josh P. Kennedy, Dan Hannebery

HF Gary Rohan, Lance Franklin, Luke Parker

F Xavier Richards, Kurt Tippett, Isaac Heeney

FL Sam Naismith, Tom Mitchell, Kieren Jack

IC Harrison Marsh, Ben McGlynn, George Hewett, Tom Papley


2015 PRELIMINARY FINAL TEAM

B Dane Rampe, Ted Richards, Nick Smith

HB Rhyce Shaw, Heath Grundy, Jarrad McVeigh

C Lewis Jetta, Tom Mitchell, Gary Rohan

HF Dean Towers, Adam Goodes, Harry Cunningham

F Ben McGlynn, Kurt Tippett, Isaac Heeney

FOL Mike Pyke, Josh P. Kennedy, Dan Hannebery

I/C James Rose, Jeremy Laidler, Jake Lloyd, Zak Jones (sub)

CHANGES

In: Alir Alir, Callum Mills, Lance Franklin, Luke Parker, Xavier Richards, Sam Naismith, Harrison Marsh, George Hewitt, Tom Papley

Out: Ted Richards, Rhyce Shaw, Lewis Jetta, Dean Towners, Adam Goodes, Harry Cunningham, Mike Pyke, James Rose, Jeremy Laidler, Zac Jones


2014 GRAND FINAL TEAM

B Nick Smith, Ted Richards, Nick Malceski

HB Gary Rohan, Heath Grundy, Dane Rampe

C Kieren Jack, Josh Kennedy, Ben McGlynn

HF Dan Hannebery, Lance Franklin, Harry Cunningham

F Adam Goodes, Kurt Tippett, Sam Reid

FL Mike Pyke, Luke Parker, Jarrad McVeigh

IC Rhyce Shaw, Lewis Jetta, Jake Lloyd, Craig Bird (Sub)

CHANGES

In: Alir Alir, Callum Mills, Isaac Heeney, Xavier Richards, Sam Naismith, Tom Mitchell, Harrison Marsh, George Hewitt, Tom Papley

Out: Ted Richards, Nick Malceski, Harry Cunningham, Adam Goodes, Sam Reid, Mike Pyke, Rhyce Shaw, Lewis Jetta, Craig Bird


2013 PRELIMINARY FINAL TEAM

B Dane Rampe, Ted Richards, Shane Biggs

HB Jarrad McVeigh, Heath Grundy, Nick Smith

C Ben McGlynn, Kieren Jack, Nick Malceski

HF Daniel Hannebery, Jude Bolton, Lewis Jetta

F Luke Parker, Mike Pyke, Jesse White

FL Shane Mumford, Josh Kennedy, Ryan O'Keefe

IC Harry Cunningham, Andrejs Everitt, Craig Bird, Gary Rohan (Sub)

CHANGES

In: Alir Alir, Callum Mills, Jake Lloyd, Lance Franklin, Xavier Richards, Kurt Tippett, Isaac Heeney, Sam Naismith, Tom Mitchell, Harrison Marsh, George Hewitt, Tom Papley

Out: Ted Richards, Shane Biggs, Nick Malceski, Jude Bolton, Lewis Jetta, Mike Pyke, Harry Cunningham, Craig Bird, Shane Mumford, Ryan O’Keefe, Andrejs Everitt, Jesse White

Whilst admittedly injuries play their part on a year to year basis, that's still a 12/22 or a 55% change to the best 22 in a space of 3 years whilst making finals every year and winning this years minor premiership. Interestingly, 7/12 changes since 2013 (Biggs, Malceski, Jetta, Bird, Mumford, Everitt & White) are still playing today at other AFL clubs, with the exception of Franklin and Tippett all other inclusions have been drafted and developed by the Swans.