Autopsy Richmond's backline ranked #16 in the AFL

[Grockadoc]

He spent most of the year in defence?

I'd say about 50/50. First half of the season he played as a forward.

 

[Grrr]

No Grimes is not he rarely plays in the role. Most people acknowledge this. Houli is unaccountable and is never given a job on a dangerous small fwd and becomes a complete liability at times because of it.
Vlastuin is a medium who plays an interceot role similar to Wood. The difference is Wood is extremely good in the air against all types nice type of player to have.
Sorry but i disagree Grimes is a tall who mainly plays on smalls. He has Rarely played on taller opponents lately how hard is it to understand.
Birchall at Hawthorn is 193cm and he is not a third tall he is just a tall hbf.
Besides people on here are telling me blokes like Stringer, Crameri Morris Cordy are not talls why would i or anyone then classify Grimes as one.

Only if Grimes plays on and defends talls does it mean he plays tall.And every now and then he does but he mostly plays on smalls.



so others see this as well.
So if Grimes is actually playing on a sml/med , which is most of the time logic says there is a need to play a third tall type or do we ask blokes like Batchelor to punch out of their division or Vlastuin or Markov.. We have seen how that can work out.
As it is we get very little run and rebound out of Grimes regardless of which role he performs.



WTF As i had stated Easton Wood is a medium sized player who is exceptional for his height 187cm in the air. I will add he is superb at reading the ball in the air leaving his man to take an intercept mark or make a spoil. He also gives them some run and rebound.

Even when crippled by injuries going into the g/f the dogs played three tall defenders in Roberts 196cm, Hamling 194cm, and Morris 190cm having the luxury of leaving wood to do what he does.At times Wood did man up on a tall covering his teammates.

Do you actually understand the topic and what is being said.
We dont have an Easton Wood a medium capable of playing tall and if Grimes which is the norm plays sml/med we are literally going into games a tall short.

Just going to finish because as usual the debate will just go around in circles, We clearly disagree but i am going to ask what is wrong with playing a third tall and Grimes especially if Grimes is mostly playing and performing in the smaller role.He is actually imo the best performed defender we have by some margin against opposition sml/med fwds.Which in its own way shows our lack of quality small defenders.

Anyway over to you i have nothing more to add on this subject i think people know where i stand.

Unfortunately Grimes who started life as a tall playing on medium talls has been turned into a medium small. That's not my or Mopsy's definition/opinion. In the Elim. Final against Roos, Grimes took Lindsay Thomas and Batchelor took Waite. And we all know how that went!! Grimes was perfect for Waite who dominated Batch, (not his fault). But it does add weight to Mopsy's argument, and pisses me off to this day.

 

[Tango67]

Grimes is 193cm and that my friend is a tall, where and how he plays is indifferent just because he can play on smalls

you mention wood who is 186 and that is not a tall although he is good in the air

my argument is Grimes offers no rebound or offence so there for you cannot afford to play him purely as a small and add another tall in the back half as I believe you need 3 stay at home defenders and 3 offensive runners who can defend.

the HBF run and create plus another which is usually your small defender leaving you 3 others.

if Garthwaite was to come into the back 6 he would need to take Astbury spot but he is not strong enough yet or Grimes spot which may happen down the track

you cannot use CM and height in an argument about drafting talls or the lack of them and then disregard cm and height to suit your case....

in a perfect world you would have 3 talls and 3 athletic mediums but not everyone has that luxury.

 

[Grockadoc]

my argument is Grimes offers no rebound or offence so there for you cannot afford to play him purely as a small and add another tall in the back half as I believe you need 3 stay at home defenders and 3 offensive runners who can defend.

That argument is false. Grimes has often been seen rebounding out of half back, particularly when he hasn't been made to be a lockdown defender. One of the many reasons why Morris is a key to the backline, as it frees up Grimes to give us drive as well as Houli, McIntosh, Markov and Vlastuin.

 

[Tango67]

the stats don't support this
go and check his rebound 50s hardly gets outside of 50 unless he is rebounding across field?

 

[Grockadoc]

the stats don't support this
go and check his rebound 50s hardly gets outside of 50 unless he is rebounding across field?

Stats can be misleading. Rebound 50's only count if the player has the ball inside defensive 50 and moves it out. Grimes often gets the ball on the flanks, so they won't count.

 

[Tango67]

you are kidding right?

if he gets it outside 50 he would have some inside 50s and goal assists right- none

infact he has less possesions, less outside 50 less inside 50s less score assists, less any offensive stat than any other defender including stay at home dinosaur Astbury.

Grimes as good as he is is a punch it spoil it sour defender who offers little run and offence which is fine provided others do it.

 

[Madtiger2006]

Grimes is a fine player. Our starting backline is good enough. Elton should be able to fill a role when needed.

 

[Tango67]

Grimes is a fine player. Our starting backline is good enough. Elton should be able to fill a role when needed.

agreed, Grimes is a fine defender and a good number 3 stay at home defender which is why he shouldn't be locked into a small defender role robbing the back 6 of another avenue for attack.

 

[Grrr]

you are kidding right?

if he gets it outside 50 he would have some inside 50s and goal assists right- none

infact he has less possesions, less outside 50 less inside 50s less score assists, less any offensive stat than any other defender including stay at home dinosaur Astbury.

Grimes as good as he is is a punch it spoil it sour defender who offers little run and offence which is fine provided others do it.

The only way our back line will get better is if they start to attack more. Astbury stated that as his primary goal preseason, and given his knee history I think we should cut him some slack about his mobility. But Grimes needs to start attacking more. He is a similar player size/run wise to Machie from Geelong, but offers little offensively comparatively. Markov might have to take on this roll, seems well suited to it. But until all back 6 start thinking more offensively we will continue to be static and slow coming out of our back line, which means trouble in today's footy.

 

[Grockadoc]

you are kidding right?

if he gets it outside 50 he would have some inside 50s and goal assists right- none

infact he has less possesions, less outside 50 less inside 50s less score assists, less any offensive stat than any other defender including stay at home dinosaur Astbury.

Grimes as good as he is is a punch it spoil it sour defender who offers little run and offence which is fine provided others do it.

Grimes offers us rebound when he doesn't have to worry about playing as a lockdown defender. He averages more possessions, rebounds etc when either Batchelor or Morris are playing in the side as it means he is free to roam. Without those two in the side, he doesn't have the freedom to do so.

He doesn't do it regularly enough (No fault of his own), but to say he doesn't do it is wrong.

 

[Madtiger2006]

No to Morris. Runs into trouble and turns it over too much.

 

[Lsta062]

The only way our back line will get better is if they start to attack more. Astbury stated that as his primary goal preseason, and given his knee history I think we should cut him some slack about his mobility. But Grimes needs to start attacking more. He is a similar player size/run wise to Machie from Geelong, but offers little offensively comparatively. Markov might have to take on this roll, seems well suited to it. But until all back 6 start thinking more offensively we will continue to be static and slow coming out of our back line, which means trouble in today's footy.

Yep. Much of our slow ball momevent begins in the backline and has a roll-on effect to the other parts of the ground.

By the time the ball gets out of our defence, the opposition is set how they want to be set, pushing those that are in the midfield to continue with the small ball movement. The solution to this probably lies more with the coaching than the defenders, so they'll have to address this.

 

[Tango67]

Grimes offers us rebound when he doesn't have to worry about playing as a lockdown defender. He averages more possessions, rebounds etc when either Batchelor or Morris are playing in the side as it means he is free to roam. Without those two in the side, he doesn't have the freedom to do so.

He doesn't do it regularly enough (No fault of his own), but to say he doesn't do it is wrong.

The stats don't support this, I'd consider Astbury and Rance as taking the 2 key forwards and both offer more offence than Grimes and Short took on the smallest forward.

As I said earlier Grimes has the lowest offensive stats from all our defenders that play so I cannot see how you can argue that he is a rebounding defender unless he is rebounding and no one is giving him the ball.

 

[Grockadoc]

The stats don't support this, I'd consider Astbury and Rance as taking the 2 key forwards and both offer more offence than Grimes and Short took on the smallest forward.

As I said earlier Grimes has the lowest offensive stats from all our defenders that play so I cannot see how you can argue that he is a rebounding defender unless he is rebounding and no one is giving him the ball.

I never said he was a rebounder. I said he does it, but rarely. He is a defender who plays predominantly lockdown, but can (and has) offer drive IF there is another small/medium defender who plays the lockdown role.

Grimes' ability to rebound is no longer as important as it was last season whilst Houli was out (he was pretty good during this period), as Markov, Short and Houli ahve taken over.

Your initial assumption of Grimes was that he never offers rebound or offence. That was wrong. The need for him to do so has lessened as we have introduced quicker types into the lineup.

 

[Tango67]

I never said he was a rebounder. I said he does it, but rarely. He is a defender who plays predominantly lockdown, but can (and has) offer drive IF there is another small/medium defender who plays the lockdown role.

Grimes' ability to rebound is no longer as important as it was last season whilst Houli was out (he was pretty good during this period), as Markov, Short and Houli ahve taken over.

Your initial assumption of Grimes was that he never offers rebound or offence. That was wrong. The need for him to do so has lessened as we have introduced quicker types into the lineup.

You said Grimes is often seen rebounding out of defence,
You said he offers us rebound

Sorry I mistook that as you referring to him as a rebounding defender seeing as he is a defender.

Anyway let's agree to disagree, I feel his best position is a lock down defender as I would prefer others to do the rebounding, and adding Morris to free up Grimes is not the best solution.

As much as I like Grimes I think he needs to get more offensive without losing his defensive strengths or else he will lose his spot to Garthwaite who I believe will eventually be our 2nd best defender after Rance.

Initially Garthwaite may not be strong enough to move out Astbury so it will be Grimes that makes way.

 

[Goldust]

Grimes is far and away our second best defender behind one A. Rance.
There I said it!

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Grimes is far and away our second best defender behind one A. Rance.
There I said it!

flowersniffing fanboi

 

[Tango67]

Grimes is far and away our second best defender behind one A. Rance.
There I said it!

That's why he gets matched up on all the big forwards....

He is limited and is either 3rd tall or he gets stronger, I agree he is a good defender but he is not strong enough for gorilla forwards, maybe an option in the future is Garthwaite takes the Gorillas and Rance plays loose

Only time will tell but as a stopper only he needs to be bigger or get more offence to his game

 

[Grockadoc]

That's why he gets matched up on all the big forwards....

He is limited and is either 3rd tall or he gets stronger, I agree he is a good defender but he is not strong enough for gorilla forwards, maybe an option in the future is Garthwaite takes the Gorillas and Rance plays loose

Only time will tell but as a stopper only he needs to be bigger or get more offence to his game

He doesn't need to take a gorilla forward. How many teams play 3 genuine gorillas? At most, they play 2. Most teams only play 1 and have their second and third talls (if they play one) as mobile talls. Very rare to have 2 gorillas in a forward line.

 

[Goldust]

flowersniffing fanboi

As my ex-Mrs said ... 'you've changed'!
I have!

 

[Tango67]

He doesn't need to take a gorilla forward. How many teams play 3 genuine gorillas? At most, they play 2. Most teams only play 1 and have their second and third talls (if they play one) as mobile talls. Very rare to have 2 gorillas in a forward line.

you just don't get it do you...

Grimes only needs to play on gorilla forwards if he is to replace Astbury to alliw Garthright into the same side otherwise he is 3rd tall and I am suggesting Garthwaite in time will be better than both and depending on how quickly Garth develops physically will determine whether it's Crimes or Astbury that makes way

With regards to most teams playing only 1 gorilla forward at a time let me ask you this... how many games have we left Astbury and or Rance out if our side because if onlt 1 large opposition forward..... None we will always play both therefore there is always a need for 3 talking players.

this whole discussion was around playing all of Rance, Astbury, Grimes and Garthwaite in the same side and I say it's not balanced as the ideal is 3 talls but one of them needs to be a mobile runner and unless we are prepared to take the best defender in Rance away from defending it won't work.

 

[Grockadoc]

you just don't get it do you...

Grimes only needs to play on gorilla forwards if he is to replace Astbury to alliw Garthright into the same side otherwise he is 3rd tall and I am suggesting Garthwaite in time will be better than both and depending on how quickly Garth develops physically will determine whether it's Crimes or Astbury that makes way

With regards to most teams playing only 1 gorilla forward at a time let me ask you this... how many games have we left Astbury and or Rance out if our side because if onlt 1 large opposition forward..... None we will always play both therefore there is always a need for 3 talking players.

this whole discussion was around playing all of Rance, Astbury, Grimes and Garthwaite in the same side and I say it's not balanced as the ideal is 3 talls but one of them needs to be a mobile runner and unless we are prepared to take the best defender in Rance away from defending it won't work.

I'm just saying, if you don;t think Grimes can play as a rebounder, go back and check his 2012 season out. Only played the 9 games before he got injured, but he was in ripping form playing as hybrid lockdown/rebound defender.

 

[tigerz18]

Rance by himself makes RFC in the top 3 defence, but the rest of the backline takes away from that. We should be around 10th.

But we still havent replaced Chaplin. We lost Yaz without getting game time into him. Astbury is good, but not a great, kpd. But our running defenders are pretty decent, Houli and Markov are very good rebounding defenders. Vlas is not a back pocket and should be moved up field, if Morris was fit, he'd need to go back there. Short will be the starting bp this year. Grimes is a decent 3rd tall, but yep, after that we are running a little thin.

 

[Grrr]

Rance by himself makes RFC in the top 3 defence, but the rest of the backline takes away from that. We should be around 10th.

But we still havent replaced Chaplin. We lost Yaz without getting game time into him. Astbury is good, but not a great, kpd. But our running defenders are pretty decent, Houli and Markov are very good rebounding defenders. Vlas is not a back pocket and should be moved up field, if Morris was fit, he'd need to go back there. Short will be the starting bp this year. Grimes is a decent 3rd tall, but yep, after that we are running a little thin.

Not sure about the Chaplin replacement. Astbury is far better at stopping his man one on one that Chaplin. Chaplin could organise a back line and used his game sense well and was pretty creative for a big bloke, but the fact that he wasn't much of a defender sort of negated all that. Rance does all of that, and the rest of the back line needs to cover for each other better. Don't think we miss Chaplin.