Roast Rigged flags: how the VFL cooked the books

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sobrave

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 15, 2015
20,741
43,565
42° south
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
From 1992 to 2006 "interstate" clubs won 10 out of 15 flags, including 6 in a row from 2001-2006.

Clearly this was unacceptable and something had to give to tilt the balance back. Since then almost every flag has had some form of leg up from the VFL in terms of advantage.

Geelong "Dynasty" - Dank. Ablett Jnr and Tom Hawkins for free under father son rules that blatantly favoured Victoria.

Hawthorn "Dynasty" - Luke Hodge and Jarryd Roughead as priority picks. They then changed the rules on priority picks making them much harder to come by. Compromised drafts due to expansion clubs made it impossible to catch up.

Western Bulldogs 2016 - umpiring interference. The bye which severely diminished any advantage for being top 4.

Richmond 2017 - Undeserved home ground advantage against a higher ranked team. Cotchin takes out Shiel with a head high bump, concussing him and turning the prelim. Not suspended.

Melbourne - So bad for so long that the AFL, the administrators of the game, took over and stabilised the club, even appointing their own coach and succession planning. Training wheels premiership.

The only legit flags were Collingwood in 2010 and maybe the last 2 Richmond ones.
 
Last edited:

Power Raid

TheBrownDog
Oct 15, 2004
73,219
63,843
West Perth
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
From 1992 to 2006 "interstate" clubs won 10 out of 15 flags, including 6 in a row from 2001-2006.

Clearly this was unacceptable and something had to give to tilt the balance back. Since then almost every flag has had some form of leg up from the VFL in terms of advantage.

Geelong "Dynasty" - Dank. Ablett Jnr and Tom Hawkins for free under father son rules that blatantly favoured Victoria.

Hawthorn "Dynasty" - Luke Hodge and Jarryd Roughead as priority picks. They then changed the rules on priority picks making them much harder to come by. Compromised drafts due to expansion clubs made it impossible to catch up.

Western Bulldogs 2016 - umpiring interference. The bye which severely diminished any advantage for being top 4.

Richmond 2017 - Undeserved home ground advantage against a higher ranked team. Cotchin takes out Shiel with a head high bump, concussing him and turning the prelim. Not suspended.

Melbourne - So bad for so long that the AFL, the administrators of the game, took over and stabilised the club, even appointing their own coach and succession planning. Training wheels premiership.

The only legit flags were Collingwood in 2010 and maybe the last 2 Richmond ones.
On a similar theme, I hope the AFL get behind the Gold Coast as they have done with Melbourne.

I know it goes against the grain of an "independent league" but the survival of the club and the endeavour to have a true national competition and even a code that is accepted nationally is at stake.

Without the dilution of power of the VFL, we will see exactly what you highlight continue. The Gold Coast, Tassie, Canberra and perhaps even Darwin (indoor a/C stadium) is needed. Hopefully (but sadly) a couple of Melbourne clubs merge or relocate (Kangaroos, Saints).
 

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TeeKray

Moderator
Mar 1, 2014
15,446
83,754
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On a slightly separate note, I'm developing a new theory on Victorian dominance.

I think the Victorian clubs just have soul and the non Victorian clubs are just soulless franchises. You can really feel the spirit and history and tradition pumping through the Victorian clubs, especially at this time of year. It comes through as passion and drive that just doesn't exist with the non Victorian teams.

We are included in this soulless franchise basket too. People think it's a small deal that the VFL deny us our history, deny us our right to wear our guernsey, etc. But I'm starting to think it puts more of a wedge between our present and our past than first thought. Symbolism can be important. Wearing a guernsey established in 2010 and constantly being told you're a new franchise with 1 premiership eventually takes its toll on mindset.

The only non Victorian clubs that ever salute are the big, powerful two - Sydney and West Coast. And even they can only nab the odd singular flag, unlike Victorian teams that win multiple flags. The other 6 non Victorian franchises suck, even though most of them do get deep in seasons, they just can't convert. And I think it's because they lack soul.
 

backtozero

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 26, 2020
6,734
15,311
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
On a slightly separate note, I'm developing a new theory on Victorian dominance.

I think the Victorian clubs just have soul and the non Victorian clubs are just soulless franchises. You can really feel the spirit and history and tradition pumping through the Victorian clubs, especially at this time of year. It comes through as passion and drive that just doesn't exist with the non Victorian teams.

We are included in this soulless franchise basket too. People think it's a small deal that the VFL deny us our history, deny us our right to wear our guernsey, etc. But I'm starting to think it puts more of a wedge between our present and our past than first thought. Symbolism can be important. Wearing a guernsey established in 2010 and constantly being told you're a new franchise with 1 premiership eventually takes its toll on mindset.

The only non Victorian clubs that ever salute are the big, powerful two - Sydney and West Coast. And even they can only nab the odd singular flag, unlike Victorian teams that win multiple flags. The other 6 non Victorian franchises suck, even though most of them do get deep in seasons, they just can't convert. And I think it's because they lack soul.
Every single player is aware of the club's history and past success. There's no reason to believe our failures have been anything other than personnel related.

All your post just did was reinforce the idea that we're separated from our past.

Whatever you're trying to say about spirit, history and tradition falls apart when you consider just how long Melbourne, Geelong, Richmond, the Dogs etc. went without any success at all.

Get the right people on board and things fall into place.
 

VineValerian

Norm Smith Medallist
Mar 10, 2014
5,958
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Every single player is aware of the club's history and past success. There's no reason to believe our failures have been anything other than personnel related.

All your post just did was reinforce the idea that we're separated from our past.

Whatever you're trying to say about spirit, history and tradition falls apart when you consider just how long Melbourne, Geelong, Richmond, the Dogs etc. went without any success at all.

Get the right people on board and things fall into place.
When are we going to get the right people in place?
Oh wait.
There's Ken and Kochie - that's all we need.
 

simba_

ask me how to use this space for advertising
Jun 2, 2009
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there is a big thread on some random subforum about how obviously fixed the Dogs - Swans Granny was, anyone who watched the game is aware of the oddities of that day.


On a slightly separate note, I'm developing a new theory on Victorian dominance.

I think the Victorian clubs just have soul and the non Victorian clubs are just soulless franchises. You can really feel the spirit and history and tradition pumping through the Victorian clubs, especially at this time of year. It comes through as passion and drive that just doesn't exist with the non Victorian teams.

We are included in this soulless franchise basket too. People think it's a small deal that the VFL deny us our history, deny us our right to wear our guernsey, etc. But I'm starting to think it puts more of a wedge between our present and our past than first thought. Symbolism can be important. Wearing a guernsey established in 2010 and constantly being told you're a new franchise with 1 premiership eventually takes its toll on mindset.

The only non Victorian clubs that ever salute are the big, powerful two - Sydney and West Coast. And even they can only nab the odd singular flag, unlike Victorian teams that win multiple flags. The other 6 non Victorian franchises suck, even though most of them do get deep in seasons, they just can't convert. And I think it's because they lack soul.
none of those Vic franchises have any soul. Essendon have been destroyed. Hawthorn masqueraded as 'The Family Franchise Club' but its literally over now. Collingwood are a hollow shell with a black soul, they don't fill a quarter of their ground. St. Kilda, Carlton, North are jokes. Geelong are at least away from that bubble, but were Dank-ified. The Dogs and Demons got flags recently, woopy, they've been less than nothing entities for my entire life!
 

1954

Norm Smith Medallist
Mar 1, 2014
7,274
12,277
AFL Club
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It would have been interesting to see if the umps would have been as impartial in last night's game if the Dee's opponent was a non Vic club, I suspect that wouldn't have been the case.

As for the dogs `win' over the swans in 2016, that was a bigger heist than Ronnie Bigg's infamous Great Train Robbery!
 

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ibd77

Premiership Player
Apr 2, 2014
3,116
4,642
Adelaide, South Australia
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Everyone is bitter after two missed opportunities. The sadness now comes into the realisation that next season will likely result is a bust unless we can recruit well and develop players to cover our weaknesses. With Voss and Schofield gone, can this be achieved?

Next year we are going to have a tough draw as we will face off with the stronger teams twice and play against good teams away from home. Ken's poor record against other contending teams will be on full display.
 

drcollossimo

Premiership Player
Jun 22, 2008
4,589
5,571
Adelaide
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Yea look I get it but we can’t really post stuff like this while we keep the turnip in charge and constantly punch ourselves in the face

We r cooked watch Voss try and take Butters and Schoey George

Our best chance now is to load up with as many young players as we can to help rebuild once we break the cult of Ken
 

sobrave

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 15, 2015
20,741
43,565
42° south
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Yea look I get it but we can’t really post stuff like this while we keep the turnip in charge and constantly punch ourselves in the face

We r cooked watch Voss try and take Butters and Schoey George

Our best chance now is to load up with as many young players as we can to help rebuild once we break the cult of Ken
We have the second or third worst draft hand by points. We have pick 16 and then pick 60. It's flag or bust for old Kenneth
 

EskimoPAFC

Norm Smith Medallist
Dec 17, 2017
8,783
21,167
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Decent amount of the reason for recent VFL flags is on us, and to a lesser extent the Lions.

We have been had everything we need, and had our last final for the last 2 years on home soil. We have blown both opportunities.

We also totally burned 5 opportunities between 2015 and 2019 with insanely stupid selection and process.
 

powerrrrrrrrrrrr

Premiership Player
Feb 17, 2010
3,627
6,623
adelaide
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Honestly, we need to stop playing the victim card just because we aren’t good enough to win.

We’ve had just as much of a chance the last 10 years with 3 prelim losses that we could have snagged a flag or two but we blew it.

If us and the other clubs were good enough we’d win. Simple and I think we need to stop buying into the whole Victorian conspiracy as it just provides a cheap get out of jail excuse for our own letdowns.
 

PrisonBars4life

Team Captain
May 10, 2021
536
692
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Some of it is true, especially the father son stuff. However, the bigger issue is SA hasn't produced any serious talent for years and that is required for getting a leg up. How many home grown free agents have we got, how many trades for unders, and people coming back to be close to their family not for money. The simple fact of the matter is we have been painfully close twice in the past 7-8 years, plus reasonably close a third time. 1-2 players really could have completely changed our history. We don't get players like Ben Brown for nothing, we don't get super star free agents or players that have filled their pockets at an expansion club to come home for success and less money. The simple fact is there hasn't been any to get. We are sitting with our dick in our hand knowing that we are close but 1-2 players short of a premiership side with the money to go and get them, but we can't pry anyone loose.

You have a look at when Adelaide/ Port won their flags. That was during a period SA was arguably the best state. SA was seriously strong throughout the 80s and 90s. Adelaide put together a strong SA based squad, lured a guy like Jarman home who is probably the difference between them winning 2 vs 0 flags. We brought home alot of former Magpies in Picket, Wakelin, Wanganeen, and a zone selection in Tredrea is actually valuable because SA/ port actually produced good players. Who are our freebies in the Hinkley era? Lycett, Ebert, Motlop, Monfries. They're not even in the same ball park as the first list of names. So we basically have to nail everything, get literally everything right to win a flag. Not have 1.1 mil on the bench in Rockliff/ Hammer. Not give up a player like Fritsch for Watts. Melbourne can afford to have butchered a few drafts because they have continued to get opportunities to add to their list. The 2009 draft especially is still hanging over our heads because we don't have that many top 10-15 pick players in our team.

The unfortunate reality is we have to give up on winning a flag with the current squad. If we hang around 3rd-6th for the next couple of years that is a death sentence. I think we really have to be brutal this time and start wiping people out. Motlop gone, Clurey gone, Gray getting dropped if he plays 2 poor games in a row. Boak can stay as long as he is a top 20 player in the league knocking on the door of AA, but the moment he's not he's out. We can't accept being close, because we got so much right with a core of players in the 18-21 age group and we need to give them space to succeed on their own even if it means dropping back to 8-10 again to do it. Give them more talented young players to play around and build to the next flag.
 

EskimoPAFC

Norm Smith Medallist
Dec 17, 2017
8,783
21,167
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
It's not about who won, it's about how. This competition is so unbalanced it's ridiculous.
There are elements of your post that I agree with. The Cats 07, 09 and 11 wins are definitely tarnished, at least until someone mans up and actually does a commission in to looking at what went on there with the two drug cheats Bomber and Dank being at the club. The dogs in 2016 pretty much everyone agrees has the biggest asterisk in it (since the 1998 joke flag at least).

The rest, meh...

We had our chances this year, failed to take them. Brisbane and us both had chances last year, failed. GWS failed against the Tiges. Cows absolutely sh*t the bed on GF day despite being the better side all year. You can't really argue the picks have been the reason as GWS and GC have had the best opportunities via picks of any club in the AFL.

Wet Toast and Sydney do absolutely fine. If the 2016 flag was umpired fairly then the Swans would be on 3/21 flags post-2000 and the Eagles on 2/21. Even Brisbane who have blown it lately are on 3/21.

If us and Brisbane didn't blow our shots due to our own failures, then we would sit on ~3 too and the lions on ~4, making the total insterstate flags 12/21. This would be batting well above what would be expected given there are absolute joke clubs in this group like our toxic little brother or the SUNS.
 

Butters and Pepper

Senior List
Sep 18, 2020
259
398
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
From 1992 to 2006 "interstate" clubs won 10 out of 15 flags, including 6 in a row from 2001-2006.

Clearly this was unacceptable and something had to give to tilt the balance back. Since then almost every flag has had some form of leg up from the VFL in terms of advantage.

Geelong "Dynasty" - Dank. Ablett Jnr and Tom Hawkins for free under father son rules that blatantly favoured Victoria.

Hawthorn "Dynasty" - Luke Hodge and Jarryd Roughead as priority picks. They then changed the rules on priority picks making them much harder to come by. Compromised drafts due to expansion clubs made it impossible to catch up.

Western Bulldogs 2016 - umpiring interference. The bye which severely diminished any advantage for being top 4.

Richmond 2017 - Undeserved home ground advantage against a higher ranked team. Cotchin takes out Shiel with a head high bump, concussing him and turning the prelim. Not suspended.

Melbourne - So bad for so long that the AFL, the administrators of the game, took over and stabilised the club, even appointing their own coach and succession planning. Training wheels premiership.

The only legit flags were Collingwood in 2010 and maybe the last 2 Richmond ones.
Why is the Collingwood win legit when Hawks' isn't?


Also, I really don't think it's a Victorian clubs thing, because with COLA (Swans/Lions) and merger assistance (Bears-->Lions), it's just the way the AFL operates (ie playing favourites and trying to orchestrate flags for their chosen clubs, based on growing the game and making more $$s).

They supposedly want a "fair" competition, but then fu** around with the rules and make it fairer for some clubs than others. We all hate the Crows, but if the Demons received the same type of punishment for apparent tanking as Adelaide did for the Tippett saga, it's really difficult to imagine them winning a flag yesterday.
 

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