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Northalives

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It was a stupid idea to overthrow the democratic Mossadegh government in the first place but I think Iran would be a much better place under a secular government and so do many Iranians, so short of war, any foreign policy directed towards that outcome is intelligent, no?
No. The 20th century Iranian epoch has dictated what Iran is and what it will be for a very long time because the the vast majority of Iranians want it to be so.

The referendum of 1979 in which 3/4 of the population turned out to vote and 100%, for all intents and purposes, said that Iran is what they want it to be.

Western ideas of democracy and how countries should operate are paternalistic at best and downright subversive in many instances.

Under Mossadegh, Iran was a beacon of what Muslim countries could have been in that part of the world but the CIA and Britain wanted the Pahlavi dynasty to rule so as to rape Iran of it's resources in the typical, colonial way of doing things and what eventuated, was one of the most brutal, corrupt and barbaric regimes of the 20th Century. Amnesty International said the Shah's regime Iran had the "highest rate of death penalties in the world, no valid system of civilian courts and a history of torture which is beyond belief." In the seventies, there were 50,000 political prisoners in Iran at any one time and the regime was spending 2 billion dollars ANNUALLY purchasing US weapons; thats well over 11 billion dollars ANNUALLY in today's money and George senior and his mates were right in the thick of it.

The 20th century barbarism directed towards Iran and it's people shaped the Iran of today and any attempt to "influence" Iran in any way whatsoever is a further obscenity to add to the obscenities of the past. Leave Iran to Iranians.

If you really want a sense of how unintelligent and the west is when it comes to Iran, then the incredibly stupid line of, "you are either with us or against us" from George Junior after the September the 11th atrocities showed just how moronic he and the USA are and how completely lacking in diplomacy these imbeciles are.

Iran held candlelight vigils for the victims, they observed a minutes silence at soccer matches. The Iranian people and the government were appalled at what had happened just as the vast, vast majority of the Muslim world did and here, ironically enough, was the greatest opportunity for a new, peaceful direction for the world at large with just about all the world's peoples and governments coming together to prosecute the cause for peace but the ignoramus George Junior, egged on by daddy and daddy's friends came out with, "you are either with us or against us"! How in f**k's name could Iran join the cause for peace when Uncle Sam, who had been the chief architect of the terror inflicted upon the Iranian people during the Shah's reign, how could the leaders of Iran say to the Iranian people, "we are on America's side now."?

Leave Iran alone and the "many" Iranian's that want a secular government, they have absolutely no idea of how Iran came to be what it is today and they are only stooges for western capitalism and imperialism.
 

Fat Yak

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Iran held candlelight vigils for the victims, they observed a minutes silence at soccer matches. The Iranian people and the government were appalled at what had happened just as the vast, vast majority of the Muslim world did
I call BS!!! I was at the Perth airport ready for a red eye flight to Singapore when 9/11 happened. There were 20 or so taxi drivers cheering, applauding and laughing every time they played it on the TV until they were told to fu** off.
 

herculez09

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I call BS!!! I was at the Perth airport ready for a red eye flight to Singapore when 9/11 happened. There were 20 or so taxi drivers cheering, applauding and laughing every time they played it on the TV until they were told to **** off.
Given the usual demographic of taxi drivers is Indian, I find this somewhat unlikely.
 

Northalives

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You sound like you listen to the Leftist media and CNN for all your news.

I bet you are an Age reader and watch the ABC as well.

So, you believe that Hussein was just a puppet, and had no say in killing all those people?

How do you know that there were NO WMD? Because critics of the Iraq War said so?

I bet if Bill Clinton had invaded Iraq, he wouldn't have copped half the flak because the Leftie media loved him.

I know it is cool to bag conservatives, and to dismiss any sins of the Left. I bet you bought what Daniel Andrews was selling as well, hook, line and sinker.

Lefty media would love gullible people like you.
Grow up you twerp!

You have absolutely no idea of what is going on in this world and how we got to where we are. Educate yourself you ignorant prat. Don't fall for the glib one liners and the "goodies versus badies" shit. Just look up the Chechen "rebels" and you tell me if they are the "goodies" or the "badies.

The United Nations had been in Iraq for ten years after the first Gulf war looking for, finding and dismantling any and every military installation, weapons system Iraq had! There was an impenetrable sanction regime placed upon it, impenetrable unless you were Alexander Downer that is. Do you know who Alexander Downer is?

Saddam Hussein was a barbarian and that made him invaluable to the USA because he didn't give a f**k about human life. Go and find out how he became all powerful.

All of those news outlets that you mentioned along with the "right wing" ones, although I can't see how you can say that CNN are "left" nor The Age for that matter, all of those plus Sky News and The Australian and the Daily Dog Turd and The Guardian and Channels 7,9,10 as well as the ABC; I see, hear, look and read as much from all of them as I can: it's the only way to know what is maybe going on and then I undertake my own research.

I don't give a toss about this "leftie"-"righty" bullshit. I make up my own mind and if others reckon that I fall on the "leftie" side or the "rightie" side or anywhere in between, that's their take on things and it does not influence me at all.

Bill Clinton was a f****ng a-hole! He is the earlier, male version of Julie Bishop but in your simple, simple mind, people are either "goodies" or "badies" and if they don't subscribe to what Sky News or The Australian reckon is correct, then they are "lefties".

Get yourself to school, there are still opportunities in this country of ours to get an education and do History. Learn how to embark on your own exploration of what happened in the past and what that has meant for today. Do Australian History/Politics and get an understanding of how our system of government works, how it differs from others and how the political parties/arrangements came to be. Find out about the complex inter relationships of different groups and clans that make up Africa and the Middle East and maybe you will understand that the way we in the west look at things, is vastly different to the way those peoples see things.
 

Northalives

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I call BS!!! I was at the Perth airport ready for a red eye flight to Singapore when 9/11 happened. There were 20 or so taxi drivers cheering, applauding and laughing every time they played it on the TV until they were told to **** off.
Maybe they were just Australian's thinking that the USA got a taste of it's own medicine? Are you seriously suggesting that because some didn't give a rat's arse about what happened on the 11th of September and were even happy about it that the rest of the people who look Arabic or Greek or some other "ethnic" look, are you suggesting that these "20 or so" are representative of all those ethnicities? Surely not?
 

The Passenger

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"As I accomplished all the things I needed to in one term, there was no need for a second..."
One of the best burns in Simpsons history.

Northalives sums up one term George best here. The American war machine will continue marching on no matter who the frontman.
George Senior, George Junior, Clinton, Obama, Carter etc. they are all beholden to the Military establishment and big money, some more than others but nevertheless, they've all had their balls being gripped tightly by the weapons manufactures and big business: that's the real "American Way", not some bullshit fairy tales spun by Rupert and the boys and American Presidents are NEVER elected by a majority of people. How can they be when 50% or so don't vote? We are a democracy, they are a joke!
Why don't you take some control, and pull some of these guys into line, Chief?

Surely making insensitive comments about someone who died shouldn't be allowed.

But then, look who I am speaking to. I mean I have read your comments to Christians and other types you disagree with, and you embody everything that is wrong with BigFooty. I shouldn't expect you to pull other bullies into line. That would make you a hypocrite.
Solid meltdown in this thread. Seen better but still a nice 7/10.
I call BS!!! I was at the Perth airport ready for a red eye flight to Singapore when 9/11 happened. There were 20 or so taxi drivers cheering, applauding and laughing every time they played it on the TV until they were told to **** off.
I wonder if anyone will actually believe this?
 

Bradesmaen

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Given the usual demographic of taxi drivers is Indian, I find this somewhat unlikely.
He's an old, white, low socio economic male.. I'm not surprised that he can't tell the difference between brown people. Also it's a clearly made up story.

At Perth airport for a red eye flight at 9:46pm? Puh-lease. Anything to denigrate people.
 

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smokingjacket

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Leave Iran alone and the "many" Iranian's that want a secular government, they have absolutely no idea of how Iran came to be what it is today and they are only stooges for western capitalism and imperialism.
The millions of people protesting in Iran this year have been led by socialists, students and working class people.

The fact that you feel free to disparage this movement as mere stooges of Western imperialism when they're protesting against rampant economic and gender inequality, namely women being whipped for failing to wear the hijab in public, is pretty revealing of your politics. Zero international solidarity with Iranian comrades, only a pathetic anti-US performative wokeness.
 

herculez09

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There were people of Muslim heritage around the world who celebrated Sep 11 when it happened. Probably not true, but not implausible.
Understandably so. Given the way Americans celebrate invasions, I'd imagine other people would celebrate similar things.

I still think the taxi driver story was a clear fabrication. I doubt they would raucously celebrate it in a public. More of a 'in the privacy of your own home' type of thing.
 

Northalives

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The millions of people protesting in Iran this year have been led by socialists, students and working class people.

The fact that you feel free to disparage this movement as mere stooges of Western imperialism when they're protesting against rampant economic and gender inequality, namely women being whipped for failing to wear the hijab in public, is pretty revealing of your politics. Zero international solidarity with Iranian comrades, only a pathetic anti-US performative wokeness.
Leave Iranian people to work out their problems and they will. We, that is you and I, must stop trying to apply what we think is "good for them". This is why Iran went to a theocratic form of government in the first place - they felt protected by the Mullahs against the capitalist system that used, abused and terrorised them and turned them away from the enlightened Mossadegh and now you are advocating that we interfere again?

I am all for solidarity with Iranian workers but I will not lend my support to western inspired "colour" type revolution.

Iran and the USA along with Britain, France, Germany, China and Russia signed the Nuclear deal in 2015 where Iran disabling a key part of its Arak nuclear reactor and got rid of a whole heap of centrifuges in return for a significant easing of US, and EU sanctions. Relations between the rest of the world, most notably the USA, began to thaw and Iran started making plans for it's future and after Iran had taken steps to restrict it's nuclear activities, a fact confirmed by International Atomic Energy Agency, the USA pulled out of the treaty and the EU also stopped abiding by the treaty and reintroduced sanctions and along with the plunging oil prices, Iran's economy is not going well, hence, the civil unrest.

The problem is that when issues arise or events happen, many people tend to think that the world started at that instant: nothing came before it and therefore, they pour their efforts into standing up for this that or the other thing with no regard whatsoever of how and why an event, an issue has arisen and much of the time, although very well meaning, the efforts of those who seek "justice" are in effect, supporting the perpetrators of the injustices. An example of this is the way that Cuba has been viewed by many people over the years. We look to the "Arab Spring" - prosecuted by the well educated, middle class youth who then were nowhere to be seen when the "revolution" was "successful". Look at the wonderful outcomes of the Arab Spring in Egypt, in Libya, in Syria and look at all the support it got from the well meaning youth in this country.

My point smokingjacket is that I am all for supporting the working class people who fight for a better life and the people that are protesting in Iran now, are not from that CIA inspired "Green Movement", these people are actually the power base of the Iranian regime and the regime will have to take these people seriously. Iran will work through this but what it doesn't need and what the working class people don't need, are outside influences taking advantage of what is an internal domestic problem because the regime will then go to war against these people because of fear that it will be subjected to some kind of coup d'état/invasion.

As for the wearing of hijabs and the like, I will remind you once again that just on 100% of the Iranian people voted to live in an Islamic Republic. Now young people, those that only got the chance to go to University because their elders got rid of the capitalist pigs in power and voted for the Islamic Republic, these young educated kids of the working class, they are the ones doing the protesting and that is good and they should be driving change. What is not good, is covert prodding by western kiddies who drink like fish, f**k like stupid, look like and many of them behave like gangsters, young ladies dressing like hookers and dressing their children like underage call girls, honouring those that get away with fraud ..... you know the types I mean smokingjacket? This type of behaviour is not in keeping with the Iranian culture nor the Republic.

Don't get me wrong, I abhor women being treated like crap, I abhor anyone being treated like 2nd class citizens but I also abhor people who have scant or no regard for cultural sensitivities as they apply in different countries. It is a difficult one, I concede, because all of my sensibilities, all of my conscience, my upbringing says that whipping girls/women in public or anywhere is wrong, as is the death penalty, as is cutting off hands for stealing etc but that is the way that the majority of people in those countries want it to be, you know what I mean? It's like Abbott saying that Islam needs to reform itself - what? That's crusader shit and that is the same thing that I fear will happen again in Iran, that is, the covert undermining of the Iranian Islamic Republic by using the enthusiasm and idealism of the young to cause mayhem and chaos and undermine a Government which we may find quite harsh in the way it governs and not care much for some of it's laws, but it does govern in the way that the vast majority in that country want it to govern and the question is smokingjacket, how do you reckon that the Iranian Government will respond to what it perceives as anarchy? It won't be like The Australian Government(s) would react, it will be very much in keeping with the immensely conservative nature of the Iranian Government and then what will happen? Another excuse for the "coalition of the willing" invading a country and where will that leave the population of Iran?

The best thing we can do to support the people protesting for a better economic life and make no mistake, this is about improving ones economic well being and not anything to do with the theocratic nature of Government, we should support the people of Iran who want a better standard of living by being outraged and protesting against Trump and the EU and others who have made it their aim to undermine economic progress and as I write this, I notice that a suicide car bombing attack has just taken place in the South of Iran near the Pakistan border near where a joint India/Iran project is based to help boost India's and Iran's trade with Afghanistan and Central Asia. Jundallah, (Soldiers of God) have taken responsibility, a shadowy Sunni organisation with "alleged" links to "fringe" elements within MOSAD and the CIA amongst others.

We have seen these types of events unfold in many countries for many, many years. Can you see the pattern smokingjacket? These genuine protests that are occurring in Iran are in danger of being hijacked by outside influences to destabilise Iran for oil and strategic reasons, not to mention weapons sales. If this "movement" as you call it, has not been highjacked by the usual suspects as yet, then how much do you want to bet that it won't be? If it hasn't already that is.
 

Northalives

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Really? Aside from the rise in morons with blogs and gullible idiots believing them, I would have thought social media has made it harder for certain narratives to be published by certain channels given how easy it is for contradicting evidence to be posted.

The fact people don't really care is a real problem though. Anti-intellectualism in the 80's and 90's gave way to a generation who want to be interested but also just want to be right. Lots of people spanning a wide range of beliefs don't want their world view challenged anymore.
I don't have anything against social media per se but what it allows, is multiple "postings" originating from a single source to be circulated on mass through proxies and then picked up by well meaning but not very well informed people, maybe it's fairer to say people who haven't researched to see if what they are actually saying is correct and of course, it snowballs. How Goebbels would have loved this technology. I would point to the "colour" revolutions and the "Arab Spring" as examples of how facebook and the like have aided and abetted coup d'états.

One of the things that I keep banging on about to my nieces and nephews is that even though the world wide web is fantastic, it does not mean that researching subjects in places like libraries is now moribund and outdated. It is the actual process of researching, of looking at what has been written and from where it was cited and then embarking on exploration that is important. It trains the mind to be inquisitive and to be able to undertake study of a subject/subjects.

The world wide web and social media feeds into the "fast", "want it now" materialistic culture that is afflicting much of the world. It is a type of intellectual laziness.
 

smokingjacket

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Leave Iranian people to work out their problems and they will. We, that is you and I, must stop trying to apply what we think is "good for them". This is why Iran went to a theocratic form of government in the first place - they felt protected by the Mullahs against the capitalist system that used, abused and terrorised them and turned them away from the enlightened Mossadegh and now you are advocating that we interfere again?

I am all for solidarity with Iranian workers but I will not lend my support to western inspired "colour" type revolution.

Iran and the USA along with Britain, France, Germany, China and Russia signed the Nuclear deal in 2015 where Iran disabling a key part of its Arak nuclear reactor and got rid of a whole heap of centrifuges in return for a significant easing of US, and EU sanctions. Relations between the rest of the world, most notably the USA, began to thaw and Iran started making plans for it's future and after Iran had taken steps to restrict it's nuclear activities, a fact confirmed by International Atomic Energy Agency, the USA pulled out of the treaty and the EU also stopped abiding by the treaty and reintroduced sanctions and along with the plunging oil prices, Iran's economy is not going well, hence, the civil unrest.

The problem is that when issues arise or events happen, many people tend to think that the world started at that instant: nothing came before it and therefore, they pour their efforts into standing up for this that or the other thing with no regard whatsoever of how and why an event, an issue has arisen and much of the time, although very well meaning, the efforts of those who seek "justice" are in effect, supporting the perpetrators of the injustices. An example of this is the way that Cuba has been viewed by many people over the years. We look to the "Arab Spring" - prosecuted by the well educated, middle class youth who then were nowhere to be seen when the "revolution" was "successful". Look at the wonderful outcomes of the Arab Spring in Egypt, in Libya, in Syria and look at all the support it got from the well meaning youth in this country.

My point smokingjacket is that I am all for supporting the working class people who fight for a better life and the people that are protesting in Iran now, are not from that CIA inspired "Green Movement", these people are actually the power base of the Iranian regime and the regime will have to take these people seriously. Iran will work through this but what it doesn't need and what the working class people don't need, are outside influences taking advantage of what is an internal domestic problem because the regime will then go to war against these people because of fear that it will be subjected to some kind of coup d'état/invasion.

As for the wearing of hijabs and the like, I will remind you once again that just on 100% of the Iranian people voted to live in an Islamic Republic. Now young people, those that only got the chance to go to University because their elders got rid of the capitalist pigs in power and voted for the Islamic Republic, these young educated kids of the working class, they are the ones doing the protesting and that is good and they should be driving change. What is not good, is covert prodding by western kiddies who drink like fish, f**k like stupid, look like and many of them behave like gangsters, young ladies dressing like hookers and dressing their children like underage call girls, honouring those that get away with fraud ..... you know the types I mean smokingjacket? This type of behaviour is not in keeping with the Iranian culture nor the Republic.

Don't get me wrong, I abhor women being treated like crap, I abhor anyone being treated like 2nd class citizens but I also abhor people who have scant or no regard for cultural sensitivities as they apply in different countries. It is a difficult one, I concede, because all of my sensibilities, all of my conscience, my upbringing says that whipping girls/women in public or anywhere is wrong, as is the death penalty, as is cutting off hands for stealing etc but that is the way that the majority of people in those countries want it to be, you know what I mean? It's like Abbott saying that Islam needs to reform itself - what? That's crusader shit and that is the same thing that I fear will happen again in Iran, that is, the covert undermining of the Iranian Islamic Republic by using the enthusiasm and idealism of the young to cause mayhem and chaos and undermine a Government which we may find quite harsh in the way it governs and not care much for some of it's laws, but it does govern in the way that the vast majority in that country want it to govern and the question is smokingjacket, how do you reckon that the Iranian Government will respond to what it perceives as anarchy? It won't be like The Australian Government(s) would react, it will be very much in keeping with the immensely conservative nature of the Iranian Government and then what will happen? Another excuse for the "coalition of the willing" invading a country and where will that leave the population of Iran?

The best thing we can do to support the people protesting for a better economic life and make no mistake, this is about improving ones economic well being and not anything to do with the theocratic nature of Government, we should support the people of Iran who want a better standard of living by being outraged and protesting against Trump and the EU and others who have made it their aim to undermine economic progress and as I write this, I notice that a suicide car bombing attack has just taken place in the South of Iran near the Pakistan border near where a joint India/Iran project is based to help boost India's and Iran's trade with Afghanistan and Central Asia. Jundallah, (Soldiers of God) have taken responsibility, a shadowy Sunni organisation with "alleged" links to "fringe" elements within MOSAD and the CIA amongst others.

We have seen these types of events unfold in many countries for many, many years. Can you see the pattern smokingjacket? These genuine protests that are occurring in Iran are in danger of being hijacked by outside influences to destabilise Iran for oil and strategic reasons, not to mention weapons sales. If this "movement" as you call it, has not been highjacked by the usual suspects as yet, then how much do you want to bet that it won't be? If it hasn't already that is.
Apologies, with all the anti-imperial ranting I was under the impression you considered yourself a leftist.
 

Northalives

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Apologies, with all the anti-imperial ranting I was under the impression you considered yourself a leftist.
Look. I tried to explain that I am and have always been a defender of workers and their rights. I also tried to explain that what is happening in Iran at the moment may not be all that it seems.

Anyone that knows me will tell you that they consider me to be leftist and on some occasions, quite appreciably so but at the same time, I confound their thoughts about me because on some issues, I seem more of a right winger although to me, I just see things the way I see things; others put labels on me.

I have been around for many decades and I have seen how the imperialism of the left and the right works. I see patterns emerge that are all too familiar and I will not apologise for making my thoughts and feelings known about things and events that concern me.

I am glad that you picked up on my conciliatory language because I can only but admire your principled stand on the plight of those doing it tough in Iran. I share your concerns about that sector of the community but I , unlike you it seems, have a suspicious, some could say cynical view about rallies and protests in countries that are, for all intents and purposes, in a state of perpetual war and even though some of these protests may be genuine, in countries that are targeted by hostiles, these protests are ripe for commandeering.
 

Financialpanther

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Has social media improved humanity or has it dumbed us down? I think the latter because reading YouTube/Facebook comments, or Twitter chains, make me lose a few brain cells.
I don’t think it’s dumbed us down rather it brought everyone’s loose uncle and his ramblings out in the open (not being confined to Christmas Day lunch). Everyone is able to discount weird uncle frank and his opinion then and can do so now (just have more to ignore).
 

Catters 070911

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Grow up you twerp!

You have absolutely no idea of what is going on in this world and how we got to where we are. Educate yourself you ignorant prat. Don't fall for the glib one liners and the "goodies versus badies" shit. Just look up the Chechen "rebels" and you tell me if they are the "goodies" or the "badies.

The United Nations had been in Iraq for ten years after the first Gulf war looking for, finding and dismantling any and every military installation, weapons system Iraq had! There was an impenetrable sanction regime placed upon it, impenetrable unless you were Alexander Downer that is. Do you know who Alexander Downer is?

Saddam Hussein was a barbarian and that made him invaluable to the USA because he didn't give a f**k about human life. Go and find out how he became all powerful.

All of those news outlets that you mentioned along with the "right wing" ones, although I can't see how you can say that CNN are "left" nor The Age for that matter, all of those plus Sky News and The Australian and the Daily Dog Turd and The Guardian and Channels 7,9,10 as well as the ABC; I see, hear, look and read as much from all of them as I can: it's the only way to know what is maybe going on and then I undertake my own research.

I don't give a toss about this "leftie"-"righty" bullshit. I make up my own mind and if others reckon that I fall on the "leftie" side or the "rightie" side or anywhere in between, that's their take on things and it does not influence me at all.

Bill Clinton was a f****ng a-hole! He is the earlier, male version of Julie Bishop but in your simple, simple mind, people are either "goodies" or "badies" and if they don't subscribe to what Sky News or The Australian reckon is correct, then they are "lefties".

Get yourself to school, there are still opportunities in this country of ours to get an education and do History. Learn how to embark on your own exploration of what happened in the past and what that has meant for today. Do Australian History/Politics and get an understanding of how our system of government works, how it differs from others and how the political parties/arrangements came to be. Find out about the complex inter relationships of different groups and clans that make up Africa and the Middle East and maybe you will understand that the way we in the west look at things, is vastly different to the way those peoples see things.


So, you don't subscribe to the notion of "goodies vs baddies" then?

Okay, so if someone molests a child, does that mean you don't see that person as a bad person, since, in your universe, there are no "goodies" or "baddies".

To say that I can't say that there are "good guys" and "bad guys" means that you believe in relativism, and believe that any act can only be judged as good or bad by those who are judging it. Morality is fluid and doesn't exist, have I got that right?

So then how can you condemn George Bush, as, since you live in a world where there are no "good" or "bad" people, his actions actually then are neither good nor evil, but based on whether you agree with them or not. See how that works.

You, on one hand, make out that good and evil doesn't exist, yet then condemn a President for doing something you see as "evil". Also, war can't be considered a good or bad thing, then, and so condemning people for starting a war or defending themselves in war is moot, since, under what you said, there are no just wars, but then there can't be any unjust wars either.

Either you have a moral code, and subscribe that there are people who do the right thing, and those who do the wrong thing, or you say that there are no "goodies" or "baddies" (in an effort to minimize Saddam Hussein's and Osama Bin Laden's atrocities and war crimes), and so therefore, you still can't be angry at Bush, since the Iraq War was only what he thought was right, in his opinion, and not in yours, rather than an actual act of preventing further evil from occuring. See how that works.
 

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