Preview Rnd 2 - Carlton v Melbourne Saturday 13th June 4.35PM @ Etihad

[Jeremias]

"I'm not sure any of those traits are quantifiable, particularly to those not in the inner sanctum of the club." Here is a trait I expect of an excperienced player who is supposed to be a leader - when your team is getting hammered and is the best part of 6 goals down without it even scoring crack in and win a contest ball and lay a couple of tackles. Set a standard. Newnes didn't do that in round 1. I didn't see anything that indicated it in the pre-season either.

Again, what you expect from these guys is not necessarily the same as what the club expects.

Did you see Newnes shirk any contests? I'm prepared to stand corrected, but I didn't.

I saw a player who despite a pretty ordinary overall game provided plenty of run and carry. Which is exactly what he's there to do out on a wing.

"We absolutely did not bring Fasolo to the club for leadership purposes" Just for the experience and maturity then, definitely didn't bring him in to play reserves and yet that is where he ended up pretty quickly.

We're not really comparing the two are we?

Newnes has been a regular at AFL level for over a decade. Never a star but generally a good, solid contributor for a decent side. Seemingly a well liked and respected leader, and had a contract offer to remain at the Saints.

Fasolo was at the other end of the spectrum. He was on the footy scrap heap. A well liked character but someone who wasn't consistent, wasn't a leader, but was capable of the brilliant. Had well documented issues also.

They're not even remotely similar.

There are plenty of player able to take Newnes spot - if he doesn't turn things around quick smart he will go the way of Fasolo.

That's great, so Newnes' addition throws down a real challenge to these players.

Let's hope they rise to that challenge.

 

[TerryWallet]

This deck chair/promising youth dichotomy needs to be abolished ASAP.

How many games have Cuningham or LOB or Dow been completely off pace and largely undeserving of their spot in the team? I’d say plenty.

These aren’t guys who have been starved of opportunity; they are youngish players who have had a good taste of AFL and need to be raising their personal standard in line with our improvement as a team.

Until they start performing at a level consistent with their experience we shouldn’t be guaranteeing them games.

Not nearly as many times as Newnes. It's just that he's only been largely off the pace and underserving once for us as yet. Overall he's been that way much longer than Cuninghan, Dow or LOB.

Why should Newnes be guaranteed a game anymore than these blokes? He's hardly played a decent game for 3 years.

 

[Red Bull]

Not nearly as many times as Newnes. It's just that he's only been largely off the pace and underserving once for us as yet. Overall he's been that way much longer than Cuninghan, Dow or LOB.

Why should Newnes be guaranteed a game anymore than these blokes? He's hardly played a decent game for 3 years.

This is the point.
If Newnes was delivering like a Curnow or a Jones he’d be worth his place in the team.
But he hasn’t been for quite some time and in no way deserves a game over our highly rated and improving youth that are our future.

 

[TerryWallet]

This is the point.
If Newnes was delivering like a Curnow or a Jones he’d be worth his place in the team.
But he hasn’t been for quite some time and in no way deserves a game over our highly rated and improving youth that are our future.

Pretty sure there's gonna be 6 on the bench this year now. So everyone will get a better go of it now. If Newnes can add something, that will be great. But the narrative that he "deserves" a game but a Cuningham or LOB or Willo or Dow don't bewilders me.

 

[Jeremias]

Pretty sure there's gonna be 6 on the bench this year now. So everyone will get a better go of it now. If Newnes can add something, that will be great. But the narrative that he "deserves" a game but a Cuningham or LOB or Willo or Dow don't bewilders me.

I don't think anyone is saying that.

Competition for spots is a great thing. At the very least it'll force players to step up across the board if they want a spot in the senior side.

 

[TerryWallet]

I don't think anyone is saying that.

Competition for spots is a great thing. At the very least it'll force players to step up across the board if they want a spot in the senior side.

I agree about the competition for spots. I'm not anti Newnes. I hope he can play well if given a chance. I just don't think he's much chop and am including him as one of the ones who needs to step up. He really needs to.

 

[Accidental genius]

Pretty sure there's gonna be 6 on the bench this year now. So everyone will get a better go of it now. If Newnes can add something, that will be great. But the narrative that he "deserves" a game but a Cuningham or LOB or Willo or Dow don't bewilders me.

club wants to win as many games as possible and you cant do that too often (as we saw in boltons time) with a team full of developing draftees....need to get balance right

 

[norway blue]

I don't think anyone is saying that.

Competition for spots is a great thing. At the very least it'll force players to step up across the board if they want a spot in the senior side.

Yeah I agree . Whoever gets picked for round two in The Navy Blues better be on their game .


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[JohnnyFontane90]

This is the point.
If Newnes was delivering like a Curnow or a Jones he’d be worth his place in the team.
But he hasn’t been for quite some time and in no way deserves a game over our highly rated and improving youth that are our future.

I'm not sure the one game he's played for carlton where he was okay (not great) but performed better than setterfield and dow is enough of a sample size to make the case that he's 'not delivering' and we should gift the games to 'highly rated youth'.

He's got a mature body and AFL grade tank so let's give a few more games to learn to play with his new teammates and see if his outside run can contribute to the team.

The only other real competitor for his place that didn't play round 1 is LOB but the fact that setterfield (a pure inside mid) was preferred on the wing to LOB suggests that he's not quite there yet physically or mentally (in terms of understanding running patterns etc)

 

[TerryWallet]

club wants to win as many games as possible and you cant do that too often (as we saw in boltons time) with a team full of developing draftees....need to get balance right

Those Bolton era draftees are no longer developing draftees. Some are developed, some are nearly developed.

 

[Accidental genius]

I'm not sure the one game he's played for carlton where he was okay (not great) but performed better than setterfield and dow is enough of a sample size to make the case that he's 'not delivering' and we should gift the games to 'highly rated youth'.

He's got a mature body and AFL grade tank so let's give a few more games to learn to play with his new teammates and see if his outside run can contribute to the team.

The only other real competitor for his place that didn't play round 1 is LOB but the fact that setterfield (a pure inside mid) was preferred on the wing to LOB suggests that he's not quite there yet physically or mentally (in terms of understanding running patterns etc)

great points and well explained.

 

[Accidental genius]

Those Bolton era draftees are no longer developing draftees. Some are developed, some are nearly developed.

which developed draftee is being starved of opportunity?

 

[La Dispute]

Dow and O’Brien are all of 20yo ?
They are highly rated and need the game time and development as they improve.
Newnes at 27yo offers no more than these guys and won’t improve.

So what? They are now in their 3rd season after being given every opportunity to succeed and making no inroads in their second years at the club.

This is part of the problem with our fanaticism with high draft picks - we expect too much from them, can’t objectively evaluate them, and don’t even consider the possibility they might not be that good and could even miss completely.

That whole 2017 top end is looking shaky, and shows being the best of your age group at 18 is no guarantee of being the best then at age 20, or 25.

We don’t need Newnes to improve - he is what he is: a dependable role player, like Casboult, or Gibbons, or E. Curnow.

It’s some of our early draftees who need to start showing a whole lot more.

 

[Red Bull]

I'm not sure the one game he's played for carlton where he was okay (not great) but performed better than setterfield and dow is enough of a sample size to make the case that he's 'not delivering' and we should gift the games to 'highly rated youth'.

He's got a mature body and AFL grade tank so let's give a few more games to learn to play with his new teammates and see if his outside run can contribute to the team.

The only other real competitor for his place that didn't play round 1 is LOB but the fact that setterfield (a pure inside mid) was preferred on the wing to LOB suggests that he's not quite there yet physically or mentally (in terms of understanding running patterns etc)

The last 3 years of his career before being let go by St.Kilda is a fair sample size though.
Again, if he’s performing like Curnow or Jones, there’s no argument ... but he isn’t and hasn’t been for quite some time.
Let’s hope he finds a new lease of life but at 27, not many improve.
We’ve invested plenty in our rated youth and they need the opportunity to improve and repay.

 

[La Dispute]

Not nearly as many times as Newnes. It's just that he's only been largely off the pace and underserving once for us as yet. Overall he's been that way much longer than Cuninghan, Dow or LOB.

Why should Newnes be guaranteed a game anymore than these blokes? He's hardly played a decent game for 3 years.

That’s very rich, and not even remotely true.

He was a solid contributor for a number of years at St Kilda until he stagnated somewhat, and younger players were prioritised as the Saints realised their list build had plateaued and they needed to inject young players into a half-baked list out of necessity.

He is going to be subjected to scrutiny like anyone in our best 22, but he played a solid first round and that’s all you can expect from him until he is pushed out.

 

[thylacine60]

kicked possibly the worst goal ever seen by a carlton player...........

 

[Red Bull]

So what? They are now in their 3rd season after being given every opportunity to succeed and making no inroads in their second years at the club.

This is part of the problem with our fanaticism with high draft picks - we expect too much from them, can’t objectively evaluate them, and don’t even consider the possibility they might not be that good and could even miss completely.

That whole 2017 top end is looking shaky, and shows being the best of your age group at age 18 is no guarantee of being the best then at age 20, or 25.

We don’t need Newnes to improve - he is what he is: a dependable role player, like Casboult, or Gibbons, or E. Curnow.

It’s some of our early draftees who need to start showing a whole lot more.

Are you putting the pen through 20yo’s ?
They are still every chance to improve and be dependable contributers for many years.
Sorry, can’t say the same for Newnes unfortunately.

 

[TerryWallet]

which developed draftee is being starved of opportunity?

None as yet. And i'd like to keep it that way. Game by game, month by month, year by year, the development will progress. We are nearly through it. Don't wanna stall it, especially in a year where there is no reserves.

Would i like a couple of real handy 27yo's to slot in the side?... absolutely. But do i wanna hinder progress for Jack Newnes?...not particularly. I just don't think he makes us any better than any of the 20-23yo's mooted to make room for him.

With 6 on the bench this year, the discussion is really moot though. There is room for both types now.

 

[Accidental genius]

None as yet. And i'd like to keep it that way. Game by game, month by month, year by year, the development will progress. We are nearly through it. Don't wanna stall it, especially in a year where there is no reserves.

Would i like a couple of real handy 27yo's to slot in the side?... absolutely. But do i wanna hinder progress for Jack Newnes?...not particularly. I just don't think he makes us any better than any of the 20-23yo's mooted to make room for him.

With 6 on the bench this year, the discussion is really moot though. There is room for both types now.

who do you believe newnes is keeping out of team?

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

I've pencilled this in as a win from the start of the year.

 

[Jeremias]

I've pencilled this in as a win from the start of the year.

I didn't, but having lost just the one game through to the end of May I've got a pretty good feeling about this one.

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

Touché my friend

 

[La Dispute]

Are you putting the pen through 20yo’s ?
They are still every chance to improve and be dependable contributers for many years.
Sorry, can’t say the same for Newnes unfortunately.

Who’s putting a pen through them?

They aren’t fresh-faced 18 year olds straight out of the TAC system, they are third year players who may not reach any great heights but get a pass mark because they are high draft picks and in the grand scheme are younger players.

It’s no longer 2018, when exposure to senior football for the sake of development was at an absolute premium. It’s time for these guys to at least start breaking even and add something constructive to the team.

 

[The Flying Doormat]

you have just convicted yourself of unequivical bias against newnes - you don't like him and anything he does will be judged as less than worthy - you will be returned to the dungeon forthwith until such time as the governor sees fit to release you - until then, may god have mercy on your soul.....strawman, fmd....

Points deducted for spelling error.

 

[Red Bull]

Who’s putting a pen through them?

They aren’t fresh-faced 18 year olds straight out of the TAC system, they are third year players who may not reach any great heights but get a pass mark because they are high draft picks and in the grand scheme are younger players.

It’s no longer 2018, when exposure to senior football for the sake of development was at an absolute premium. It’s time for these guys to at least start breaking even and add something constructive to the team.

Newnes is contributing no more than these 20yo’s as a recycled 27yo.
It’d be fair to say the scope for improvement and the higher standard could be expected to come from the former.
These young men are nearly there, let’s stay the course.