Preview Rnd 4 - Carlton v Essendon Sat 27th June 7.40PM @ MCG

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cookie monster

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He might not be ready but it's a good opportunity - if we still want the three talls - to play him IMO. Cas and McGovern are in good form and the smalls are doing their job at the moment, so not sure we need another one to replace McKay. We'd have the option of shielding TDK from the ruck and just playing as a forward. That would probably help as far as match fitness and conditioning go for a young player like him.


12. Tom De Koning

Tommy will be better for the run. He’s been out of action for a bit and hasn’t had a big block of training behind him either. We saw him leap and jump and do all the things that Tom De Koning does. It’ll be good for him to get his confidence back: he split his time 70-30 between ruck and forward.
This says to me "was very raw in first game back, needs an extended run at reserves level to gain match fitness and confidence"

Not a chance he gets selected for Saturday
 

Coona Blues

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Philp (or Stocker) might need to be banging down the door for free multiple weeks maybe 6-7 before he gets a debut. This isn't a bad thing. Just makes him/them hungrier. Or it should.

I doubt we gift games while the season is still alive for us. We are at the stage where every game (bar a couple) should look winnable for us on paper.

Teague wants to win. Now.

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It is not gifting. The kid has earned it. Physically, he is like Rowell, he is ready to go. Trained well preseason, impressed in the practice matches and
then utilised the lockdown downtime to make himself even more ready. Did you read 2 goals and 7 tackles in a half last week? His underage trajectory
matched Oliver who was ready from day one, except that Philp is an absolute jet physically and no slouch on the endurance front. We still have some
role players, and some older players who should be strategically managed for multiple reasons. Keeping status quo leaves us an improving, but limited
side. Incorporate the elite characteristics of selected kids (when ready) and we improve...…..quickly.
 

JustaBattler

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Q4 last week was Q1 the previous week - nothing has changed for the side really except one close loss V one close win. All teams have to weather momentum shifts but allowing another side free run for a whole quarter is a serious concern and it is continuing to happen - that is on field leadership.

Newnes | Setterfield | Cuningham are the blokes with things to prove - the blokes that should be looking over their shoulders at the emergencies named each week and SOJ best learn to kick a goal as a forward because quite frankly - that is a forward's job.

The team is FAR from settled in my books anyway - that 4th quarter was diabolically bad against Geelong - structures went to sh*te and on-field leadership as far as protecting corridor was the missing ingredient.

Williamson did enough to keep his possie - the 4 named above are on shaky ground with Fisher/Dow/LoB/Kennedy/Stocker/Philp/Honey all pressing.

Harry is a forced change - you dont go one less marking goal kicker to satisfy midfield weakness - you replace weak links in midfield - so Philp as a midfield replacement and Kennedy have to be good chances.

SPS best learn to be as cool without ball in hand as he is with ball in hand- not a natural tackler is SPS - serious weakness if you want to put your hand up as a starting HBF - but then again he is learning the defender caper I guess- which is underestimated bunch of mongrel skills in one on ones. TWhat surprised me was how heavy footed he is as a defender needing to make a tackle V as an attacker with ball in hand in congestion - kinda like the kid who likes to be chased but refuses to chase.
 

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HARKER

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The team is FAR from settled in my books anyway - that 4th quarter was diabolically bad against Geelong - structures went to sh*te and on-field leadership as far as protecting corridor was the missing ingredient.

Williamson did enough to keep his possie - the 4 named above are on shaky ground with Fisher/Dow/LoB/Kennedy/Stocker/Philp/Honey all pressing.

Harry is a forced change - you dont go one less marking goal kicker to satisfy midfield weakness - you replace weak links in midfield - so Philp as a midfield replacement and Kennedy have to be good chances.

SPS best learn to be as cool without ball in hand as he is with ball in hand- not a natural tackler is SPS - serious weakness if you want to put your hand up as a starting HBF - but then again he is learning the defender caper I guess- which is underestimated bunch of mongrel skills in one on ones. TWhat surprised me was how heavy footed he is as a defender needing to make a tackle V as an attacker with ball in hand in congestion - kinda like the kid who likes to be chased but refuses to chase.
I don't think you're wrong but in the most, the backline will settle quickest and the reason why may just be - Docherty
Form the little you can see watching a screen, Weitering seems to have taken on a lot more responsibility recently. Weitering was brilliant in the way he organised the backline and then himself, to creep forward in his TAC year. That confidence is back now and he's taking chances on his own accord.

The midfield, other than Cripps and ECurnow is a worry.
We can rattle off as many names as we want, but the hierarchy has not been able to be established after Cripps and 30y.o. ECurnow.
Yes, Walsh is playing on the wing but after that, it's all a large question mark for now.

The forward line, we just can't get our players in the right frame of mind and with the right fitness.

This is why I see us still having inconsistencies across the year.
 

Ambrosia

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Times have changed for Fisher, largely because there was a role change, forced upon him.
I've picked up from interviews that neither Fisher nor Dow like being played forward. I don't think it's because they're sulking about it, as much as they know they won't be as effective playing there.

If Fisher was available though, I'd sooner he was played through the centre and Martin forward.
That's a much better bet for mine, than the other way round and I feel we'll see this in the not too distant future.

I keep saying it, but it's what's best for the whole that matters. Get the best possible balance across the park, somehow lends itself to getting the best possible results for the team.
By far and large, our young mids must be playing midfield now, not 'educated' in how to play roles they're not familiar with., unless the traits are there for them to be successful in those roles.

e.g. Stocker, SPS and Philp in the backline makes sense. Dow, Fisher and Setterfield, not so much.
This is coming from a bloke with plenty of Carlton supporting friends so discuss the baggers quite a bit. What you’re proposing is what did Bolton in. Bolton gave big midfield minutes to your Dow/Setterfield types and tried to shoe horn Curnow forward. Teague takes over and puts your best midfielders in the midfield and the results follow.

Moving Martin forward (he’s your 2nd/3rd best mid) to accomodate Dow/Fisher would be more of the same. Take the draft pick number out of it and you’d see Gibbons is the one who is next in line for midfield minutes imo.

Fisher is a bit of a different case. Clearly has AFL talent but at his height and body size he’s gonna have to add the ability to play forward or else he’ll never fulfil his potential.

Maybe I’m harsh on Dow but for me I’d be cutting your losses and trying to turn him into some sort of tagger or lockdown back pocket at this stage.
 

TerryWallet

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If i'm to guess on the team this week it would be 1 change. Philp for McKay.

Harry has been hitting up well and not been a threat close to goal yet. JSOS is our 2nd best/smartest hit up forward so is the best replacement for Harry's role. Don't like the idea of 3 medium forwards in JSOS, Mitts and Kennedy.

Philp was 1st Emerg last week, so means he is next cab off the rank. Looking forward to seeing him, and if anyone mentions "gift game to a young bloke" again.........

If Philp brings speed and natural tackling(which he does) he can improve us.
 

HARKER

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This is coming from a bloke with plenty of Carlton supporting friends so discuss the baggers quite a bit. What you’re proposing is what did Bolton in. Bolton gave big midfield minutes to your Dow/Setterfield types and tried to shoe horn Curnow forward. Teague takes over and puts your best midfielders in the midfield and the results follow.

Moving Martin forward (he’s your 2nd/3rd best mid) to accomodate Dow/Fisher would be more of the same. Take the draft pick number out of it and you’d see Gibbons is the one who is next in line for midfield minutes imo.

Fisher is a bit of a different case. Clearly has AFL talent but at his height and body size he’s gonna have to add the ability to play forward or else he’ll never fulfil his potential.

Maybe I’m harsh on Dow but for me I’d be cutting your losses and trying to turn him into some sort of tagger or lockdown back pocket at this stage.
Things should change over the course of two years though.
Yes, Bolton was using Dow and Fisher extensively in 2018 and both those players were picking up ~20 possession per game before Teague took over.

It may change this week, but upon my viewing I don't recall Gibbons taking one midfield stoppage last week.......and the same for Murphy, after his efforts the week prior.

The CFC have to start getting genuine midfield minutes into some of these players this year, or else we'll walk into next year asking: Who are our best mids after Cripps and ECurnow and that wouldn't make for a great outcome.
 

Ambrosia

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Things should change over the course of two years though.
Yes, Bolton was using Dow and Fisher extensively in 2018 and both those players were picking up ~20 possession per game before Teague took over.

It may change this week, but upon my viewing I don't recall Gibbons taking one midfield stoppage last week.......and the same for Murphy, after his efforts the week prior.

The CFC have to start getting genuine midfield minutes into some of these players this year, or else we'll walk into next year asking: Who are our best mids after Cripps and ECurnow and that wouldn't make for a great outcome.

Dow got over 20 touches 5 times under Bolton in 2019,15 or under 4 times and never got over 25. 20 should be your bare minimum as a full time mid in the AFL.

Why not commit to Martin as a full time mid? He at least has played good footy there.
 

HARKER

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Dow got over 20 touches 5 times under Bolton in 2019,15 or under 4 times and never got over 25. 20 should be your bare minimum as a full time mid in the AFL.

Why not commit to Martin as a full time mid? He at least has played good footy there.
Dow averaged around 20 possessions from memory. It may have been 19, but it wasn't less than 10, as it was under Teague.
There were sensible reasons for the change of role, but at the end of the day - Dow is not a forward

That may come about with Martin, but I see it as being a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. It's not the answer.
Martin as a high half forward is much more dangerous to me.
 

HBF

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Fantasia is touch and go for this game and after another negative test, McKenna could potentially play?
Let's hope not, both those guys are quick and have X-factor...them staying out will be a big boost.

Essendon's main threat to us is their speed...they already have guys like Tippa/Saad/McGrath who are speedsters. Shiel & Smith are no slouches either. Let's hope Fantasia & McKenna don't join them.
He's no chance.
The Victorian Chief medical officer said he had to quarantine for 14 days because of the positive test last weekend.
 

Blue__Balls

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Q4 last week was Q1 the previous week - nothing has changed for the side really except one close loss V one close win. All teams have to weather momentum shifts but allowing another side free run for a whole quarter is a serious concern and it is continuing to happen - that is on field leadership.

Newnes | Setterfield | Cuningham are the blokes with things to prove - the blokes that should be looking over their shoulders at the emergencies named each week and SOJ best learn to kick a goal as a forward because quite frankly - that is a forward's job.

The team is FAR from settled in my books anyway - that 4th quarter was diabolically bad against Geelong - structures went to sh*te and on-field leadership as far as protecting corridor was the missing ingredient.

Williamson did enough to keep his possie - the 4 named above are on shaky ground with Fisher/Dow/LoB/Kennedy/Stocker/Philp/Honey all pressing.

Harry is a forced change - you dont go one less marking goal kicker to satisfy midfield weakness - you replace weak links in midfield - so Philp as a midfield replacement and Kennedy have to be good chances.

SPS best learn to be as cool without ball in hand as he is with ball in hand- not a natural tackler is SPS - serious weakness if you want to put your hand up as a starting HBF - but then again he is learning the defender caper I guess- which is underestimated bunch of mongrel skills in one on ones. TWhat surprised me was how heavy footed he is as a defender needing to make a tackle V as an attacker with ball in hand in congestion - kinda like the kid who likes to be chased but refuses to chase.
Curious as to how you come to the conclusion that Willo did enough to keep his spot but Newnes/Setterfield/Cunners are on thin ice?

Because on output and involvement, they were all pretty level, and while Willo is coming from further back with his long road to recovery, I'm not sure that counts for a whole lot when the focus is and should be on winning this week. Had a few nice moments, and a few ordinary ones, a pretty "standard" game for a developing player.

Cunningham as a midfield rotation did well enough - he looks particularly dangerous around the stoppages and opens the game up for the running mids to get some space. And he's shown he has a knack for creating opportunities up forward as well. Consistent involvement is always going to be the target, but as a dual role player he offers plenty.

Setters seemed to be given a defensive role, and did it reasonably well. I imagine it's probably something the club want him to do for his own development, spending time on blokes like Dangerfield.

Not sure about Newnes, I'd like to see more from a player of his experience, but I'm not sure what role he was expected to play.

All of Newnes, Willo and Setters spend time on the wings, so I think it's one of these three that comes out of the side. Newnes is the one most likely to have a big game by virtue of his maturity and experience, Willo has the most upside in the long term, while Setters is the one most suited to getting a run-with role if needed. I think it's a horses for courses decision rather than just one of form.
 

Macca43

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Curious as to how you come to the conclusion that Willo did enough to keep his spot but Newnes/Setterfield/Cunners are on thin ice?

Because on output and involvement, they were all pretty level, and while Willo is coming from further back with his long road to recovery, I'm not sure that counts for a whole lot when the focus is and should be on winning this week. Had a few nice moments, and a few ordinary ones, a pretty "standard" game for a developing player.

Cunningham as a midfield rotation did well enough - he looks particularly dangerous around the stoppages and opens the game up for the running mids to get some space. And he's shown he has a knack for creating opportunities up forward as well. Consistent involvement is always going to be the target, but as a dual role player he offers plenty.

Setters seemed to be given a defensive role, and did it reasonably well. I imagine it's probably something the club want him to do for his own development, spending time on blokes like Dangerfield.

Not sure about Newnes, I'd like to see more from a player of his experience, but I'm not sure what role he was expected to play.

All of Newnes, Willo and Setters spend time on the wings, so I think it's one of these three that comes out of the side. Newnes is the one most likely to have a big game by virtue of his maturity and experience, Willo has the most upside in the long term, while Setters is the one most suited to getting a run-with role if needed. I think it's a horses for courses decision rather than just one of form.
"Not sure about Newnes, I'd like to see more from a player of his experience," Understatement of the year.

It is bloody hard to tell his role from just watching on TV but if he was playing a defensive role;
I would expect him to lay more than 1 tackle (for the third week in a row)
I would expect that more than 1/4 (2 from from 8) of his possessions were contested

I really find it hard to see what his "mature body" is providing us that O'brien wouldn't.

" Newnes is the one most likely to have a big game by virtue of his maturity and experience, "" - since round 6 last year Newnes has had just 1 game above 20 touches (21) and 5 under 10.

Philp for McKay, O'Brien for Newnes are the changes for mine.
 

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KohPhi

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This is coming from a bloke with plenty of Carlton supporting friends so discuss the baggers quite a bit. What you’re proposing is what did Bolton in. Bolton gave big midfield minutes to your Dow/Setterfield types and tried to shoe horn Curnow forward. Teague takes over and puts your best midfielders in the midfield and the results follow.

Moving Martin forward (he’s your 2nd/3rd best mid) to accomodate Dow/Fisher would be more of the same. Take the draft pick number out of it and you’d see Gibbons is the one who is next in line for midfield minutes imo.

Fisher is a bit of a different case. Clearly has AFL talent but at his height and body size he’s gonna have to add the ability to play forward or else he’ll never fulfil his potential.

Maybe I’m harsh on Dow but for me I’d be cutting your losses and trying to turn him into some sort of tagger or lockdown back pocket at this stage.
Good post. Agree with everything you say bar the Dow opinion. I'd be persevering with him for a little while longer. Has good speed, evasion abilities and most importantly, get's to where the pill is.
His kicking is dreadful more often than not and I believe this (and the impact of this on his mind) is his greatest obstacle.
If his kicking efficiency doesn't improve, then there is no way in hell he'll be going anywhere near the back pocket.
 

Fridge16

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How ‘deep’ is their midfield?Can you name their starting 5/6?


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Midfield is deep but without a superstar like Cripps. We will be running Shiel, Merrett, Stringer, McGrath, Smith, Langford, Parish, Tipungwuti through there mainly. No absolute A graders like Cripps but plenty of B graders. McGrath, Langford and Parish were all really good against Sydney so if they continue that the midfield is a lot stronger, if they drop away its pretty weak.

Add to that the dinosaur that is Bellchambers and you guys will win the midfield battle.
 

Own The Future

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Surprised no-one has mentioned Lang as a possible inclusion.
I agree the like-for-like replacement for Harry would be either TDK or Kennedy, but it appears Lang is highly regarded by the match committee - and he kicked 3 nice goals in last week’s scratch match.
Please let me state that I don’t think he is the best inclusion - I’d much rather unleash Philp if we go small for tall - but I think Lang is in the mix.
 

Fridge16

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Fantasia is touch and go for this game and after another negative test, McKenna could potentially play?
Let's hope not, both those guys are quick and have X-factor...them staying out will be a big boost.

Essendon's main threat to us is their speed...they already have guys like Tippa/Saad/McGrath who are speedsters. Shiel & Smith are no slouches either. Let's hope Fantasia & McKenna don't join them.
McKenna definitely will not play.

Fantasia will likely play as he just missed out last week so should be right this week. It's probably a positive for Carlton, he is usually a slow starter coming back from injury and takes a few games to get going.
 

Ambrosia

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How ‘deep’ is their midfield?Can you name their starting 5/6?
I wouldn’t say we are particularly deep compared to the whole comp but I’d say it is a strength over the Blues. That being said Martin’s form in the midfield and Heppell getting injured has certainly evened things up there.
 

Jeremias

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I feel terrible for Dow - he suffered the same fate under Bolton as Weitering, but unlike Jacob he hasn't had the chance to go back and dominate in the reserves.
That's not right.

Dow was developing well under Bolton, but hasn't had the same opportunities under Teague.
 

F_therest

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McKenna definitely will not play.

Fantasia will likely play as he just missed out last week so should be right this week. It's probably a positive for Carlton, he is usually a slow starter coming back from injury and takes a few games to get going.
So hard to get a read on this game...

  • Both sides are missing some key players.
  • Carlton could have the advantage of playing last week and getting that continuity while Essendon's preparation has been interrupted this week.
  • However some people would argue it's a positive that Essendon got a 'rest' while Carlton had a tough, down-to-the-wire game vs Geelong which no doubt would taken a bit of an emotional and physical toll.
  • Carlton could have the advantage in stoppages and key position players (though McKay out evens that up) but Essendon's speed is definitely going to worry Carlton.

Really could go either way...it's down to which team is switched on and can capitalise on their opportunities.
 

Macca43

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Surprised no-one has mentioned Lang as a possible inclusion.
I agree the like-for-like replacement for Harry would be either TDK or Kennedy, but it appears Lang is highly regarded by the match committee - and he kicked 3 nice goals in last week’s scratch match.
Please let me state that I don’t think he is the best inclusion - I’d much rather unleash Philp if we go small for tall - but I think Lang is in the mix.
Please no - how many times do we have to try something before we realise it isn't any good.

Surely the likes of Obrien, Stocker, Philp, Honey and Kennedy (plus Fisher and Dow when fit) deserve a chance before we go back to Lang.
 

F_therest

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That's not right.

Dow was developing well under Bolton, but hasn't had the same opportunities under Teague.
I think he means Dow under Teague is experiencing a similar situation to Weitering under Bolton, being played out of position and dropped a few times.
But Dow has less of a way to earn his way back into the team...though technically right now he's missing due to injury.
 

Coops93

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That's not right.

Dow was developing well under Bolton, but hasn't had the same opportunities under Teague.
Depends on what you mean by developing. He was getting mroe of the ball but was shanking it worse than in his rookie season. So better in one part but worse in the other.

Definitely had his role diminished under Teague, though. Forward/wing clearly isn't his game, on ball or nothing really for Dow imo.
 

Own The Future

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Please no - how many times do we have to try something before we realise it isn't any good.

Surely the likes of Obrien, Stocker, Philp, Honey and Kennedy (plus Fisher and Dow when fit) deserve a chance before we go back to Lang.
I am with you.
I’m just saying don’t be surprised if Lang is named.
When JSOS was a late out in Round 2, I don’t think anyone on this forum (including me) suggested Lang.
He didn’t really do much in the game, but the fact the MC chose him shows they rate him higher than us supporters do.
I’d love to have O’Brien’s run in the team. I’d even suggest having LOB on the wing, move Newnes to the backline and free SPS up to play forward or on ball - allowing the resting mid to play forward.
Very different to our usual setup, but I’ve long said we are a tad too top heavy forward and back.
 

BoundbyKreuze

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Fantasia is touch and go for this game and after another negative test, McKenna could potentially play?
Let's hope not, both those guys are quick and have X-factor...them staying out will be a big boost.

Essendon's main threat to us is their speed...they already have guys like Tippa/Saad/McGrath who are speedsters. Shiel & Smith are no slouches either. Let's hope Fantasia & McKenna don't join them.
Shouldn’t McKenna be suspended for breaching Covid protocols anyway. DHHS are still treating him like a positive test as of yesterday.
 
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