Preview Rnd 6 - Carlton v Hawthorn Sunday April 28th 3.20PM @ UTAS - Team Post #1331

[murphster]

IMO when we talk about 'talls' that refers to guys who you wouldn't feel comfortable handballing to under pressure. i'd have no problem handballing to charlie or JSOS. it's only really levi, mckay and maybe weitering that are the true talls. jones, mcgovern, charlie, jssos, kreuzer and marchbank are so athletic that their height really doesn't matter. IMO the height of the team gets skewed badly when one of lobbe of phillips is in there.

despite being taller and less athletic than charlie i think JSOS showed much more midfield craft than charlie ever has.

Yeah I agree

 

[Blue Chip Pass]

Curious when the next full training session is scheduled?
Should get a better idea, of who is in the mix to come in.

 

[Kreuz Control]

Think we can win? I'm certain of it. I can't see how we can lose.
Think we have The Hawks covered in most areas, given player availability and the game we're starting to play.

Just have to be careful to shut down at least one of Breust or Wingard.

Could Ed tag Wingard? Bump and niggle him all day.

 

[Aphrodite]

Curious when the next full training session is scheduled?
Should get a better idea, of who is in the mix to come in.

Saturday 20th April - 10:30am - 11:15am (Captain's Run)

 

[RudyBlue]

You've been hanging around Soapy V too much.

Dont share your confidence, genuine 50-50

I reckon it all comes down to the midfield battle and maintaining posession.

In the first 4 rounds, our only mids that were good for 25+ were Cripps, Murph and Walsh. On the weekend, Fisher and SPS joined the party, along with a handy 21 from Gibbons (Kreuz smashing it in the ruck also helped enormously). If this next tier of mids can continue to have high output games, we are a much better chance of keeping the ball and getting adequate supply to our forwards.

The acid needs to be put on Fisher and SPS as third year mids with classy attributes, that 25+ is their standard.

 

[RudyBlue]

JSOS is not taller than Charlie.
Also JSOS is the more agile of the two when it comes to changing direction and attacking ground balls. JSOS is good below his feet and you often see him at the bottom of packs and able to shovel handpasses out...you don't see that from Charlie as often.

I wouldn't say Jack is more agile than Charlie but he has some serious strength through the core and probably a better footy brain.

This makes him hard to dislodge from the ground ball (both strong and tenacious) and allows him to make some really good decisions in congestion

 

[Arr0w]

We have actually been really good this year at not letting the opposition lock us in defence and get repeat entries, I think the new rule has helped right across the competition in terms of repeat entries, and sides getting stuck in defence is no where near as prevalent as it was last year. The extra space makes a huge difference I think.

I don't think the new rules help a defensive unit, if anything it hampers rebounding 50 as there are more players in a defensive half as well as no +1 etc defensively. As you mentioned though, it just highlights how good we have been this year, our back 6 are a standout

 

[AndyWalkersGirl]

Curious when the next full training session is scheduled?
Should get a better idea, of who is in the mix to come in.

They’re doing an open session at UTAS Stadium (Launceston) on Saturday afternoon before the game on Sunday.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

What there missing is that JSOS is actually taller than Charlie and less agile to boot so we played with 4 talls last week as well, but because we used the ball better it worked like a treat which it would of against the Gold Coast if we used it better in that game. It’s a no brainer.

Been thinking this too. Charlie imo is meant to play Jsos role, rotating mid and forward, he's stronger and more athletic, also has a better tank. Was drafted as as a midfielder that pushes forward and also had one of the best contested marks going around, which is clearly a standout. He's transformed into a tall forward, even though hes actually rather short for a KPF, and quite clearly he loves pushing up the ground and using his kicking skills. In my opinion having him play up the ground would just let him off the chain because he's not going to have someone like Dylan grimes playing on him who beats him in strength, at the very worst he might get someone like De Boer, who would more likely go to one of our full time mids. Charlie is a nightmare match up for most blokes to defend, and if hes pushing around as a mid and then roams forward, all of the sudden theres an unplanned defender going to him in the heat of the match. Basketballers use the pick and roll to get great match ups, we should do the same...If Charlie is running loose up the field and pushes forward and ends up being defended by the mid who's on him or someone like Jayden Short or Rory Laird, its a goal. He's too big and athletic for any of those blokes to defend him. Dusty and Danger have made this a staple of their game, they push forward and end up having someone like Zaharakis defending them 1 on 1 and take complete advantage of it. Charlie has the ridiculous talent to get by as a full time forward, but he isn't Mckay where he can just stand in a pack and clunk a mark, he needs to run and jump at the ball, he needs space to beat his defenders. Eventually others like Degoey will play more midfield minutes and they will be exploiting good match ups when they push forward, and if McKay and McGovern can hold down the fort in the forward line there's no reason we couldn't try it.

I forget which coach it was that said it, might have been Amos... whoever it was, there was a video in pre season talking about how the boys are tracking, and he said that Charlie had been running in the middle every now and then in match sim, and he just wouldn't stop getting the ball so they were keeping him in there for much longer than expected this pre season because he was just killing everyone. This could have something to do with why he's not finding his spots as a forward as much this year... but not really the point. Clearly if he is racking up the ball going against blokes like Cripps, Kennedy, Murph, Dow etc... career Midfielders... he clearly has the natural ball finding that we could test it out for a game of two while Levi's found some form. I've watched games back from last year and at times Charlie is playing in the middle and he gets 3 or 4 touches in a couple of minutes, really effective touches too.

I wouldn't be fussed with all this stuff about playing too tall either because in reality... our small forwards have next to 0 impact on games most of the time right now, these development stages are where we should be finding out how we can utilize players and for me Charlie is our most versatile player. Gibbons got tried as a forward, hasn't worked out and they pushed him into the middle and exploded on the weekend. All this stuff about Charlie carrying a niggle... this and that... whenever he's on the field hes been one of our top runners... so that just suggests he isn't finding good spots because we have 2-3 other key forwards running and leading into each others space. So i'd say its worth playing him between the arcs for a full game to see how it goes.

 

[Kruezing]

Saturday 20th April - 10:30am - 11:15am (Captain's Run)

I’ll go warm up the time machine ...

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

JSOS is not taller than Charlie.
Also JSOS is the more agile of the two when it comes to changing direction and attacking ground balls. JSOS is good below his feet and you often see him at the bottom of packs and able to shovel handpasses out...you don't see that from Charlie as often.

Jsos is listed at 194cm, Charlie 192. Other points valid tho, but haven't seen Charlie in that role yet.

 

[Bordertoon]

Earlier in this thread I admitted to feeling nervous about how we might navigate what I consider to be the tricky psychological waters that follow on from a win that we’ve been waiting and fighting so long to achieve. To explore my unease, I went back to our results from last year and noticed that we lost by 109 points and 107 points in the two games immediately after our wins, which turned out to be our two worst losses for the year (although we were also flogged by 104 points by Adelaide in the last game of the season).

Although I strongly believe that we’ve come a long way since then, and I don’t think for a second that we’ll be anywhere near as uncompetitive this time around, I’m sure that Bolts and the other coaches will be aware of the threat of a drop-off in our performance following a win, and that they will have set a challenge for the players not to repeat this pattern in 2019. Hopefully forewarned will mean forearmed, and we’ll give an excellent account of ourselves against the Hawks. If we do, then - win, lose, or draw - it will be another sign that we’re tracking well this year, along with our improved percentage and far superior score-against figures.

 

[murphster]

Charlie Curnow may have had sluggish preparation for whatever reason the pre season was not exceptional so his performance has been a little dull.
He’s blessed with natural ability and enormous endurance.
Let’s give the younster a break he’s learning to cope with being an emerging AFL star not easy to do. If he’s ready to go play him, just may turn the corner with the new positive momentum on field.

I actually think Charlie is trying to do to much when he does get the ball and has been since late last year, needs to stop trying to do the exceptional and just get back to what he does best, run, Mark turn kick simple, not try and take players on with baulks and side steps or trying to play on too quickly just run mark turn kick.

 

[Laphroaig]

Personally, I doubt the MC will select Cuners, but if they do, I understand his selection is based around a point of difference

Make that points of difference - which include:

Poise under pressure
Demonstrated ability to work in traffic
Demonstrated ability to turn opportunities into goals
High quality disposal by hand and foot
Ability to contribute useful midfield minutes

We have seen all of these things. While from Polson we have seen electrifying pace and crippling panic.

 

[murphster]

Again I will say, I see Cuners as best 22, but as yet, he has yet to establish himself, that's not an opinion, it is fact

If Russell/MC, believe he is ready now, great

What I prefer, is at some point the weekly revolving door of ins and outs needs to stop. Lose and we want the axe to fall, win and we target the lowest possession count

Most players should be getting blocks of at least 3 games, or so, at any level before considering a change, it is now more about team continuity rather than just one player, playing well or poorly for a game or two

Spot on Arrow, patience and consistency is the way forward.

 

[Bordertoon]

I was more than in Weitering's corner last season and I would not call him slow either, he's just not Liam Jones quick. I don't rate Kennedy all that highly, I think he's backup for Cripps and Dow. Maybe Ed. He doesn't seem to use size and strength at contests, his lateral movements are poor and his leg speed and speed off the mark are poor. His results in the VFL have been above average but numbers wise not what you would expect to see from a good AFL centerman. If he proves me wrong then so be it. Hope he does. The only type of player who would improve our midfield would be someone who's a powerful runner and a good user and he's not that. IMO he will struggle to get a game and may even be floated as a trade option next season. Kennedy needs to reinvent himself as a tagger IMO to get into our side although that is slipping away a bit as Setterfield seems to be taking to run with roles quite well. Who's suggesting his body is not right? He's had a preseason and looks fit, only had a couple of minor injuries from knocks. Any other season he walks into our team, this season he's had a large number of players go past him. Good for us for recruiting and developing well.

I also don't see where we need him. We're 4th in the league for clearances. Our midfield is performing well and brimming with depth and the balance looks great. If anything could be improved it's our outside game and that's more about training and educating the mids and I think we saw us get our outside game right last week.

My jury is still out on Kennedy, but imo you’ve built a pretty strong argument here, which has definitely got me thinking. Thanks for the post

 

[Arr0w]

Make that points of difference - which include:

Poise under pressure
Demonstrated ability to work in traffic
Demonstrated ability to turn opportunities into goals
High quality disposal by hand and foot
Ability to contribute useful midfield minutes

We have seen all of these things. While from Polson we have seen electrifying pace and crippling panic.

Not disputing Cuningham's ability or attributes, none of which was the basis of my post

 

[Blue Chip Pass]

Interesting all the comments on Charlie. From the bits I saw of him when playing, it looked look he wasn't as committed, he was a bit fumbly and made some poor decisions. This might all be completely false perception.
Maybe that's what others hear are feeling aswell.
BUT, there is no doubt of his huge talent. I agree with some, play him on the wing high HF. Let him take the game on. He is another one of our X factor players. If he's fit play him.
PS. leave JSOS in, he was good on the weekend.

 

[rp84]

I reckon it all comes down to the midfield battle and maintaining posession.

In the first 4 rounds, our only mids that were good for 25+ were Cripps, Murph and Walsh. On the weekend, Fisher and SPS joined the party, along with a handy 21 from Gibbons (Kreuz smashing it in the ruck also helped enormously). If this next tier of mids can continue to have high output games, we are a much better chance of keeping the ball and getting adequate supply to our forwards.

The acid needs to be put on Fisher and SPS as third year mids with classy attributes, that 25+ is their standard.

Its up to cripps, kreuz and gibbo to keep feeding sps and fish on the outside.

I'm stoked that cripps worked on developing break away pace BUT we look so much better with him dishing it to SPS at EVERY SINGLE stoppage. I haven't seen such a functional midfield with measured clearances (rather than hack kicks) in navy blue since the mid 90s. Far out it was good to watch.

 

[gardiner stand]

I think there's a decent chance Ed gets squeezed out of our best 22 by the end of this year...certainly by round 1 next year.

Well that my be the case but in flies in the face of the strategy to trade in mature players to support the glut of younger players we have. Fwiw I think he has a place because he has 2 things a lot of our kids don’t have, endurance and muscle. When we start winning consistently then I’m happy for him to step aside and let the new generation take over.

 

[Bordertoon]

I actually think Charlie is trying to do to much when he does get the ball and has been since late last year, needs to stop trying to do the exceptional and just get back to what he does best, run, Mark turn kick simple, not try and take players on with baulks and side steps or trying to play on too quickly just run mark turn kick.

Yeah Murph, depending on the psychology of the individual player, being hyped as “the next big thing” would certainly pose its challenges. On the one hand, you might be inclined to “drink your own bath water”; on the other to feel burdened by the weight of expectation, which might lead to the type of over-trying that you’ve described.

I have no idea if either of these things has contributed to Charlie’s serious drop in form in 2019. Regardless, hopefully his knee settles down soon (worryingly, according to Andy Maher’s Carlton podcast, he had similar concerns as far back as the Geelong Falcons), and he can get a proper foothold in the season.

On a more positive note, isn’t it great that as our list depth improves, while we would like Charlie back ASAP, we’re nowhere near as desperate to see him back as we would have been just a year ago?

 

[gardiner stand]

I don’t think he made it up it’s a pretty common nickname for people named Harry, I myself call him that sometimes during matches.

Whatever you’re comfortable with.

 

[Dadda Dave]

You reckon they’ll get within 2 goals of us?

No..

 

[spry]

I've heard our win called an upset. Well in the betting world maybe it was. A few more wins and the odds will soon change. These parasites arent interested in football, it's all about taking money off people.

I think the punters are ‘slow to react’ as they offer their margins based on public expectations not on reality and make money on the people tipping the assured outcome not on people tipping the ‘upset’
Call me nuts


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[murphster]

Been thinking this too. Charlie imo is meant to play Jsos role, rotating mid and forward, he's stronger and more athletic, also has a better tank. Was drafted as as a midfielder that pushes forward and also had one of the best contested marks going around, which is clearly a standout. He's transformed into a tall forward, even though hes actually rather short for a KPF, and quite clearly he loves pushing up the ground and using his kicking skills. In my opinion having him play up the ground would just let him off the chain because he's not going to have someone like Dylan grimes playing on him who beats him in strength, at the very worst he might get someone like De Boer, who would more likely go to one of our full time mids. Charlie is a nightmare match up for most blokes to defend, and if hes pushing around as a mid and then roams forward, all of the sudden theres an unplanned defender going to him in the heat of the match. Basketballers use the pick and roll to get great match ups, we should do the same...If Charlie is running loose up the field and pushes forward and ends up being defended by the mid who's on him or someone like Jayden Short or Rory Laird, its a goal. He's too big and athletic for any of those blokes to defend him. Dusty and Danger have made this a staple of their game, they push forward and end up having someone like Zaharakis defending them 1 on 1 and take complete advantage of it. Charlie has the ridiculous talent to get by as a full time forward, but he isn't Mckay where he can just stand in a pack and clunk a mark, he needs to run and jump at the ball, he needs space to beat his defenders. Eventually others like Degoey will play more midfield minutes and they will be exploiting good match ups when they push forward, and if McKay and McGovern can hold down the fort in the forward line there's no reason we couldn't try it.

I forget which coach it was that said it, might have been Amos... whoever it was, there was a video in pre season talking about how the boys are tracking, and he said that Charlie had been running in the middle every now and then in match sim, and he just wouldn't stop getting the ball so they were keeping him in there for much longer than expected this pre season because he was just killing everyone. This could have something to do with why he's not finding his spots as a forward as much this year... but not really the point. Clearly if he is racking up the ball going against blokes like Cripps, Kennedy, Murph, Dow etc... career Midfielders... he clearly has the natural ball finding that we could test it out for a game of two while Levi's found some form. I've watched games back from last year and at times Charlie is playing in the middle and he gets 3 or 4 touches in a couple of minutes, really effective touches too.

I wouldn't be fussed with all this stuff about playing too tall either because in reality... our small forwards have next to 0 impact on games most of the time right now, these development stages are where we should be finding out how we can utilize players and for me Charlie is our most versatile player. Gibbons got tried as a forward, hasn't worked out and they pushed him into the middle and exploded on the weekend. All this stuff about Charlie carrying a niggle... this and that... whenever he's on the field hes been one of our top runners... so that just suggests he isn't finding good spots because we have 2-3 other key forwards running and leading into each others space. So i'd say its worth playing him between the arcs for a full game to see how it goes.

Yeah I agree and this week is perfect as we play Hawks so Charlie can line up on the wing on Henderson who has killed us with his tank his marking and his run which is a good match with Charlie’s strengths and Henderson is in great form atm, Walsh on the other wing against Smith, this will go a long way to helping stop there run and offensive drive and improving ours.